No-nonsense judge smashes state's case in Officer Goodson trial

[mirkwood]

"Dismantle" doesn't do justice to what Judge Williams did to state's case against Officer Goodson.

 

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/dan-rodricks-blog/bs-md-rodricks-0624-20160623-column.html

[LeSellers]

In general, I worry about the police. Their job is not to stop crime, but to investigate it; not to find the guilty, but to close cases. There are too many innocents railroaded, too many cases of perjury and malfeasance to deny that the police are not perfect.

But, it is even worse to see that the prosecutors are actively undermining any effort at legitimate law enforcement, and to maliciously attack police for doing the job we hire them to do. This case, like the one in New York involving the death of Eric Garner, is simply a waste of the money stolen from the taxpayers. It may be, and often is, that the laws these men broke are, in and of themselves, stupid, unconstitutional, or just plain wrong, but it is not really the cops' fault when they enforce those laws.

Lehi

Edited June 23, 2016 by LeSellers

[Guest]

In case anyone wanted to know about the judge:

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/freddie-gray/bal-who-is-the-judge-in-the-freddie-gray-hearing-20150901-story.html

[Guest]

 

Quote

"You couldn't ask for a more fair-minded judge than Barry Williams," -- Gray Family Attorney, Billy Murphy.

Quote

"I have known Judge Williams for at least 20 years.  He has earned a reputation as a very fair and a very tough-minded judge and he runs a very strict court. And that's the kind of judge you want in a case like this."  -- Rep Elijah Cummings (Baltimore Congressman).

I began adding quotes from the following article. But the entire article is worth a read.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/freddie-gray-judge-is-not-one-to-let-anyone-push-him-over/2015/12/13/401ec780-8899-11e5-9a07-453018f9a0ec_story.html

I think I'm beginning to have a severe man-crush on this guy.

Edited June 23, 2016 by Guest

[tesuji]

On a much lighter note - Brian Regan on no-nonsense judges

 

 

 

[unixknight]

I don't mean to come across as grumpy or anything, but I'm curious as to whether all these laurels would have been thrown at the judge's feet if he'd decided the other way?

[David13]

8 hours ago, unixknight said:

I don't mean to come across as grumpy or anything, but I'm curious as to whether all these laurels would have been thrown at the judge's feet if he'd decided the other way?

You mean if he had gone along with the racist witch hunt and found guilt based on nothing but racism?  You mean if he had invented some evidence, like the hokey prosecutor did?

Yeah, there probably wouldn't be any laurels thrown then, no.  Is it difficult to understand that? 

dc

[unixknight]

18 minutes ago, David13 said:

You mean if he had gone along with the racist witch hunt and found guilt based on nothing but racism?  You mean if he had invented some evidence, like the hokey prosecutor did?

Yeah, there probably wouldn't be any laurels thrown then, no.  Is it difficult to understand that? 

dc

Wow.  That was a bit more hostile than was necessary, don't you think?  I asked a philosophical question.

So does that mean that had he found the defendant guilty, you'd have just dismissed him, rather than accept all these honors and praise in the links provided above?

[LeSellers]

2 minutes ago, unixknight said:

does that mean that had he found the defendant guilty, you'd have just dismissed him, rather than accept all these honors and praise in the links provided above?

I can't speak for David, but, yes, in essence. The evidence was (as best we can tell from the reports) questionable.

But there is a racial component here, and the PC crowd makes talking about race (except to blame White USA, and White USAan men, especially White USAan Christian men for all the evils of the world) "immoral".

Lehi

[unixknight]

2 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

I can't speak for David, but, yes, in essence. The evidence was (as best we can tell from the reports) questionable.

But there is a racial component here, and the PC crowd makes talking about race (except to blame White USA, and White USAan men, especially White USAan Christian men for all the evils of the world) "immoral".

Lehi

There's absolutely a racial component here.  No question.  I also agree with your point about that.

But here's the problem with the first part:  If    the praise for this judge is only offered because it validates one's own view, then the praise is meaningless.  This thread has been a lovefest for the judge, but not because of his fairness.  It's because he validated the folks expressing that opinion.

It would have been exactly the same if he'd found the defendant guilty and people who wanted to see that defendant go to prison came on here to praise the judge.  Exactly the same.  He validates one, so of course that makes him seem reasonable and fair.

I reserve judgment because, frankly, he knows more about the case than I do so I'm not really in a position to praise or condemn the decision.  It just is.

[LeSellers]

5 minutes ago, unixknight said:

If    the praise for this judge is only offered because it validates one's own view, then the praise is meaningless.  This thread has been a lovefest for the judge, but not because of his fairness.  It's because he validated the folks expressing that opinion.

I disagree. I, at least, and there is no reason to doubt that others feel the same way, found his ruling/decision to be judicially correct. It was based on the facts, it was based on justice, rather than political pressure from the PC crowd.

Had he gone the other way, the hypothetical decision would have been based on politics, not justice, on feelings, not evidence.

The heckler's veto is bad enough in regards to speech, but the equivalent justice is nothing short of a lynching.

