My Sadness

[Annabelli]

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From another view point (premortal-preexistence): Are we the third that fell with Satan. And the Heavenly Father has given the keys to his kingdom if we accept them. Otherwise, here we are and here we will be.

huh?

Well, did you think the other 2/3's had to come here? They were okay with the way things are.

[sixpacktr]

Annabelli,

How much do you know of the plan of salvation? The whole point of it was to come to the earth and be tested and have a Savior. The 1/3 that rebelled liked things the way they were and didn't want to take the chance of not returning.

You and I are of the 2/3. The 1/3 are those that tempt us.

[Annabelli]

Thanks. I'm glad to be counted into the 2/3's.

The Plan of Salvation is like a faded out sheet washed so many times that the true color can no longer be distinguished and a bunch of people arguing about what color it really is.

I'm content in serving the Lord. All he ask of me is to walk in front of him as a servant clearing the sharp rocks and thorns that bare him harm. He has given me a lantern so all may see his presence.

But all who follow after him shall be lost in the darkness.

I'm not going to sit contently in a church pew holding the Plan of Salvation on my lap waiting for the flagship home.

We are all going to "screw up a little" because we don't have a crystal ball but we are not going to be condemned forever. A helping hand is all we need then we can see the true Plan of Salvation.

[Jason]

That's an interesting thought. What if this is hell, and we're the 1/3 who followed Satan, and Jesus came here to show us the way out?

[Dove]

In reading over these threads, I can't help but think that a lot of the doctrine concerning suffering for our own sins for not being true to Christ is covered in the Doctrine and Covenants. The 76th section is rich in the teachings of who will suffer for their sins and what kingdom they will be assigned.

[Annabelli]

In reading over these threads, I can't help but think that a lot of the doctrine concerning suffering for our own sins for not being true to Christ is covered in the Doctrine and Covenants. The 76th section is rich in the teachings of who will suffer for their sins and what kingdom they will be assigned.

A lady in our college dorm used to bunk in with a six pack on Sunday mornings to watch Oral Roberts. She often made the statement "I don't know what the next life will be like but I hope we get really good reception."

[sixpacktr]

Thanks. I'm glad to be counted into the 2/3's.

The Plan of Salvation is like a faded out sheet washed so many times that the true color can no longer be distinguished and a bunch of people arguing about what color it really is.

I'm content in serving the Lord. All he ask of me is to walk in front of him as a servant clearing the sharp rocks and thorns that bare him harm. He has given me a lantern so all may see his presence.

But all who follow after him shall be lost in the darkness.

I'm not going to sit contently in a church pew holding the Plan of Salvation on my lap waiting for the flagship home.

We are all going to "screw up a little" because we don't have a crystal ball but we are not going to be condemned forever. A helping hand is all we need then we can see the true Plan of Salvation.

So, according to you, those of us that follow Christ are in darkness? Isn't he the good shepherd? Shepherds lead the pack, honey, they don't drive the sheep.

I never said we'd be condemned forever. But there will be those that choose that, and your new-age take on the 'faded sheet' that is the plan of salvation doesn't change that.

Wow, I am more and more amazed at the lack of basic understanding of gospel principles that some have.

[Dove]

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In reading over these threads, I can't help but think that a lot of the doctrine concerning suffering for our own sins for not being true to Christ is covered in the Doctrine and Covenants. The 76th section is rich in the teachings of who will suffer for their sins and what kingdom they will be assigned.

A lady in our college dorm used to bunk in with a six pack on Sunday mornings to watch Oral Roberts. She often made the statement "I don't know what the next life will be like but I hope we get really good reception."

Hi Annabelli

I'm trying to figure out how this relates to my strand? I get that she wasn't getting good reception probably from being drunk, and that would be her problem/responsibility for drinking. But how does that relate to what I said? I guess I need it spelled out~Dove

[Traveler]

Again it is with great sorrow concerning many of you that I send this post to the forum. I regret deeply that so many of you are willing and desirable to worship a G-d that will do evil towards others. So there is no question or misinterpretation – I define “doing evil towards others” as anything that cannot be of eternal benefit for them.

Mostly it seems to be agreed that it is not of benefit to believe falsely in G-d or to believe in false g-ds. Many think that hell will be full of those that had false notions of G-d. It is possible that if you believe that evil can come from G-d that you have a false notion. Please reconsider!!!

