Healing and Faith

[Jojo Bags]

10 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Where does this "doctrine" that Satan can't create anything, has no power, etc., come from?

I've done some research and from what I've looked into, there is no doctrine promoted by the Church that Satan cannot create  bacteria or viruses.  However, I do believe it can be inferred from the scriptures, and the writings and experiences of the early apostles and prophets that Satan has some ability to manipulate matter.  He has his own priesthood and power, which is permitted by God.  We also know that Satan has great power because he has more knowledge than we do.  I didn't post all the quotes I have regarding Satan's ability to make people sick, but there are many references.  What is interesting is that all through the History of the Church, the Journal of Discourses, and several books written by early GA's is that we are advised to rebuke disease and illnesses in the same manner as we would rebuke evil spirits.  I could give you a couple dozen references on just that alone.

[Guest]

I tend to believe Satan can only affect us spiritually.  But that effect will also impact us mentally, emotionally, and physically.  Stress will tend to weaken our immune systems and wreak all sorts of havoc on the normal functioning of our bodies.  This "makes us more prone to" disease that would normally be warded off by our natural systems.

What I interpret is that there is no way for a spirit to have a direct effect on physical things that are not assigned (i.e. our bodies are assigned to our spirits, thus we can affect our own bodies).

[omegaseamaster75]

On 2/20/2016 at 3:38 PM, Vort said:

This is just a word game. I don't think it has any underlying meaning. Satan creates confusion, hatred, rebellion, discord. Moreover, he creates ideas -- wrong ideas. Cain was called the father of Satan's lies, because Cain brought Satan's lies into being. But those lies were created "spiritually" by Satan before Cain created them "physically".

Saying that Satan cannot create anything gratifies our minds somehow, and it seems like it must be true in a philosophical sense. But philosophy is all about word definitions. Saying "Satan doesn't create anything" is poorly defined; by most definitions, it's false. So we should not be too quick to glom into it and build our philosophical and (especially) religious or spiritual constructs on such a shifting foundation.

Good work picking out only what you want to hear. My opinion is that Christ is the creator and that Satan is not. He cannot form physical matter. I may be wrong it would be great if something authoritative can prove it.

 

On 2/21/2016 at 9:49 AM, The Folk Prophet said:

Where does this "doctrine" that Satan can't create anything, has no power, etc., come from?

I don't think that anyone has claimed "doctrine" on this one yet

[The Folk Prophet]

4 hours ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

I don't think that anyone has claimed "doctrine" on this one yet

That was my point. If we're going to claim that Satan can't create anything, show me the doctrine. Or at least a strong opinion by someone with some level of authority.

[omegaseamaster75]

The act of physical creation, taking unorganized matter and forming it into organized matter in my opinion can only be performed by our creator. Granted I am a interweb super hero so take that with a grain of salt. However I have not seen evidence that contradicts my opinion. 

[Guest]

Omega,

I agree with you.  But I'll add another element.  We understand that all things physical were first created spiritually.  And the creation of such spirit is born of faith. So far I believe I'm on firm footing as far as doctrine.

We also know that Satan is completely without faith.  So he cannot create anything spiritual that is to then later be formed in the physical.

When we talk about Satan creating discord and other esoteric concepts, it isn't the same thing as we're talking about here.

[omegaseamaster75]

On 2/20/2016 at 0:00 PM, Jojo Bags said:

Are you saying that Satan cannot manipulate and afflict a person with diseases?  If so, how do you explain Job being smitten by boils, which was directly caused by Satan with the permission of God?  Boils are caused by the bacterium Staphylococcus aureus, How also do you explain the statements by a prophet of God?

Carborendum, see this post by Jojo. He is talking about physical affliction in this case boils caused by bacteria. I don't think Satan causes this. I also don't accept Jobs story as completely literal so there is that also.

I do think Satan can create doubt, fear, discord, etc, etc but nothing physical as described by Jojo. 

Edited February 25, 2016 by omegaseamaster75

[The Folk Prophet]

But diseases already exist. So even if Satan cannot "create" them from unorganized matter, that doesn't mean he cannot afflict people with them.

[omegaseamaster75]

2 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

But diseases already exist. So even if Satan cannot "create" them from unorganized matter, that doesn't mean he cannot afflict people with them.

I am not convinced that it works that way, who creates the bacteria? your statement that he can afflict people with disease give him physical power that I do not think that he has, You may as well say that he can cause an earthquake or a storm.

[The Folk Prophet]

8 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

your statement that he can afflict people with disease 

I made no such statement.

[omegaseamaster75]

2 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

But diseases already exist. So even if Satan cannot "create" them from unorganized matter, that doesn't mean he cannot afflict people with them.

maybe I am misreading your post, sorry

[The Folk Prophet]

15 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

maybe I am misreading your post, sorry

That's my guess. "That doesn't mean he cannot" is not the same as "that means he can". My position is not that he can. It is also not that he cannot. It is that we don't really know.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

Carborendum, see this post by Jojo. He is talking about physical affliction in this case boils caused by bacteria. I don't think Satan causes this. I also don't accept Jobs story as completely literal so there is that also.

I do think Satan can create doubt, fear, discord, etc, etc but nothing physical as described by Jojo. 

Yes, and i agree with you on that score.  I thought my additional information helped give the background to reinforce the point.

I'm not sure if I accept that Job is figurative.

[NightSG]

On 2/22/2016 at 10:18 PM, Jojo Bags said:

We also know that Satan has great power because he has more knowledge than we do.

And because he owns most of the lawyers.

[Just_A_Guy]

9 hours ago, NightSG said:

And because he owns most of the lawyers.

Well . . . We let him think that, anyways . . .

[theSQUIDSTER]

It seems to me that much of what we have from Satan are his own claims about himself.  Sure Satan has SAID he wears emblems of his power and priesthoods ... But what the actual extent of those powers are...?  I still maintain that because the Lord has often called him the "father of lies" that THAT is his biggest power.  That makes him sound like we should be able to easily overcome him.  We just don't believe him, right?  But if you think about the power of a lie to cause havoc and confusion, especially when people hold fast to lies and then (re)act accordingly, would such a thing not be a sort of antithesis to truth and true faith?  Satan, whatever powers he's allowed to use, should not be underestimated in his power to LIE convincingly.

Edited February 29, 2016 by theSQUIDSTER