President Uchtdorf's Saturday morning conference address

[estradling75]

The problem with the "assumption" that more Woman will make it then Men is that it is based on how things "appear" now (aka Women are active in larger numbers) and that is a crappy way to make prediction of who is going to be exalted (Which according to Elder Oaks is an unrighteous judgement no matter how you do it)

 

To make the claim that God created a defective gender (a gender inherently less likely to be make it IS a defect) makes God a respecter of persons preferring one Gender over another.  Same general idea holds if the imbalance exist but God didn't create it, in that case, God being a righteous and fair judge has to compensate for the aspect that is out of the control of the individual.

[The Folk Prophet]

We don't disagree often, but here we definitely do. 

 

How can you disagree? You don't even know what I mean.

 

Alrighty then...now that meetings are over and I have a bit of time, let me explain myself and then you can legitimately disagree or not, eh?

 

Regarding polygamy, though, I've never understood why so many Latter-day Saints find it troubling or mysterious?

 

I'll agree with the troubling thing -- it should be a simple matter of faith, like anything, to get past "troubling". But mysterious? There is just so much we do not understand about it, that how can it be anything but mysterious?

 

Look at it this way. It's clear (at least to me) from the scriptures, prophetic discourses, and empirical evidence, that women generally are much more inclined to be righteous than men are. The practical result of this fact is that many more women than men will qualify for Exaltation.

 

I'm not sure what scriptures, prophetic discourses, or empirical evidence you are using, but it strikes me that this is a one of those calling-the-elephant-trunk-a-snake things. We simply do not see the big picture when it comes to righteousness. That women are more inclined to keep going to church in no ways means they are on their way to exaltation. Empirically speaking, women have their strengths that men do not, and they also, decidedly, have their weaknesses that men do not.

 

But for the sake of argument, I'll just acquiesce this point, as it's not really what I'm taking issue with. (And, as much as I don't necessarily agree with the reasoning logic, I do tend to agree that, factually, there will ultimately be more women than men saved in the Celestial Kingdom--simply by virtue of reverse logic based on the existence of polygyny).

 

And why would they be willing to do that? Because the number of men who survive the Second Coming will be a fraction of the number of women who will survive it, and if those women wish to have a family they'll have no other choice!

 

I'd say that it has been and will be typical that in times of trauma, and particularly war, that the men are killed off and women are not. I'd say it more reasonably to presume that Armageddon (and the other wars and rumors of wars) will be a greater cause of more women than men in the final days.

 

But, of course, many of those who are killed in said wars will not, necessarily, have had the opportunity to hear the gospel, and we have no idea if they'll accept is in spirit prison, so....really this has no bearing on the state of the Celestial kingdom numbers.

 

Moreover, historically, more boys than girls die under the age of 8. And all of these are saved in the Celestial Kingdom. So it's not really so cut and dry as you want to seem to make it.

 

I believe the principle of plural marriage is an example of God's tender mercies. He is simply looking out for many of his righteous daughters who, because of circumstances beyond their control, will find themselves single and with no prospect of marriage, and hence would not be able to enjoy the blessings of Exaltation otherwise.

 

Okay...now to the point where I consider the thinking behind it poorly considered.

 

If one looks at the big picture of eternity and the reality of the existence of God's offspring we have one of two options considering gender. The first is that the male to female ratio is chance -- God has no control over the gender of His spirit children. The second, of course, is the alternate -- God chooses.

 

If we consider the first option, then it is also sheer fortune that the numbers add up so that more women end up exalted. There but for fortune, there could be more men. If your thinking is right (that polygamy is a tender mercy), then the reasonable existence of polyandry must be an option. Maybe not in this round of children for this earth. But somewhere on some earth it would possibly need to be -- which would thereby make it an eternal principle of right. There's just so many flaws in that idea that it should be, I hope, obvious.

 

Considering the second option, why could God not simply create more men, overall, then women so that the numbers could equal out? Would that not be more fair if the preferred state was monogamy? Would not God make it so that all his righteous children could exist in the optimal state of eternity? The essence of what becomes spirit children (intelligence), we know, is infinite -- else-wise eternal offspring cannot exist. If it is infinite then there literally cannot be more of one gender than the other (assuming we accept flatly that gender is a characteristic of the intelligence), and creating more of one gender than the other does nothing to diminish the amount of either infinite gender, so God could simply make it work out.