I invite all that are interested – to learn of my G-d – from who all good things come. From whom nothing that is evil can come or is ever given. Indeed, there is nothing but that which is good that can or will come from my G-d.

My G-d will reward every good deed done by any man.

My G-d loves all men and is no respecter of persons.

My G-d will not give stones to those that ask for bread.

You can trust and have faith in my G-d to bless with goodness any one, at any place, at any time, that it is possible and will not return evil for any good – ever.

The Traveler

[sixpacktr]

I just read Cleon Skousen's short treatise on the atonement again, found in the back of The First 2000 Years. It makes it very plain about God being an unchangeable and just God, and that he has laws to obey just as we do. He will not impinge upon someone's agency, even if they choose death and hell and the devil, because he cannot do so. He cannot pardon them because of his love, because if he did the very elements that have obeyed his every word because he is ultimately just would revolt against his authority and he would cease to be God. That was why Jesus Christ was so necessary. Not even our HF could save us from the predicament of the fall.

I'm not sure where the problems are coming from in understanding this. I believe that our HF will, as stated in a recent GC, give us the least amount of punishment possible and greatest amount of reward possible, but he still must do as he states or he will no longer be God. D&C 76, as pointed out by Dove, is an excellent example of what the afterlife is like.

Why are some choosing to disagree with these scriptures?

[Annabelli]

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In reading over these threads, I can't help but think that a lot of the doctrine concerning suffering for our own sins for not being true to Christ is covered in the Doctrine and Covenants. The 76th section is rich in the teachings of who will suffer for their sins and what kingdom they will be assigned.

A lady in our college dorm used to bunk in with a six pack on Sunday mornings to watch Oral Roberts. She often made the statement "I don't know what the next life will be like but I hope we get really good reception."

Hi Annabelli

I'm trying to figure out how this relates to my strand? I get that she wasn't getting good reception probably from being drunk, and that would be her problem/responsibility for drinking. But how does that relate to what I said? I guess I need it spelled out~Dove

The intention of this post was meant to show how people imagine the kingdom(s) will be to them. When you go to the Temple, it's what you might imagine the kingdom(s) to be like. (and it sure makes you feel like it.) The lady who watched TV Church, like a lot of people do, might think of the kingdom(s) to be something like television programming.

As for reception, in large cities with massive buildings and large college campus', you do not get free TV reception because the building structures block the frequencies. You have to have cable TV, satellite, etc.

Otherwise, you get a fuzzy picture with a humming noise that muffles the sound.

[the Ogre]

I just read Cleon Skousen's short treatise on the atonement again, found in the back of The First 2000 Years. It makes it very plain about God being an unchangeable and just God, and that he has laws to obey just as we do. He will not impinge upon someone's agency, even if they choose death and hell and the devil, because he cannot do so. He cannot pardon them because of his love, because if he did the very elements that have obeyed his every word because he is ultimately just would revolt against his authority and he would cease to be God. That was why Jesus Christ was so necessary. Not even our HF could save us from the predicament of the fall.

I'm not sure where the problems are coming from in understanding this. I believe that our HF will, as stated in a recent GC, give us the least amount of punishment possible and greatest amount of reward possible, but he still must do as he states or he will no longer be God. D&C 76, as pointed out by Dove, is an excellent example of what the afterlife is like.

Why are some choosing to disagree with these scriptures?

Another scripture comes to mind: Mormon 9: 2-5.

2) Behold, will ye believe in the day of your visitation—behold, when the Lord shall come, yea, even that great day when the earth shall be rolled together as a scroll, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, yea, in that great day when ye shall be brought to stand before the Lamb of God—then will ye say that there is no God?

3) Then will ye longer deny the Christ, or can ye behold the Lamb of God? Do ye suppose that ye shall dwell with him under a consciousness of your guilt? Do ye suppose that ye could be happy to dwell with that holy Being, when your souls are racked with a consciousness of guilt that ye have ever abused his laws?

4) Behold, I say unto you that ye would be more miserable to dwell with a holy and just God, under a consciousness of your filthiness before him, than ye would to dwell with the damned souls in hell.

5) For behold, when ye shall be brought to see your nakedness before God, and also the glory of God, and the holiness of Jesus Christ, it will kindle a flame of unquenchable fire upon you.

