I've Often Wondered

[King Mercury]

Its been said over and over since I've been a member of the Church that we in these latter days are "elite" spirit children of God as is evident by our comming to the earth in this last and great dispensation. We are "elite" because this is "the fullness of times" where the Church was restored and re-established never to be taken away.

But, I've often wondered something. What about those souls who chose to keep their 1st estate and come to this earth to receave a body etc..during the "Dark Ages" or Middle Ages when there was absolutley no Pristhood Authority and the entire world was in a state of apostasy. Were those souls common or inferior or were they also "elite" but of a previous wave of elite spirits? I mean, its easy to jump into a fight your side is winning, but to get out there when your side is being stomped into the ground and all you have to go on is the "promise" that your side will be victorious in the end, that takes guts! (faith).

Im not saying I dont think this generation is elite, if the leaders of the Church say we are, then we are, but what about some other generations?

Comments?

[CrimsonKairos]

I don't think generations can be lumped together as more valiant than others.

I've always viewed such statements as those darn warm-fuzzy thingy-bobs that I dislike. I mean, by that standard, every generation that pops into being is more valiant than the last until the Second Coming happens.

Each man or woman--by their faith and works--determines their valiance in Christ's Church and his gospel.

I'm content with who I am, where I am, when I am, and what I can become through Christ.

The rest is just cheerleader-noise on the side. B)

[gabelpa]

Well, we could be those good-for-nothings that barely avoided being cast out of Heaven with Satan, not quite bad enough to lose our First Estate, but not valliant in the pre-existance either. However, telling us that wouldn't do our self-esteem any good.

Maybe we were valliant in our Testimony and threw Satan out with our bare hands, but if we were THAT valliant, it certainly doesn't show. Anyhow, I think that the most Valiant in the pre-existance are the ones deemed to be not accountable in this life.

-GabelPa

[tiancum]

What about those souls who chose to keep their 1st estate and come to this earth to receave a body etc..during the "Dark Ages" or Middle Ages when there was absolutley no Pristhood Authority and the entire world was in a state of apostasy.

If there were Appalachian mountains is the preex. Then that is where these spirits lived. I bet many played the banjo.

On a serious note, I believe there were many elect that lived back then also, I think generally, the most valiant came at this time, between the 5th and seventh seals. But there are many valiant that were called forth at earlier times also. I can't jsutify the beleif that all here were more valiant than Abraham, Moses, Joseph Smith...It just doesn't work for me.

Although i do believe that mentally handicapped (those with limited accountability) were quite valiant, I believe that there are some that come to earth that had a choice to just come and receive a body, and go home, but they wanted to stay and take part in the work, and were given missions accordingly. I know many that die in infancy or before they are born have that choice, and choose to go home. (i don't blame them). I believe many stay though.

Well, we could be those good-for-nothings that barely avoided being cast out of Heaven with Satan

It was a long walk!! And had such a comfy chair. I procrastinated...

[Annabelli]

There have been numerous books and articles wrote about Indigo children. Many believe that they are the "elite" spirit children of God.

[Doctor Steuss]

Im not saying I dont think this generation is elite, if the leaders of the Church say we are, then we are, but what about some other generations?

Comments?

This generation is very special... just like every other one.

[CrimsonKairos]

[the Ogre]

This generation is very special... just like every other one.

I like this statement. I think the way we are special has to do with those alive meeting the requirements of the age. I do not think I would have done well in the middle-ages. I do not go with the flow well or submit easily to authority. I think I would have been diced for my rebellious and uncouth tongue.

I however do not think the spirits of any one age is better than those of another. I do count my blessings for being born now with the tasks set before me.

With that in mind I also do not think LDS spirits born today are any better than the Baptist or Muslim spirits born today.

[Doctor Steuss]

With that in mind I also do not think LDS spirits born today are any better than the Baptist or Muslim spirits born today.

I'm pretty sure G-d the Father, and Christ don't think so either.

[ciustudent]

<div class='quotemain'>

With that in mind I also do not think LDS spirits born today are any better than the Baptist or Muslim spirits born today.

I'm pretty sure G-d the Father, and Christ don't think so either.