 

We really have no idea of the way any of this works though (hence the "mystery" of it all), but we do know that polyandry is not on the eternal table. If it were a legitimate eternal state, then reasonably speaking, it could be offered at times by the Lord to balance out things in mortality, and be easily offset by a higher polygyny rate in the eternities for others.

 

This is one example (off the top of my head) that shows your ideas are not well fleshed out and considered respecting the big scheme of the eternal nature of things.

[The Folk Prophet]

Same general idea holds if the imbalance exist but God didn't create it, in that case, God being a righteous and fair judge has to compensate for the aspect that is out of the control of the individual.

 

 

It strikes me that the reason women are generally more righteous than men, rather than being an eternal thing, is because men have, mortally, been given testosterone. Thereby men are more driven to sexual sin and violence. In consideration of this, it stands to reason that women, being less driven to sin in the first place, will perhaps be held to a higher account in the eternities.

Edited January 24, 2016 by The Folk Prophet

[Sunday21]

Activities? Any particular type of activities?

The endless round of: 1) relief society activities, come craft, learn about safety plans, make treats, etc 2) single adult activities, drive 4 hours to hear a talk, attend a dance, 3) ward picnics, linger longers. These things are fine for those who work 8 hour shifts, 5 days a week but not for people who work 6 day weeks and longer hours. Also organizers need to remember that such events are optional. It is fine to invite people.

When you are pressuring people to attend events because you put time into organizing them, you are going too far. If people are not attending your events, have fewer events. If someone does not attend your event, it is not ok to track them down and ask why they missed the event!

[The Folk Prophet]

The endless round of: 1) relief society activities, come craft, learn about safety plans, make treats, etc 2) single adult activities, drive 4 hours to hear a talk, attend a dance, 3) ward picnics, linger longers. These things are fine for those who work 8 hour shifts, 5 days a week but not for people who work 6 day weeks and longer hours. Also organizers need to remember that such events are optional. It is fine to invite people.

When you are pressuring people to attend events because you put time into organizing them, you are going too far. If people are not attending your events, have fewer events. If someone does not attend your event, it is not ok to track them down and ask why they missed the event!

 

Once again, how do you know that the leaders were not inspired to have these events? How do you know they weren't inspired to "pressure" someone? How do you know they weren't inspired to track someone down and ask them why they missed the event?

 

Moreover, since when is it not okay to ask? How hard is is to say, "I worked sixty hours this week"?

Edited January 25, 2016 by The Folk Prophet

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

1. Pride - defined by anytime we put our will above God's....which means to me anytime we sin, we are being prideful, and thus pride is the last sin any of us will et rid of.

 

2. Church Culture - as described (but not limited to) Zil's comments up thread.  

[askandanswer]

The endless round of: 1) relief society activities, come craft, learn about safety plans, make treats, etc 2) single adult activities, drive 4 hours to hear a talk, attend a dance, 3) ward picnics, linger longers. These things are fine for those who work 8 hour shifts, 5 days a week but not for people who work 6 day weeks and longer hours. Also organizers need to remember that such events are optional. It is fine to invite people.

When you are pressuring people to attend events because you put time into organizing them, you are going too far. If people are not attending your events, have fewer events. If someone does not attend your event, it is not ok to track them down and ask why they missed the event!

 

It sounds like my ward and stake operate at a much more relaxed, less frenetic pace than yours. :) Or perhaps my ward and stake leaders are a little more diligent in applying the counsel not to make too many demands on the lives of the members and to apply the family first filter. Or perhaps the various activity organisers in our stake are just not as hard working and as diligent as in your stake.

[Sunday21]

We are one of those wards where everyone has many callings. When people give their farewell talks, they say they have never had so many callings. Maybe as a result, visiting teaching and home teaching are rarely done here or I should say, a very few are diligent and most people just give up. I am including members of the bishopric.