Regarding Hell and The Traveler's sorrow, I think there will be plenty of opportunity to improve up to a certain point: the final judgement. At that time "he that is filthy shall be filthy still; and he that is righteous shall be righteous still; he that is happy shall be happy still; and he that is unhappy shall be unhappy still" (Mor 9: 14). There will be a point of spiritual stasis, by this I mean we will cease to change spiritually, except for those who have attained the very highest levels of the Celestial Kingdom. At this point, all those who cease growing spiritually will be in state of hell in that they will know without any doubt of what they could have achieved. This state will be awarded based on our personal agency.

Dove, in another thread, has mentioned what it is to live in a hell-like state (as has Yed). Her agency was pulled from her and she has endured the greatest pains a woman can and still this will be nothing to the hell we will experience if we deny the will of G-d.

Aaron the Ogre

[Traveler]

Some of you are starting to see the light. Those that end up forever "suffering" in hell are only those that prefer and want to be there by their own choice - Not by the will or intent of G-d. It is G-d's will that every man be saved - even if they have sinned. Some have the whole concept backwards - G-d will not force anyone to stay forever in hell against their agency, desire and choice.

There are 5 grand principles that govern how G-d deals with man

1. G-d will not do for man what man can do for himself. To the saints of G-d this is known as the good works of faith and preparing by faith, covenant, commandment and ordinance to live with and in the good kingdom of G-d.

2. G-d will do for man what man cannot do for himself. This is often called the grace and salvation of G-d.

3. G-d will not do for man that which is not of eternal benefit for man. To the saints of G-d this is known as the doctrine that G-d is not the source of or the G-d of evil.

4. G-d will do for man that which is of eternal benefit for man. To the saints of G-d it is known that G-d is good.

5. G-d will not do for man anything without the concurrence of man. This is known as the agency of man.

Whenever a person cannot connect with G-d it is because they expect G-d to violate one of these grand principles. If a person thinks they have connected with G-d outside of these principles - they have not and very likely if they think they have made some connection it is with some other entity.

The Traveler

[Dror]

Dror,

I agree with most of your post, in that God is as merciful as he can be, but he is also just, and so he too is bound by rules.

There is a hell. There has to be. 1/3 of our HF's children are tasting that right now. There will be more (few, granted, but still there are some). Agency is the overriding force in the universe, right up there with faith, IMO, and there will be those that will bow the knee and confess Jesus is the Christ and say "but I don't want you to save me" and will be cast out. The Sons of Perdition will experience hell for eternity because they don't want the Savior to save them.

Exactly. If those people suffer, it is not because God wants them to or because He's condemning them, it is because they choose to reject Him (and keep choosing to).

Repentance is the key. If we are repenting, we are worthy of forgiveness from our HF.

If we were worthy of forgiveness, we wouldn't need a Savior. God forgives us because of His grace and lovingkindness, not because we merit it.

These may seem like small points, but to me, they say something important about God's character.

Dror

[prisonchaplain]

I suppose I "remain in the darkness." Here is why.

1. The five grand principles (which may have some grounding in Scripture) do not trump direct passages from God's Word.

2. By definition, God is just and good and all-powerful. Therefore, his actions are likewise, whatever they be. If we believe these things about God, then we believe the same about what he does.

3. The warnings I see in Scripture do not mesh well with the non-threatening mercy you wish to convey. The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. We reap what we sow. The rich man had his blessings on earth, while Lazarus had misery--in the afterlife the tables are turned. Revelation is full of apocalyptic plagues and punishments for the enemies of God.

Perhaps, in the end, you'll be proven right. All the bluster of God is temporal, and everyone will end up eternally pleased. But, looking at the big picture, that's not what I hear God saying. In Noah's Ark, in the Exodus, in Israel's repeated battles with enemies, in the passion of Christ, in the persecution of Christians in the early church--throughout Scripture--it's good against evil, God againt the Enemy--with blessings for those who follow, and cureses for those who rebel.

I'm not a "fire and brimstone" teacher. However, imho, the whole counsel of God does include warnings to flee from God's wrath, ironically into the hands of his loving mercy.

[CrimsonKairos]

I agree, PC.

And Dror, we can become worthy of blessings, but we are worthy through Christ. :)