We need each other, and it's getting more and more important

[LeSellers]

I'd like to talk about the areas where we need not (and should not) talk about doctrinal differences, but those where our common beliefs and needs require our mutual support and efforts.

There are more, I'm sure, but I see three major aras where we can and must work together:

1) protecting the Family from assaults, political and cultural, on this fundamental insitution of civilization.

2) protecting marriage from simiilar assaults.

3) protecting our freedom to believe and to practice our faiths according to the dictates of our own consciences.

Historically, we LDSs have experienced official oppression, pogroms, and fer shure, we don't want to go through that again. But, as Joseph Smith said, we are just as willing to fight for the rights of a Presbyterian, or a Pentacostal, or a Catholic as for our own.

However, we are not a large church. We need others to help us fight our common battle. And we are far more than willling to help others with their skirmishes and fights, as well.

The first question I propose is how can we work together to attain and regain our cultural right to worship as we choose?

The second question is how can we work together to assure that our children and grandchildren have a chance to raise their children in a world where fathers and mothers are the primary responsible and official leaders of their families?

The third question is similar: how can we work together to retain the status of traditional marriages between men and women as the fundamental element of civilization?

Except to define our common goals and their basis in theology and doctrine, we should not get into tenets and beliefs. For these ends, we are trying to come to an agreement on means and end, of tactics and strategies. We should help each other identify local (or regional) leaders of any church we can who might be helpful in reaching these goals.

How?

I don't know. That's why we're here in this topic.

Letter writing campaigns? Maybe

Common theatrical productions? Interesting.

Musical presentations? Possibly.

So, what are your ideas?

I (and I hope others) await your suggestions and ideas and the discussion of these three questions. If you have additional ways we can assist each other, this is where we can enlarge and build on them.

Lehi

Edited November 13, 2015 by LeSellers

[Guest]

I mentioned recently in another thread that one of our YW leaders used an article here at lds.net to talk with them about how we can support the institution of family. It has some great ideas. The only negative is that there are SO many things, and like your post above, there seems to be a lot to think about and do on this topic. So my question is, what simple, every day things do/can we do to support the family? 

 

Here is the article, for anyone interested:

 

http://lds.net/blog/life/mormon-culture/mormon-house-hubby/attack-on-the-family/

[Guest]

I've been trying to find a specific quote.  Something like:

 

There is far too much work for any one people to do.  The Lord will use all of Christianity to achieve His ends.  So we do not see other faiths as adversaries, but as allies in the great work of the Last Days.

 

 

Then there was Elder Oaks address at Chapman University on interfaith unity:

 

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/elder-oaks-religious-freedom-Chapman-University

[spamlds]

I have a radical position when it comes to these issues.  The solution is to preach the Restoration.

 

I think it was President Hinckley who told the story about feeling ineffective as a missionary.  He became discouraged and thought about giving up and going home.  He and his companion were getting a lot of persecution and not having much success.  They decided that they would avoid controversy and contention by preaching from the Bible and just testifying of Christ until they could build a bridge to people of other faith.  

 

When he prayed about the opposition they received and the lack of success, the answer came to him said that he should be preaching the Book of Mormon, testifying of Joseph Smith and the Restoration.  He and his companion returned to doing this and the Spirit infused their mission and they had success.

 

A lot of well-meaning saints seek to join with other denominations to solve the world's problems.  They fail to realize that one of the chief causes of the problems is the world's rejection of the Restoration.  

 

God has imbued the Restoration with everything we need to save the world from its troubles and establish a place of safety and refuge to which the righteous may gather.  There is no power in ecumenism.  Here's what the world needs to discover from us:

• The Father and the Son appeared to Joseph Smith.
• They told Joseph to "go not after" the other churches; they were all in error.
• An angel was sent by God to deliver the Book of Mormon to Joseph Smith.
• Heavenly messengers restored the keys of he kingdom to Joseph Smith.
• Revelation and the keys continue in the Church today.
• The Church of Jesus Christ is the kingdom of God on the earth today.