Lehi

Edited June 24, 2016 by LeSellers

[unixknight]

2 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

I disagree. I, at least, and there is no reason to doubt that others feel the same way, found his ruling/decision to be judicially correct. It was based on the facts, it was based on justice, rather than political pressure form the PC crowd.

Had he gone the other way, the hypothetical decision would have been based on politics, not justice, on feelings, not evidence.

The heckler's veto is bad enough in regards to speech, but the equivalent justice is nothing short of a lynching.

Lehi

The problem is that in order for you to assert that his ruling was judicially correct, you'd have to have access to all the same information he does.  You'd also have to be qualified, legally, to make that call.  Are you asserting that?

[LeSellers]

2 minutes ago, unixknight said:

The problem is that in order for you to assert that his ruling was judicially correct, you'd have to have access to all the same information he does.  You'd also have to be qualified, legally, to make that call.  Are you asserting that?

As I said earlier

13 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

The evidence was (as best we can tell from the reports) questionable.

I can only judge on what I've seen. But the case was very public, and the evidence just plain bad, as far as we can tell. In these kinds of cases, the prosecution usually goes out of its way to  make sure the public knows its case so they will be seen "doing something" (the worst thing a politician can ever do, btw). It was just a bad case. It was political, not justice.

Lehi

[unixknight]

@LeSellers Well the death of Freddie Gray has been officially ruled a homicide, so if you want justice, somebody needs to be accountable.  It's only a question of exactly whom and to what degree.

As you said, we only know what was in the reports, but you also know as well as I do how reliable that really is.  Ultimately, we're nothing but armchair quarterbacks, and no matter how many reports we watch on TV or read in the paper, we aren't going to know what the judge knows, nor are we legally qualified to say whether he was right or not. 

My point is this:  He's only getting praise by people who already had made up their minds.  (Just as people who had made up their minds the other way are probably excoriating him right now.)  It has nothing whatsoever to do with the judge's actual competence or fairness.  It's just confirmation bias.

[LeSellers]

10 minutes ago, unixknight said:

It's just confirmation bias.

I'm cynical. You go well beyond that.

Lehi

[mirkwood]

30 minutes ago, unixknight said:

Well the death of Freddie Gray has been officially ruled a homicide, so if you want justice, somebody needs to be accountable. 

@unixknight the problem with your use of this word is context. 

 

For example.  Your local gangbanger living in Baltimore decides to rob a 7-11.  He gets caught shoots at responding officers and in the ensuing gunfight with the police is shot and killed.  This would also be ruled a homicide.  The question then becomes one of justified or not.  As an example I will use Utah state code because I know where to find it online (I couldn't find Maryland code with the information I wanted, but we all define things very close to the same).  You want someone to be accountable.  The person who is no longer alive may very well be the accountable one.  In the made up example the gangbanger was.  In the current set of trials, it is looking like Gray may be the one accountable.  The reality is we may never know exactly how he was injured, but it sure isn't looking like it was a police officer who caused it. 

I have to wonder about the now ignored original statement of the other prisoner where he told the media that Gray was throwing himself around in the van.

 

a person commits criminal homicide if the person intentionally, knowingly, recklessly, with criminal negligence, or acting with a mental state otherwise specified in the statute defining the offense, causes the death of another human being

 

In the above example I use, the action is ruled a  homicide, but is going to be shown to be justified under the deadly force statute.  Most likely Maryland has wording very similar (I've noticed we use very similar vernacular nationwide). 

Words and their legal definitions make a difference.  A word according to Webster's is not the same as State Code.  We had a trial out here swing the opposite way when the jury used Webster's instead of Utah State Code.  Not guilty was the verdict when USC was used, guilty when Webster's was used. 

As far as the trial.  Clearly there was no evidence to support the prosecution.  0-3 in prosecution at this point and I suspect 0-6 when it is all said and done.

Whatever issues you feel there are with BPD, this is looking more and more like a politically motivated prosecution.

 

 

 

[unixknight]

52 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

I'm cynical. You go well beyond that.

Lehi

I don't know what you mean by that.

8 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

@unixknight the problem with your use of this word is context.

Maybe you're right.  Like I said, I don't know enough about what went on in the courtroom to argue it either way.  All I'm saying is that n one of us know ALL the details the way the judge was, so to praise or attack him as a judge is meaningless coming from armchair quarterbacks like us.

[David13]

1 hour ago, unixknight said:

I don't know what you mean by that.

Maybe you're right.  Like I said, I don't know enough about what went on in the courtroom to argue it either way.  All I'm saying is that n one of us know ALL the details the way the judge was, so to praise or attack him as a judge is meaningless coming from armchair quarterbacks like us.

Your posts seem a lot more hostile than anything I posted.  And biased.  Not objective.

It's good to praise a Judge who can see thru' all the lies of modern day racism and witch hunt prosecutions.  And who can state clearly and unequivocally that there is no evidence when there is no evidence.  If the Judge says that, it means exactly that.  And then to he said Not Guilty, rather than let me convict based on "political correctness".

I am qualified to tell you what it means when a Judge says something.  I have a license to interpret what they say.

