I've Often Wondered

[ciustudent]

I like Bach's version better. He wrote S.D.G. on all his music, meaning SOLI DEO GLORIA or, "To God alone the glory."

If you think that obeying commandments in order to qualify to receive Christ's grace diminishes from his being the source of that grace...to each his own, I guess.

No, I agree that Christ is the Source, always. Christ is the Source! But you implied that you believed that one must "obey commandments in order to QUALIFY to receive Christ's GRACE." By definition GRACE means unmeritted favor. (Romans 11:6) In other words, if you can qualify for it, it ceases to be GRACE and now becomes something you have earned (meritted). God's Holy Word clearly teaches that we are all disqualified. To qualify for something means that you have passed a certain set of obstacles or standards and have now qualified yourself to be recognized for this or that. I.E. If the Utah Jazz win enough games in their conference throughout the year, they will QUALIFY for the playoffs. Grace would be the Jazz goin 6-74 and yet still being allowed into the playoffs. They did not deserve to make the playoffs! We don't deserve salvation, we have already lost every single "game" there is to play (in the analogy). And yet "It is by GRACE you have been saved, not of works, so that no one may boast" (Eph 2:8) So that nobody can say, "I qualified to receive Christ's grace by obeying commandments."

After saying this though, I want to reiterate that I totally agree with you that obedience is vital. James says faith without works is dead. Obeying is the outworking of faith. I obey because I have been given GRACE. I don't obey in order that I might qualify for GRACE. I hope this helps. I think we agree that obedience is important. None of us wants "cheap grace." GRACE was not cheap for Christ. But the receiving of GRACE must not be held out in front of us as long as we are obedient as the bunny is held out in front of the greyhound during the race. We receive the GRACE, and BOOM, we are broken - ready and willing to follow our Lord - ready to obey.

[the Ogre]

Absolutely! If he could be saved based on how little revelation he had that would motivate me not to go and tell him about Christ for fear he would reject Christ and then be held eternally accountable for the information that I presented to him. What terrible reasoning!

Whose reasoning is terrible, yours or mine? You are not specific. That's okay, I told you before I don't believe in logic.

You seem to think I don't want you to get out the word. Let me be emphatic: GET THE WORD OUT, but don't push those that never heard to the back of the bus (sorry about the caps, I can't read them well, but I thought them worth the effort).

I think we should get along and preach together more, but the divides of society keep those door closed. I think we all deserve salvation regardless of when we hear the word, some EVs think it can only happen now and only by their vision of the truth. Those who never hear or might be other varieties of Chr-stian, well that's just too bad according to some. I think that kind of attitude is just a little too Calvinist and self-righteous. G-d will make the truth known to all and through the truth shall we all be freed. Why would I be better then my illiterate ancestor who lived and died a thousand years before Christ on an island more than a thousand miles away? I am blessed to know of the L-rd, but that ancestor made my presence possible and so is given the same rights of knowledge as are we and the same options to choose as do we. He also was given the ability to live by the light he had in his time even if he was a bloodthirsty pagan and in the combination of those will the L-rd decide who is his (remember the parable of the penny, what if one shows up to work after his death, but still works; will the L-rd say to him "begone thou unprofitable servant, I have never known thee" when the time of the judgment has yet to occur?).

Now should you slow down because we feel differently or you think I'm trite: GET THE WORD OUT. As a Latter-day Saint Evangelist, I think we both should. Through the works of faith we both commit, we do the work that neither can claim is our own. So, get to it! Get to work and work all day long.

[CrimsonKairos]

ciu, it seems you're tying yourself up in unnecessary knots to avoid hinting that mankind deserves salvation.

Mankind never has, does not now, nor ever will deserve salvation.

Mankind cannot "earn" salvation as that implies the exchange of things of equal value, or a payment for work.

In saying we "qualify to access saving grace," I mean we demonstrate to Christ through covenants and ordinances that we are serious about taking his name upon us.

As fallen mortals, we will necessarily obey imperfectly while demonstrating our faith or inner conviction, until grace is dispensed and then our capacity to obey increases because of Christ's divine aid. It's a snowball effect: we try to obey, Christ gives us grace according to our faith and commitment, this quickens our "inner man" and helps crucify our "natural man;" this allows us to serve and obey God more; Christ gives us more grace; we grow less carnal, sensual and devilish until we lose all desire to sin.

When we've forsaken sin completely, and only then, are our sins ultimately remitted, our transgressions blotted out (Isa. 44:22) of the books in heaven that catalogue our life's actions (Rev. 19), and when we are judged by our works contained in those books (Rev. 19), there will be no sins attributed to us due to the justification and sanctification that comes through the Spirit and Christ's blood. At that point, being spotless and perfect in and because of Christ, our name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life with his own atoning blood.

I do believe God expects man to become perfect in his desires and partake of the divine nature until he can obey God in all things. Is it because man "earns" the grace that quickens him? No. We are ever unprofitable servants. However, while our best efforts are not enough, they are necessary.

Mistaken Christians think God's grace allows them to live as they please.