No one else but latter-day saints can testify of this.  This is the saving message that God committed to our charge.  Of course, we wish for goodwill from other denominations, but they truly have no power to save the world.  The points above are the saving points of unity.  We love others, but our love can't save them if they reject our testimony.  There is no more effective effort that can be made than to preach the gospel.  Letter-writing and road-shows aren't going to cut it. 

 

Here's what history has shown us.  In the 19th century, before secular progressivism began to corrupt the foundations of civilization, the man-made, creed-based churches tried their best to destroy us.  It was they who could not bear the message of a newly called prophet and felt compelled to destroy him.  The Church has thrived in the tenuous balance between liberal secularism and conservative religionists.  If the pendulum swings too far one way or the other, persecution comes upon us from the side that has the temporary advantage.  Today, that pressure is coming primarily from the left.  Previously, it came from the right.

 

Personally, I don't have any faith that joining with other churches will accomplish anything.  However, it buys us time to preach the Restoration and save souls.  The restored kingdom of God is what ultimately saves civilization from total destruction.

[LeSellers]

There is far too much work for any one people to do. The Lord will use all of Christianity to achieve His ends. So we do not see other faiths as adversaries, but as allies in the great work of the Last Days.

Actually, in our region, there is a long-stnading group of LDSs and other Christians who meet with the Jewish Rabbis in the area to discuss these same kinds of things. We have had conferences with Muslims, too. It's not just Christians who must work together for these ends.

But, for now, we're willing to work with anyone who will work with us. That's most likely other Christians.

Lehi

[zil]

I have a radical position when it comes to these issues.  The solution is to preach the Restoration.

 

...

 

Personally, I don't have any faith that joining with other churches will accomplish anything.  However, it buys us time to preach the Restoration and save souls.  The restored kingdom of God is what ultimately saves civilization from total destruction.

I agree that the solution to every problem is the Atonement of Jesus Christ.  And yes, it's a radical, and true, idea.

 

But I believe joining our efforts with those of people of other faiths does accomplish things (and apparently so to our leaders).  Among those things are positive feelings between members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and others, which only helps in sharing the Gospel.  Buying time is accomplishing something.  Increasing the visibility and influence of those who believe in the teachings of Jesus Christ accomplishes something.  All of these things and more can help people come (closer) to Christ.

 

We can't help others unless we're among them.  We can't diminish Satan's influence unless we're out there, among the same people he's trying to influence, offering a better option.

[The Folk Prophet]

There is no solution to the coming Apocalypse. It will come. It has been prophesied.

 

But...

 

As we well know, in the end, Christ will triumph and put all enemies under his feet.

 

As to the what can we (insert: try to) do?

 

We preach the gospel.

Edited November 13, 2015 by The Folk Prophet

[LeSellers]

I have a radical position when it comes to these issues. The solution is to preach the Restoration.

...

Personally, I don't have any faith that joining with other churches will accomplish anything. However, it buys us time to preach the Restoration and save souls. The restored kingdom of God is what ultimately saves civilization from total destruction.

That all is true, on the level where you are working.

However, it is my calling to reach out to those of other faiths and to find common ground where we can work with them to address at least the three areas of concern noted earlier. I didn't make this up. It came from President Monson (although it is a stake calling: President Wxxxxxxxx didn't make it up, either).

So, my call remains to those who can help address these aras of moral conern in all faiths, or in no faith whatsoever: got any ideas? Know anyone (specifically in the Southeast Denver area)? (If you know someone in Cleveland or Tallahassee, perhaps that would help someone else out there. This is not about me, especially, but I'm not an outgoing guy, so those preachers, ministers, pastors, deacons, elders, or rabbis in SE Denver whom you know would be a great introduction for me. Others will need different resource personnel, but we all need some way to contact them.)

