Praying to Jesus

[Ezra Pax]

On 7/31/2021 at 7:29 AM, laronius said:

I don't think we ought to try to pattern our relationship with the Savior, concerning prayer, by what the Nephites experienced in His presence. Things are just different somehow when he is physically present. Like how the Holy Ghost appears to have not been fully functioning during his mortal ministry, something that to my knowledge has not been revealed as to why. Jesus specifically tells them a number of times to pray to the Father and then later when they pray to Jesus he says "they pray unto me because I am with them." So to me this is an example that we should not try to extrapolate as being appropriate in all situations.

We should also recognize the doctrine of divine investiture when deciphering anything revealed by Jesus. In many instances he is speaking on behalf of the Father and we should be careful again to not stray beyond what has been plainly manifest, that it is to our Father in Heaven that we are commanded to pray. 

I would also caution you when applying this line of reasoning: "One nuance is the fact that Jesus taught us to pray to the Father but at no time forbid us to pray to him." My recommendation is to stick with what he has said to us. 

What do you make of the frequent invitation in scripture (and repeated in our day in the Doctrine and Covenants) to call upon the Lord Jesus to be saved.?

Jesus speaks to the elect who “humble themselves before me, and call upon me in mighty prayer” (D&C 29:1–2)
“the voice of …the Great I Am, even Jesus Christ… Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on my name"
"And inasmuch as ye are humble and faithful and call upon my name, behold, I will give you the victory" (D&C 104:82).
"Ye call upon my name for revelations, and I give them unto you.” (D&C 82:4).

Some interpret this through a heavy eisegetical lens and suppose it means to cry to the Father (Ahman) in the name of the son; I think that is adding a lot to the text. If it means what it says and says what it means then it is an invitation to call on Jesus to save and forgive. Just like Old Testament prophets, Brother of Jared, Nephi, Alma, Paul, Ananias, etc. That said, how do LDS read this invitation to call on the name of Jesus?

[laronius]

18 hours ago, Ezra Pax said:

What do you make of the frequent invitation in scripture (and repeated in our day in the Doctrine and Covenants) to call upon the Lord Jesus to be saved.?

Jesus speaks to the elect who “humble themselves before me, and call upon me in mighty prayer” (D&C 29:1–2)
“the voice of …the Great I Am, even Jesus Christ… Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on my name"
"And inasmuch as ye are humble and faithful and call upon my name, behold, I will give you the victory" (D&C 104:82).
"Ye call upon my name for revelations, and I give them unto you.” (D&C 82:4).

Some interpret this through a heavy eisegetical lens and suppose it means to cry to the Father (Ahman) in the name of the son; I think that is adding a lot to the text. If it means what it says and says what it means then it is an invitation to call on Jesus to save and forgive. Just like Old Testament prophets, Brother of Jared, Nephi, Alma, Paul, Ananias, etc. That said, how do LDS read this invitation to call on the name of Jesus?

I'm not sure why you think there is some great (or even minor) twisting of the scriptures going on to say that calling on the name of Christ can mean praying in his name. We call on his name every time we pray evoking the blood spilled on our behalf and in recognition that it is only through him that we have access to the Father. I don't need an eisegetical lens to interpret it that way. In the light of the entirety of the gospel of Jesus Christ that interpretation practically jumps off the page to me. But for LDS here is where the standard was set:

Moses 5:6-7 And after many days an angel of the Lord appeared unto Adam, saying: Why dost thou offer sacrifices unto the Lord? And Adam said unto him: I know not, save the Lord commanded me. And then the angel spake, saying: This thing is a similitude of the sacrifice of the Only Begotten of the Father, which is full of grace and truth. 8 Wherefore, thou shalt do all that thou doest in the name of the Son, and thou shalt repent and call upon God in the name of the Son forevermore.

This same teaching of praying to the Father in the name of the Son is reaffirmed over and over again all through the scriptures, including by the Savior himself. The reasoning for this order of things is clear. God is our Father. The plan of salvation was His plan for His children. Jesus Christ plays a vital role in that plan as our Savior and Redeemer but it was not his plan. He acts under the direction of His Father in all that he does. The "Oneness" between them essentially allows the Savior to act with the authority of the Father (Divine Investiture) but we must never forget that that authority is actually God the Father's which he delegates to the Son. As such any and all blessings that we receive, including those pertaining to salvation, originate with the Father. This in no way minimizes the sacrifice the Son has made on our behalf, a sacrifice which the scriptures explains allows him to be called our Father because it is through him that we are born again. But until we are safely tucked away in the Celestial Kingdom with our glorious resurrected bodies Jesus is our Advocate with the Father, pleading our case for His blessings. A plea we imitate, calling upon the name of the Son for God's mercy:

D&C 45:3-5 Listen to him who is the advocate with the Father, who is pleading your cause before him— Saying: Father, behold the sufferings and death of him who did no sin, in whom thou wast well pleased; behold the blood of thy Son which was shed, the blood of him whom thou gavest that thyself might be glorified; Wherefore, Father, spare these my brethren that believe on my name, that they may come unto me and have everlasting life.