Inspired Christians know that God's grace allows them to live as He pleases.

That's all I'm saying. Don't go trying to put words in my mouth or have me claiming that I earn my salvation or anything ridiculous like that.

And again, I just have to point out your mistaken use of Paul's reference to "works" in Eph. 2:8. Paul was referring to those Pharisees, scribes and hypocrites who announced their own righteousness because of their strict adherence to the Law of Moses and the hedge around the law that they had added for good measure. If you had read further in Eph. 2, you would have found that Paul says we are created in Christ to do good works:

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Further down in verses 11 and 12 Paul shows that while the Gentiles had not always partaken of the covenants of salvation (circumcision for example), Christ's blood fulfilled that law, and Christ's death on the cross broke down the wall of partition between the Jews and the Gentiles.

Again, you have but to go back to Acts 15 to see that it was the schism at Antioch where the context is created for Paul's use of the word "works" and "grace" in his epistles:

7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. (Acts 15:7-11)

Peter defines "grace" to mean being free from the crushing requirements of the Law of Moses. There is no assertion that ordinances aren't necessary, that baptism isn't required, that obedience isn't necessary, etc... In fact, on the Day of Pentecost, when the people had been pricked in their hearts by the preaching of the apostles, and when they asked Peter what they should do, he said: "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38)

So if the purpose of baptism was the remission of sin, it would seem pretty reasonable to say that unbaptized converts didn't have their sins remitted. Unless you think Peter was just making a suggestion to these earnest inquiries. Or that Paul was wasting his time by re-baptizing disciples who hadn't received the Holy Ghost (Acts 19). Time would fail me to list all the examples in the book of Acts where once someone is converted to Christ, they are baptized and given the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands.

But I guess that was just something those silly New Testament apostles believed in. We don't need to comply with those commandments. They went out of style with the deaths of the apostles.

Whenever Paul condemns "works" and extols "grace," it is in an effort to show the Gentiles that they too may be saved, not by the works commanded in the Law of Moses, but by the gift of God's Son and the grace attendant to obeying his command to be baptized and obey God. Check out this example from Philippians. Circumcision was a symbol of Judaism: if you were circumcised, you were of the covenant people. Paul here contrasts his previous zeal as a Pharisee in keeping the Law of Moses, with the fact that now Gentiles are also the covenant people of God, circumcised in their spirits and not physically:

3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: (Philip. 3:3-9)

Paul says that it was not his righteousness in obeying the Law of Moses (blamelessly even!) that saves him. Rather, it is the righteousness that comes through faith in Christ. Paul is not saying baptism is unnecessary, or that the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost isn't a commandment of God. He's simply pointing out that those darn Judaizers are wrong, the Gentiles don't need to be circumcised or avoid pork, and that the Law of Moses no longer sets the standard of righteousness.

Methinks you're twisting the scriptures a wee bit and lifting them out of their context. Paul's consistent and unanimous message can be summed up thusly:

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. (Romans 10:11-13)

[Doctor Steuss]

It's interesting that you are so against lexicons, as if you don't believe that these men searched the very sources that existed in the first century AD. What I hear in your "disclosure" is that you agree that faith is another completely separate word from obedience. This is my point. I appreciate your honesty. You can argue with God's Word over whether or not saving faith includes works. I have brought forth just a few verses that scream that "even the great reformers" (I assume you mean Martin Luther and the gang) hold to what was said not just in the Pauline Epistles but also in Hebrews, Habakkuk and the fullness of God's Word both OT and NT. One of the great battle cries of the "great reformers" was SOLA DEI GLORIA = God's Glory Alone! The way in which God receives the most Glory is if He is the One who is recognized as the Author and Perfector of our faith. If He does not author it or perfect it, then that means that we do it. If we do it, we get the glory. Interestingly enough, that is the fourth battle cry of the Reformation. The third happens to be SOLA FIDE = Faith Alone! So it seems the "great reformers" were intent on the just living by faith (Habukkak 2:4)

I’m not against lexicons. I only look at them with caution when it comes to words that have theological significance (especially to “mainstream” Christianity). The authors allow their biases and doctrines that came about in later eras of Christianity to taint the text.

As for the reformers. There were some that were “faith alone” (which is interesting because such sentiments are hard to find in the ANF). But for the most part, they rejected the heresy of antinomianism (although there were a few that embraced it in their zeal to downplay works and create lazy-grace [and eventually TULIP]). True “faith” results in obedience. Obedience and “faith” cannot be separated. “Faith alone” when properly understood is to have faith/loyalty/fidelity/trust in the Lord and thusly obey Him.

Too often some of us LDS can get caught up in the “works” side of the equation, but at the same time there are many non-LDS that get so caught up in the “faith” side that they become something that the apostles of old wouldn’t even recognize as Nazarenes.

[snipe123]

I'm content with who I am, where I am, when I am, and what I can become through Christ.

The rest is just cheerleader-noise on the side. B)

Thankyou for the Gordon B. Hinckley in a chearleader outfit that just popped into my head...