I know father Txxxx at the local Catholic church. At least I've talked to him on the phone. He had an announcement of our Preparedness Fair posted in his Sunday Bulletin. That was a start. But I don'tknow any AoG ministers, nor any Baptist pastors, nor any Rabbis near here. If you do (or in Cleveland or Talla ..., you get the picture), it would be hlepful to know their names and if I could use your name to introduce myself to them.

Lehi

[Guest]

Start with Service Projects.  Those are easy ones.  The Mormons and Catholics in my neck of the woods oftentimes band together for service projects.  Our missionaries work in the Catholic food bank and Catholic lay ministers work at the LDS cannery... among other things.

 

For Veterans Day, we've been rotating the crosses among all the Churches.  The crosses are white crosses with the names of Veterans who have died from our neck of the woods.  We lay them out in a row in an open field with some decorations and have it open to the public for 2 weeks leading to Veterans Day and then host a memorial service on Vets Day.  Last year was the Catholic Church's turn, so they laid out the crosses in this big Catholic Church's backyard.  This year was the Mormons' turn, so we laid out the crosses at the field behind the Stake Center and had all our Scouts among the Stakes do the Memorial service.  Some other denomination will have it next year.

 

Just some suggestions.

[Colirio]

I agree that getting out and serving is a great key.

In our stake, we have started using the app called Just Serve.

Look it up if you haven't already. Lots and lots of ways to serve alongside people of all walks and religious backgrounds.

[Gunner]

I'm curious, does this plan allow room for those of us who don't hold religious ideals to pursue relationships that we don't find objectionable? My question is to be read with the understanding that slippery slope aren't valid considerations for the parameters of this discussion.

[prisonchaplain]

Rev. Jerry Falwell caused a lot of controversy when he invited LDS to join his Moral Majority.  Some disagree, but it can be appropriate to join in common cause on social issues.  It's been happening, but I suspect the scale is quite limited.

[prisonchaplain]

I'm curious, does this plan allow room for those of us who don't hold religious ideals to pursue relationships that we don't find objectionable? My question is to be read with the understanding that slippery slope aren't valid considerations for the parameters of this discussion.

 

Well, to give you an opposite example, Doug Bandow is an Evangelical who writes for Cato Institute.  Cato is Libertarian, and tracks overwhelmingly atheist/agnostic.  So, who's to say that there may be a few atheist/agnostics who see the value of certain social mores, such as the pro-life cause, or opposition to gambling casinos?  One more example...in our opposition to pornography we are finding some traction with feminists, who oppose the degradation of women, and with all kinds of child advocates opposed to the sex trade.

[Byron]

I'd like to talk about the areas where we need not (and should not) talk about doctrinal differences, but those where our common beliefs and needs require our mutual support and efforts.

There are more, I'm sure, but I see three major aras where we can and must work together:

1) protecting the Family from assaults, political and cultural, on this fundamental insitution of civilization.

2) protecting marriage from simiilar assaults.

3) protecting our freedom to believe and to practice our faiths according to the dictates of our own consciences.

Historically, we LDSs have experienced official oppression, pogroms, and fer shure, we don't want to go through that again. But, as Joseph Smith said, we are just as willing to fight for the rights of a Presbyterian, or a Pentacostal, or a Catholic as for our own.

However, we are not a large church. We need others to help us fight our common battle. And we are far more than willling to help others with their skirmishes and fights, as well.

The first question I propose is how can we work together to attain and regain our cultural right to worship as we choose?

The second question is how can we work together to assure that our children and grandchildren have a chance to raise their children in a world where fathers and mothers are the primary responsible and official leaders of their families?

The third question is similar: how can we work together to retain the status of traditional marriages between men and women as the fundamental element of civilization?

Except to define our common goals and their basis in theology and doctrine, we should not get into tenets and beliefs. For these ends, we are trying to come to an agreement on means and end, of tactics and strategies. We should help each other identify local (or regional) leaders of any church we can who might be helpful in reaching these goals.

How?

I don't know. That's why we're here in this topic.

Letter writing campaigns? Maybe

Common theatrical productions? Interesting.