 

I would ask a question of you in return: What would you request of Jesus that is independently his to choose to deny or grant?

 

Edited August 6, 2021 by laronius

[Ezra Pax]

Thank you for this reply it was very good and I think the Moses 5 precedent is a great way to explain it. 
Just one point to clarify, what revealed word indicates that the Eternal God Jesus is not the author of salvation and the plan of salvation?
"The great Creator [who] suffereth himself to... die for all men... to fulfil the merciful plan of the great Creator" (2 Nephi 9:5-6, 13).
Or at least a joint plan?: "their plan was good" (Abr 4)... "plan of redemption, which was prepared from the foundation of the world, through Christ, for all who would believe on his name" (Alma 22:13).

Also, great question, which I appreciated as I reflected on it.
Jesus hears and answers prayers in his divine relationship with his believers.
There are 3 significant reasons to pray to Jesus Christ on occasion (while routinely praying to the Father Ahman as taught by Jesus):
1. To worship & praise him as God
2. To ask for mercy & confess sins
3. To plead for him to return

1. There are many examples in scripture of praising Jesus directly. He tells us: “Behold, it is my will, that all they who call on my name, and worship me according to mine everlasting gospel, should gather together, and stand in holy places; (D&C 101:22; emphasis added). Again, every saint who sings praises at Church in fact is offering “a prayer unto me [Jesus Christ]” (25:12).

 2. In the New Testament we see Peter cry out “Lord, save me! And Stephen cry out in a similar way in his final moment. I think those are examples, and the Book of Mormon is most informative to me. Namely, that crying out to Jesus Christ for mercy brings forgiveness and spiritual rebirth: “O blessed Jesus, who has saved me from an awful hell! O blessed God, have mercy on this people!” Alma cried out in prayer, “O Jesus, thou Son of God, have mercy on me, who am in the gall of bitterness,” and Alma never received a remission of his sins, “until [he] did cry out unto the Lord Jesus Christ for mercy” (Alma 19:29; 36:18; 38:8).
Jesus is God and like the Pharisees saw, he has authority to forgive sins. Jesus repeatedly tells us in D&C that he hears our prayers and answers them:  “whose offering I have accepted, and whose prayers I have heard, unto whom I give a promise of eternal life inasmuch as he keepeth my commandments from henceforth” (D&C 96:6). “But remember that on this, the Lord’s day, thou shalt offer thine oblations and thy sacraments unto the Most High, confessing thy sins unto thy brethren, and before the Lord” (D&C 59:12). The DC 45 scripture is true and valid, and now Jesus has claim on his own and can apply mercy because he has appeased justice. For me personally this is the most significant and has the potential to bring people to Christ and bring about spiritual rebirth.

3. John ended his prophecy in Revelation with the prayer, “Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.” Today, as saints in the latter-days we hope to be found among those true servants of God who Jesus Christ describes as saints who call on him begging him to descend and bring about his Second Coming: 
And the servants of God shall go forth… Calling upon the name of the Lord day and night, saying: O that thou wouldst rend the heavens, that thou wouldst come down, that the mountains might flow down at thy presence. And it shall be answered upon their heads; for the presence of the Lord shall be as the melting fire that burneth, and as the fire which causeth the waters to boil. O Lord, thou shalt come down to make thy name known to thine adversaries, and all nations shall tremble at thy presence… Yea, when thou comest down, and the mountains flow down at thy presence… (D&C 133:38–45; emphasis added).

[laronius]

On 8/18/2021 at 8:08 PM, Ezra Pax said:

Thank you for this reply it was very good and I think the Moses 5 precedent is a great way to explain it. 
Just one point to clarify, what revealed word indicates that the Eternal God Jesus is not the author of salvation and the plan of salvation?
"The great Creator [who] suffereth himself to... die for all men... to fulfil the merciful plan of the great Creator" (2 Nephi 9:5-6, 13).
Or at least a joint plan?: "their plan was good" (Abr 4)... "plan of redemption, which was prepared from the foundation of the world, through Christ, for all who would believe on his name" (Alma 22:13).

Also, great question, which I appreciated as I reflected on it.
Jesus hears and answers prayers in his divine relationship with his believers.
There are 3 significant reasons to pray to Jesus Christ on occasion (while routinely praying to the Father Ahman as taught by Jesus):
1. To worship & praise him as God
2. To ask for mercy & confess sins
3. To plead for him to return
 

First of all to say it was Jesus' plan is to imply that God had no plan to exalt his children at the time He created them. Which obviously is not a true doctrine. Did Jesus become a "partner" in that plan when he assumed the role of Savior? Yes, but as he stated he only ever did that which his Father directed him to do.

I hesitate though to attempt to draw too fine a line between the roles of the Father and the Son because they are so intermingled in their unity and purpose that in many instances Jesus has assumed the role of the Father, divine investiture, in his dealings with man. For this purpose it is best to rely upon what Jesus has said when teaching us how to pray. Over and over again he has taught specifically to pray to the Father in his name. Always.

