Tesla Unveils the Model 3 Electric Car for $35,000

[tesuji]

52 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

all electric cars do, is get the oil industry to share power with coal and nuclear

Of course the ideal is to switch to EV cars and at the same time be making the switch to greener electricity generation. And if you can charge your EV with solar panels while it's sitting in your driveway or in a parking lot at work, that would be sweet too.

[NightSG]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

Cost of an equivalent Accord = $23k. ($7k advantage to gasoline) -- I had heard they were $30k, not $35k.  But you can adjust the math yourself.

Cost of a used Accord with most of its paint = $1200

The remaining $28,800 will buy a lot of gas.

[tesuji]

1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

all electric cars do, is get the oil industry to share power with coal and nuclear

Of course the ideal is to switch to EV cars and at the same time be making the switch to greener electricity generation. And if you can charge your EV with solar panels while it's sitting in your driveway or in a parking lot at work, that would be sweet too.

Charging times are getting shorter. Theoretically, too, if you had a standard, manageable size battery pack for all cars, you could just swap out your depleted pack with a charged one at a "gas station."

Edited May 4, 2016 by tesuji

[NightSG]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

Cost of an equivalent Accord = $23k. ($7k advantage to gasoline) -- I had heard they were $30k, not $35k.  But you can adjust the math yourself.

Cost of a used Accord with most of its paint = $1200

The remaining $28,800 will buy a lot of gas.

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, NightSG said:

Cost of a used Accord with most of its paint = $1200

The remaining $28,800 will buy a lot of gas.

I drive a 9 year old Accord with 168k miles on it.  Edmund's says it's worth about $5500.  That is what I was basing my math on.  Your numbers may vary.

[NeuroTypical]

I've done used Honda Accords for the last 15 years.  (I usually buy something at least 5 years old, so it's more like $10k, not NIghtSG's $1200.)  My goal is to get one to hit 400,000 miles.  They keep getting crashed before then.   

[NightSG]

49 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I drive a 9 year old Accord with 168k miles on it.  Edmund's says it's worth about $5500.  That is what I was basing my math on.  Your numbers may vary.

Edmunds assumes a pretty good cosmetic condition and everything working.  Subtract out what it would cost to at least steam out the upholstery and fix any little thing that isn't working exactly as it was from the factory.

9 years?  You get fancy new stuff compared to my last few cars.  I think the newest I've bought in the last couple decades was 17 when I got it.

150,000 miles is just a break-in period.

Edited May 4, 2016 by NightSG

[tesuji]

8 minutes ago, NightSG said:

Edmunds assumes a pretty good cosmetic condition and everything working.  Subtract out what it would cost to at least steam out the upholstery and fix any little thing that isn't working exactly as it was from the factory.

9 years?  You get fancy new stuff compared to my last few cars.  I think the newest I've bought in the last couple decades was 17 when I got it.

150,000 miles is just a break-in period.

My preference is buy brand new (so no surprises, and you get a warranty). Then drive it till it dies. My Honda Civic is 20 years old and runs great.

I am behind the times, though, on features. For example, I see people with GPS, or with TV screens in their cars that even show the rear when you back up. I always say, "Wow," just like a slackjawed yokel  

Edited May 4, 2016 by tesuji

[NightSG]

36 minutes ago, tesuji said:

My preference is buy brand new (so no surprises, and you get a warranty). Then drive it till it dies. My Honda Civic is 20 years old and runs great.

I am behind the times, though, on features. For example, I see people with GPS, or with TV screens in their cars that even show the rear when you back up. I always say, "Wow," just like a slackjawed yokel  

For the brand new price, you can often buy a couple of lightly scuffed but running great ones not more than a few years old.  Hard to find a warranty that beats having a spare car waiting for you at home.

Most features can be installed aftermarket, and frankly I prefer using the GPS on my phone with Bluetooth or a patch cable for the sound so it's consistent whether I'm in my car, someone else's or on my bike.  Besides, with a 32G memory card mostly full of MP3s, the phone is a better music source too.  IIRC, there are Bluetooth backup cameras available, so you can still have it all on the same screen, too.