Musical presentations? Possibly.

So, what are your ideas?

I (and I hope others) await your suggestions and ideas and the discussion of these three questions. If you have additional ways we can assist each other, this is where we can enlarge and build on them.

Lehi

Though I appreciate your concerns, I think it important to look to scripture when we have worries.

Jesus tells us 25 “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? 26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27 Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life[a]?

28 “And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? 31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

Now it can be said that this means 'do not worry about worldly things' But I believe it to mean do not worry about anything. That trusting God means that we leave all our concerns with Him. That when challenged by the adversary and those that would do his work, we are to be prepared through resting in the Word of God (read the Bible) That we be fortified through prayer, that we are supported through fellowship and that we are ultimately saved by God.

If we are mindful of these and reminded by our brothers and sisters, then we should set aside our worries and live our lives as believers in Christ Jesus.

If I may offer something that helps me on my walk with Jesus.:

When ever I feel the pains of worry or doubt I pray to God. In my prayer I always do so in Jesus' name and then thank God for granting my prayer. This to fortify my trust in Him.

I will show an example of what I mean in the Lord's Prayer:

Our Father, who art it Heaven,

Hallowed be thy name.

Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done,

On earth as it is in Heaven.

Give us this day our daily bread,

and forgive us our trespasses;

as we forgive those who trespass against us.

Lead us not into temptation,

but deliver us from evil

For thine is the kingdom,

the power and the glory,

for ever and ever ... Amen

Lord I ask all this in Jesus name and I thank you for granting me this ... Amen.

Now I know the last part of the lord's prayer was added via the Anglican Church and the last sentence is mine. But I will tell you this. I am terrified of flying. but when I say this prayer prior to flying I know God will deliver me safely to my destination, no matter if that destination is the one I paid for or the one Jesus paid for.

[LeSellers]

Though I appreciate your concerns, I think it important to look to scripture when we have worries.

Jesus tells us 25 “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? 26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27 Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life[a]?

28 “And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? 31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

Now it can be said that this means 'do not worry about worldly things' But I believe it to mean do not worry about anything. That trusting God means that we leave all our concerns with Him. That when challenged by the adversary and those that would do his work, we are to be prepared through resting in the Word of God (read the Bible) That we be fortified through prayer, that we are supported through fellowship and that we are ultimately saved by God.

You quote correctly, but it is important to know to whom He was speaking. It was not disciples in general. It was to His Apostles.

If everyone followed this counsel, we'd all die of starvation and exposure. Yes, the Lord took a few fishes and loaves and fed a multitude, but He started with a few fishes and loaves. (I am grateful to the boy who brought them. Or, at least for his mother who sent them.)

So, if we need not worry about anything, as you see it, what will happen to the Christians in Syria (if there are any left)? How about the minister of your church? Do you make offerings there?

And what will you do when the government tells you that you can worship in church and at home, but elsewhere, you must keep your faith silent?

Lehi

Edited November 20, 2015 by LeSellers

[zil]

Now it can be said that this means 'do not worry about worldly things' But I believe it to mean do not worry about anything. That trusting God means that we leave all our concerns with Him. That when challenged by the adversary and those that would do his work, we are to be prepared through resting in the Word of God (read the Bible) That we be fortified through prayer, that we are supported through fellowship and that we are ultimately saved by God.

 

Your quote correctly, but it is important to know to whom He was speaking. It was not disciples in general. It was to His Apostles.

If everyone followed this counsel, we'd all die of starvation and exposure. Yes, the Lord took a few fishes and loaves and fed a multitude, but He started with a few fishes and loaves. (I am grateful to the boy who brought them. Or, at least for his mother who sent them.)

Lehi,

 

There is older scriptural precedent for the Lord taking care of the needs of a huge number of people, for a very long time, because they were doing what He wanted them to do (if not always very well).  I'm sure you'll remember it.  Personally, I choose not to rule out this possibility, ever, on any scale.