3 Nephi 18:19 Therefore ye must always pray unto the Father in my name;

Not routinely, always. I find this doctrine to be pretty clear and without need to justify.

Any other scriptures should only be interpreted in light of this clearly set forth doctrine. To interpret them to mean that prayers can be directed to Jesus rather than the Father not only ignores this very clear teaching but also runs counter to the words of modern prophets. That is dangerous ground to make one's stand. 

[Ezra Pax]

On 8/22/2021 at 5:10 PM, laronius said:

3 Nephi 18:19 Therefore ye must always pray unto the Father in my name;

 

Hmm it seems that the dogmatic answer is always easier, but I believe the truth is more nuanced. I guess it also depends on how one views scripture. For me, the text presented in this thread does not allow a simple dismissal of the reality that Jesus hears and answers prayers, whether it fits the cotemporary cultural mold or not.

Jesus uses the word “always” frequently in his visit in 3 Nephi and each time it means “perpetually; continually.” As also attested by the 1828 Webster's dictionary definition:
“1. Perpetually; throughout all time; as, God is always the same. 2. Continually; without variation.”
For example, Jesus commands us to “always remember” him. If we “always” remember Jesus does that mean we can’t worship and remember the Father? The use of always does not make it exclusive.
Again I see an eisegetical reading of scripture because yeah, “always” has a slightly different definition today in our dictionary, which it did not when Joseph published the Book of Mormon, namely, “every time, or all occasions.” 
Reading Jesus’s words in 3 Nephi shows that Jesus commands us to perpetually pray to the Father and in the same chapter blesses those who pray without ceasing to him both vocally and in their hearts.

Still, I understand your position and rationale. Totally valid to follow modern leadership and their declarations. Personally I can only put faith in Jesus’s words or those revealed by the Holy Spirit. It is hard though to see what is revelation and what is a leader’s declaration… Jesus tells us that we “cannot always tell the wicked from the righteous” and we know that apostles and prophets are fallible so it is sometimes easier to just have Jesus as the foundation and trust his words more than declarations that aren’t explicit revelation. But yes I can understand your concern. 

[laronius]

54 minutes ago, Ezra Pax said:

 

Still, I understand your position and rationale. Totally valid to follow modern leadership and their declarations. Personally I can only put faith in Jesus’s words or those revealed by the Holy Spirit. It is hard though to see what is revelation and what is a leader’s declaration… Jesus tells us that we “cannot always tell the wicked from the righteous” and we know that apostles and prophets are fallible so it is sometimes easier to just have Jesus as the foundation and trust his words more than declarations that aren’t explicit revelation. But yes I can understand your concern. 

I totally agree with you on the importance of the witnessing power of the Holy Ghost but at the same time I have learned that I don't need to pray specifically about every single utterance that falls from the mouth of a prophet. There is a witness confirming peace, born of the Spirit, that attends the inspired words of men and women, prophet or not, that allows us to recognize truth from error. When I hear the words of a prophet and feel this peace, though I don't know if that completely describes the experience, I know that I am hearing the word of the Lord. You say you trust the words of Jesus in the Book of Mormon but really you are saying the same thing I am because what you are reading are the words of the Lord revealed to and recorded by a prophet and then translated by another prophet. But the Spirit witnesses to you that they are in fact the words of the Lord so you believe. The process is exactly the same when modern prophets deliver the word of the Lord over the pulpit.

But you are correct that being in tune so as to receive that witness can be hard. It requires spiritual work and the ability to shut out the distractions of the world. But it also requires a certain amount of humility to be willing to allow the Lord to reveal his word how and through whom he chooses. God has spoken through prophets since the beginning of it all and every dispensation has had to learn how to gain a witness of the words they speak. And for some reason most every dispensation has found it easier to believe the words of the prophets of previous dispensations. But it's the prophets today through whom the Lord is speaking more directly to us and it is vital that we learn how to gain that spiritual witness of the word of the Lord as revealed through them.

[Joanna]

I had the very same question recently. Did you get any replies? 

Joanna

Hastings Ward, England. 

[mikbone]

1 hour ago, Joanna said:

I had the very same question recently. Did you get any replies? 

Joanna

Hastings Ward, England. 

You may find the following of interest:

Please read 3 Ne 11 & 19 

3 Ne 19: 16 And it came to pass that he spake unto the multitude, and commanded them that they should kneel down again upon the earth, and also that his disciples should kneel down upon the earth.

17 And it came to pass that when they had all knelt down upon the earth, he commanded his disciples that they should pray.

18 And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and their God.

 

Remember They are One.  When you pray to Heavenly Father, Jesus also hears.  

In my opinion, it is important to know as much as possible about the identity of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ.  How are they different and how they are the same.  I pray to Heavenly Father.  When I take the Sacrament, I think about Jesus Christ.