And when a Judge who is in a position to be influenced by his skin color in favor of guilt says what he said about the case, it is rather clear that the case was what you would expect based on what you admit you know.  That is, that there is a racial element to this.  That it is a "get whitey" or "get the police" witch hunt.  Or both.

Apparently you think it was something else.

And you don't seem to be able to grasp a rather simple concept that was set forth by Mirkwood.  That the one you want to be responsible should be the responsible one and not the nearest 'whitey' or policeman.  The one responsible is the one who set in motion the criminal activity that caused the death.  Period. 

It doesn't surprise me that you miss the essence of it.  Many people do that today, particularly the family who offer all kinds of ridiculous excuses for the criminal behavior that gets someone (the perp) killed. 

It's generally based on a concept (I guess) that there is a "right" to commit crimes and that then no one, police or citizen with a gun has a right or responsibility to use deadly force to stop them.

That the population must let them commit crimes.  That ain't the way it works.

dc

[Guest MormonGator]

52 minutes ago, David13 said:

Your posts seem a lot more hostile than anything I posted.  And biased.  Not objective.

 

He isn't hostile at all. He's passionate. There is a huge difference. I can tell you first hand that I truly don't think Unixknight is hostile/angry or anything of the sort. He's not "anti-police"-he's just a concerned citizen who is also on the front line in this case. 

[LeSellers]

10 hours ago, David13 said:

It's generally based on a concept (I guess) that there is a "right" to commit crimes and that then no one, police or citizen with a gun has a right or responsibility to use deadly force to stop them.

Indeed.

This:

Quote

“You have to look at it from every child’s point of view that was raised in the hood,” she said. “You have to understand… how he going to get his money to have clothes to go to school? You have to look at it from his point-of-view.”

“He was not supposed to die like this. He had a future ahead of him. Trevon had goals… he was a funny guy, very big on education, loved learning.”

Lehi

Edited June 25, 2016 by LeSellers

[estradling75]

I am not one praising the judge...  as far as I can tell he did is job...   And by all indications he did it according to the laws and principals that we as a nation have established.   Why anyone thinks that is praise worthy is a testament to how far we have fallen... That we need to praise one for one that did their job as a counter-attack/defense that will surely come from those that did not like the job he did.

 

As for Freddy Gray.... mortal justice has been served (Barring an appeal or proof of gross problems with the investigation/trial)..... It is now in the hands of the Immortal and Perfect Judge.

[unixknight]

20 hours ago, David13 said:

And when a Judge who is in a position to be influenced by his skin color in favor of guilt says what he said about the case, it is rather clear that the case was what you would expect based on what you admit you know.  That is, that there is a racial element to this.  That it is a "get whitey" or "get the police" witch hunt.  Or both.

Apparently you think it was something else

Show me where I said that.  Your hostility and personal attacks are uncalled for. 

20 hours ago, David13 said:

And you don't seem to be able to grasp a rather simple concept that was set forth by Mirkwood.  That the one you want to be responsible should be the responsible one and not the nearest 'whitey' or policeman.  The one responsible is the one who set in motion the criminal activity that caused the death.  Period.

Again, what's your problem?  What did I say or do to you to justify talking to me like this?  If you can't handle your views being challenged then grow up before you post again.

Edited June 25, 2016 by unixknight

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Unixknight, I appreciate your questions and thoughts. You are right about the judge. I remember when Pres. Bush was in office (George W) and I criticised him on an LDS board...every one tole me to respect my "leaders". Do you think those same people show Pres. Obama that respect? No way.

I'm quite puzzled by the Freddie Gray case. The young man was alive when he went into the police van, and later died from injuries he received on that ride...but no one is at fault?!  I realize as has been said we don't know all the details, but what we do know is not adding up. 

But then with judges making decisions as in the Stanford rape case, justice seems to be a coin toss . . . (if you are a talented athlete from a prestigious school you can get away with rape, but if you're black...don't get in the van because you won't make it to jail, let alone a trial . . . )

 

Edited June 25, 2016 by LiterateParakeet

[unixknight]

4 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Unixknight, I appreciate your questions and thoughts. You are right about the judge. I remember when Pres. Bush was in office (George W) and I criticised him on an LDS board...every one tole me to respect my "leaders". Do you think those same people show Pres. Obama that respect? No way.

Thanks.  I just feel frustrated because I've been very careful avoid expressing an opinion about whether the ruling was a good one, and yet I get hit with strawman arguments as if I had.  I suppose I should have reacted more gracefully but I'm 4 days form unemployment and my daughter is over in Germany right now and I have daddy worry... So my fuse is shorter than it ought to be. 

[LeSellers]

3 minutes ago, unixknight said:

I'm 4 days from unemployment

Have you completed an LDSJobs.org profile?

Please do so. Sister Sellers and I are missionaries at the Denver ERC, and two days ago, she "rang the bell" eight times! Her clients found work! We really do know how to make a job search work effectively. Even I've rung it several times this month.

('Course, our ERC is the best in the country. We have the highest job placement record, and we're a lot better than most commercial agencies, too.)

Elder LeSellers