If I had a nice car, I'd probably look at doing one of the tablet installs that are so popular over on the Torque app forum.  Some of those look straight up factory by the time they're done, and the tablet runs audio, navigation, OBDII diagnostics (Including looking up most common causes of an error - much nicer to see "throttle position sensor reading out of range" than just a "check engine" light.  May not mean much to most, but it's usually a $60-75 part that takes fifteen minutes to change, and doesn't really hurt anything until you get around to it. With a tablet, you'll also know if any other codes come up while you're ignoring that one.) and realtime gauges.

EDIT TO ADD: Tablet mounted in the center air vents of a Smart, running Torque and navigation:

Edited May 4, 2016 by NightSG

[Guest]

And here goes the old vs. new cars thread again...

It was bound to happen.

Edited May 4, 2016 by Guest

[NightSG]

12 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

And here goes the old vs. new cars thread again...

It was bound to happen.

Don't make me bring beards, tithing on net income and non-white shirts into it too.  

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, NightSG said:

Don't make me bring beards, tithing on net income and non-white shirts into it too.  

You forgot caffeine.

[Still_Small_Voice]

4 hours ago, Carborendum said:

@Still_Small_Voice @jerome1232 @LeSellers

Here is the math.  Your results may vary:

• Tesla's power efficiency = .347 kWh / mile. (this is the already existing model.  I couldn't find anything on the new one).
• My Honda Accord with combo city/hwy mileage = 28 mpg.
• 1 Gal of gas = $1.80
• 1 kWh = about 10 cents.

At that rate, I'd have to have 51 mpg (+/-) from my gasoline powered car to match the monetary efficiency of the electric.  BUT

We have to consider if that alone is a cost justification.

• Cost of an equivalent Accord = $23k. ($7k advantage to gasoline) -- I had heard they were $30k, not $35k.  But you can adjust the math yourself.
• Gasoline maintenance: Oil changes, batteries, other regular maintenance = $250/yr
• Electric maintenance: Battery replacements/refurbishing = $1000 every four years -- this is roughly equal, but will be in gasoline's favor if a hybrid.  And does the electric have a transmission?  There are some things that will still need to be done to some of the mechanical parts as regular maintenance depending on how the Tesla actually works.

Gasoline is not $1.80 a gallon in Utah presently.  It is now $2.35 and rising.  If you use wind or solar power to help regenerate your electric car the cost goes even lower to run your vehicle.  Gasoline generally hovers around $2.50 per gallon or higher most of the year lately. 

Battery replacements are about every six to ten years on an electric car depending on the model and how you charge.  If you only charge an electric car battery with Level 1 or 2 charging to about 80% capacity (and avoid Level 3 fast charging) most batteries will last longer.  Battery replacement is expensive which turns me off from most electric cars.  Price ranges about $5,750 and higher for battery replacements.  Replacement costs on lithium ion batteries will likely come down in the future.  Also real world range of most electric cars is only presently about 70 miles which also turns me away from most models.  (If a Tesla Model 3 battery degrades to only 55% battery capacity the range would still be 96 miles.)

Electric cars have very simple transmissions that do not require constant gear shifts like gasoline cars and so the transmissions will last far longer than most.  There are pros and cons to battery electric and gasoline cars.  This is why I want to own both to get the best of both worlds.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Still_Small_Voice said:

Gasoline is not $1.80 a gallon in Utah presently.  It is now $2.35 and rising.  If you use wind or solar power to help regenerate your electric car the cost goes even lower to run your vehicle.  Gasoline generally hovers around $2.50 per gallon or higher most of the year lately. 

Battery replacements are about every six to ten years on an electric car depending on the model and how you charge.  If you only charge an electric car battery with Level 1 or 2 charging to about 80% capacity (and avoid Level 3 fast charging) most batteries will last longer.  Battery replacement is expensive which turns me off from most electric cars.  Price ranges about $5,750 and higher for battery replacements.  Replacement costs on lithium ion batteries will likely come down in the future.  Also real world range of most electric cars is only presently about 70 miles which also turns me away from most models.  (If a Tesla Model 3 battery degrades to only 55% battery capacity the range would still be 96 miles.)