 

If the entire planet were all doing what the Lord asked of us, I'm not so sure any of us would need to take care of such things.  (I'm not sure we wouldn't, I'm just not sure we would, either.)  I am sure that if we were all living the law of consecration together, the way we ought to, it would be whopping tons easier to take care of the necessities of mortality and we'd all have whopping tons more time to focus on the things of eternity.

 

Finally, there is a difference between "worry about" (which alone can have multiple meanings) and "take care of".  Personally, though I take care of the necessities of mortality, I rarely worry about them (I am blessed that I don't have to, unless I choose to, and I attribute that entirely to God).  But I frequently worry about the necessities of eternity, my shortcomings there, what more I can / will / should do, etc.  The former seems so very unimportant compared to the latter.

 

I'm not confident I know which form of worry Byron meant, but I suspect he meant the "fret over" meaning rather than the "take care of" meaning.

 

FWIW,

zil

[LeSellers]

There is older scriptural precedent for the Lord taking care of the needs of a huge number of people, for a very long time, because they were doing what He wanted them to do (if not always very well).  I'm sure you'll remember it.  Personally, I choose not to rule out this possibility, ever, on any scale.

Yes, "wazzit" did feed the Israelites for forty years. Brigham Young needed quails to feed the Saints, and they appeared. But we have had counsel to prepare for hard times, and to feed our own families, etc. He could do the same, but, while I won't rule it out, I'm not prepared to count on it, either.

 

If the entire planet were all doing what the Lord asked of us, I'm not so sure any of us would need to take care of such things.  (I'm not sure we wouldn't, I'm just not sure we would, either.)  I am sure that if we were all living the law of consecration together, the way we ought to, it would be whopping tons easier to take care of the necessities of mortality and we'd all have whopping tons more time to focus on the things of eternity.

That's a big "if" and we have assurance that it won't happen until the Second Coming.

 

I'm not confident I know which form of worry Byron meant, but I suspect he meant the "fret over" meaning rather than the "take care of" meaning.

I can't know, either, but the Greek scriptures use the word μεριμνάω (merimnaō) which is literally "anxious"; "to seek to promote one’s interests", "caring or providing for". In the context, Jesus said we can't be anxious and add a foot-and-a-half to our height. Makes me think it's more about providing than about worrying.

Finally, we have the added knowledge of 3 Nephi. Jesus was not speaking to the run-of-the-mill Saint: He was speaking directly to the Apostles/Disciples.

Lehi

Edited November 21, 2015 by LeSellers

[zil]

:-) I wasn't disagreeing with you (in case that wasn't clear), only adding that I leave the possibility for a wide variety of divine help with mortal tedium always open.

 

Byron added his own paragraph (the one I quoted from your quote), and I was commenting on his words rather than the scriptural.  I think it scripture it's quite clear the Lord was telling his apostles not to worry by any definition of the word, but instead to focus on their call, and he'd take care of their physical needs.  This was a certainty for them.  I see it as a possibility (or a pattern) for us (dependent on both us and His will).

 

Personally, I see no reason to be anxious about the necessities of mortality (as in: fret, chew fingernails, pace, wring hands).  I do see the need to take care of these things (work, save, prepare, and most importantly, be generous).  And I believe if we're focusing our efforts on our own call (in relation to the gospel), rather than on those mortal necessities*, the Lord will help with the necessities (by enabling us to endure trials, by ensuring our efforts provide sufficient yield, by opening up better opportunities, by increasing our natural capacity, by miraculous means, or anything in between).

 

*In other words, do I go to work every day with my foremost thought being how much money I'll make, how to get a promotion or raise, how to keep from getting fired, etc.(worried about physical needs)?  Or do I go to work every day with my foremost thoughts being about sharing the gospel, showing integrity (even at the cost of getting fired), being honest in my work (rather than stealing my paycheck through laziness or half-hearted effort), etc.; and trusting that if I do what is right, the Lord will take care of what is needed (worried about eternity)?