Electric cars have very simple transmissions that do not require constant gear shifts like gasoline cars and so the transmissions will last far longer than most.  There are pros and cons to battery electric and gasoline cars.  This is why I want to own both to get the best of both worlds.

$2.35!?!  Wow do I feel blessed in Texas.

With a large bank of batteries, not all of them degrade at the same rate.  At about the four to five year mark is when you start seeing the first few cells failing.  It should be about $1000 for those cells.  Then you'll have a few more over the subsequent years.  But if it will cost (with taxes and all) about $6000 every seven years.  That is a lot more money for maintenance of the electric vehicle.

Does the Tesla just have one large battery instead of a bank of smaller ones?

Given that, and that I tend to buy used, I don't think an EV would ever pay itself off for me.

Edited May 4, 2016 by Guest

[Still_Small_Voice]

14 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

$2.35!?!  Wow do I feel blessed in Texas.

With a large bank of batteries, not all of them degrade at the same rate.  At about the four to five year mark is when you start seeing the first few cells failing.  It should be about $1000 for those cells.  Then you'll have a few more over the subsequent years.  But if it will cost (with taxes and all) about $6000 every seven years.  That is a lot more money for maintenance of the electric vehicle.

Does the Tesla just have one large battery instead of a bank of smaller ones?

Given that, and that I tend to buy used, I don't think an electric vehicle would ever pay itself off for me.

From my reading and understanding the Tesla and other models of battery electric cars have several small battery banks.  It does make sense that one could get the bad battery banks replaced and just leave the good battery cells alone which could lower the battery replacement costs to 25% or lower than replacing the whole battery.  There will likely be third party companies that pop up in the future that will be able to do maintenance on battery cells and charge less than dealerships do or Tesla technicians. 

Also currently there are improvements with lithium ion batteries that is increasing battery capacity which means more range and longer life.  Most current 70 mile electric cars are being replaced with 90 to 180 mile ranges in the second generation of electric cars.

I also buy used cars generally as well.  I don't like paying more than $14,000 for most cars presently.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Still_Small_Voice said:

There will likely be third party companies that pop up in the future that will be able to do maintenance on battery cells and charge less than dealerships do or Tesla technicians. 

There already are thanks to the Prius.

[NightSG]

55 minutes ago, Still_Small_Voice said:

From my reading and understanding the Tesla and other models of battery electric cars have several small battery banks.  It does make sense that one could get the bad battery banks replaced and just leave the good battery cells alone which could lower the battery replacement costs to 25% or lower than replacing the whole battery.

Trouble there is that the batteries within a sub-bank need to be well matched to get peak performance.  Not sure how the Teslas are set up in terms of sub-banks, (or if they are at all) but it could be a mess trying to match one replacement to hundreds of good-but-used cells.

[Echo2002]

On 5/2/2016 at 10:24 AM, mordorbund said:

What if we tell most Americans that they don't have to start payments for 4 years?

That would be a rip off. Cars depreciate in value, why would I want to wait 4 years before I start paying for my car?

[Echo2002]

On 5/2/2016 at 10:24 AM, mordorbund said:

What if we tell most Americans that they don't have to start payments for 4 years?

That would be a rip off. Cars depreciate in value, why would I want to wait 4 years before I start paying for my car?

[mordorbund]

4 hours ago, Echo2002 said:

That would be a rip off. Cars depreciate in value, why would I want to wait 4 years before I start paying for my car?

Same reason why anyone would want to wait 5-7 years to actually own their car (which is now 5-7 years old).

[Still_Small_Voice]

I have heard of three additional car manufacturers that are working on 165 to 200 mile range battery electric cars.  Chevrolet is one of them.  The others are below:

Ford Chief Executive Officer Mark Fields confirms 200-mile electric car coming in 2019
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1103673_ford-ceo-mark-fields-confirms-200-mile-electric-car-coming

Volkswagon working on a 186 mile electric car coming in 2019
http://insideevs.com/volkswagen-186-mile-e-golf-will-launch-end-of-this-year-or-early-next/

Also Nissan may have a 123 to 150 mile electric car released in 2018 but there is no confirmation on the information I read.