For what it's worth from a Reformed evangelical --

God's Word teaches that there is no one who seeks after God (Romans 3:10-11). That indeed all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory (Romans 3:23). Not only that, but God has demonstrated His love for us in this way, that while we (all of us, every generation from Adam until present day) were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Christ died for all those who would place their faith in Him. Scripture teaches there is much danger in comparing ourselves with others, even other generations (Romans 2:1). We ought each allow the Spirit of God to examine our hearts. Let us work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Php 2:12), but never with the misunderstanding that we are saved by those works. We are saved by grace alone through faith alone, and this is not of ourselves, it is a gift of God, so that no man can boast (Eph 2:8-9). Lest we stand in heaven and tell our Lord Christ when He asks us why we are there, "It's because I was wiser than others, it's because I possessed the wisdom to know that You were truly Messiah even when others doubted," no, may this never be! Rather our answer must be, "Thank You!! Thank You for doing what I couldn't. Thank you for saving me!"

So, we are all in the same boat. Every generation, if Romans 5:12 is true, "Therefore, just as through one man (Adam) sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned." So we (and every past and future generation) are separated from God and lost eternally unless by God's grace, we place our faith in the one name given under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved (Acts 4:12).

[the Ogre]

For what it's worth from a Reformed evangelical -- (:) really? what's that :))

God's Word teaches that there is no one who seeks after God (Romans 3:10-11). That indeed all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory (Romans 3:23). Not only that, but God has demonstrated His love for us in this way, that while we (all of us, every generation from Adam until present day) were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Christ died for all those who would place their faith in Him. Scripture teaches there is much danger in comparing ourselves with others, even other generations (Romans 2:1). We ought each allow the Spirit of God to examine our hearts. Let us work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Php 2:12), but never with the misunderstanding that we are saved by those works. We are saved by grace alone through faith alone, and this is not of ourselves, it is a gift of God, so that no man can boast (Eph 2:8-9). Lest we stand in heaven and tell our Lord Christ when He asks us why we are there, "It's because I was wiser than others, it's because I possessed the wisdom to know that You were truly Messiah even when others doubted," no, may this never be! Rather our answer must be, "Thank You!! Thank You for doing what I couldn't. Thank you for saving me!"

So, we are all in the same boat. Every generation, if Romans 5:12 is true, "Therefore, just as through one man (Adam) sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned." So we (and every past and future generation) are separated from God and lost eternally unless by God's grace, we place our faith in the one name given under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved (Acts 4:12).

I actually like what you say and only find one thing to kibble about. Didn't Paul say that G-d is not a respecter of persons. I'm pretty sure he said something like this (maybe it was the S-vior H-imself that said it). When is it we are supposed to say it? Claim and Proclaim (C&P) you say, but when? PC said something interesting once, he said that it is in this life that we are to forge our salvation (he was involved in another thread about LDS doctrine then). It is a nice thing to believe, but what if the particular person never had the chance to know the truth? Never had the chance to a bit of C&Ping. My dad's family are Scots from clan McGregor and were Catholic Jacobites until the late 1700s. They never heard an Evangelical message much less the LDS message. I know many people would say they are condemned, but the LDS position would be that the L-rd would judge them based on the light and truth they had or give them a chance to accept the truth.

. . . our answer must be, "Thank You!! Thank You for doing what I couldn't. Thank you for saving me!"

I love this. Thank you for the contribution. But shouldn't our dead be given the same opportunity to C&P like we have? Maybe you don't think so, but I do not think the L-rd or Chr-st are that miserly.

What about the Buddhists of Asia or the followers of Islam? Are they condemned? I don't know, but I think I would let them make the choice (alive or dead) and then let the L-rd determine those that truly know H-m and H-s word as opposed to giving them a blanket condemnation (isn't a little presumptuous for mere humans to speak for G-d, insisting he think or feel a certain way?).

[CrimsonKairos]

Let us work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Php 2:12), but never with the misunderstanding that we are saved by those works. We are saved by grace alone through faith alone, and this is not of ourselves, it is a gift of God, so that no man can boast (Eph 2:8-9).

I disagree. First, you have to realize that pretty much all of the references to "works" in the Pauline epistles are references to the works of the Law of Moses. See Acts 15 for the original schism which prompted Paul to become such an ardent opponent of Judaizers within the Christian fold. Paul's consistent, clear message was:

"Your salvation is independent of whether or not you: eat pork; kindle a fire on the Sabbath; don't offer any more animal sacrifices; don't chant the hallel or wear the phylactery; aren't circumcised..." and so on.

In short, Paul condemned the belief that salvation still hinged on obeying the Law of Moses (or its perverted extension, compliments of the Pharisees, scribes and other sects). Paul never taught that obedience to laws and ordinances of the gospel as revealed by Christ, were considered "works" and therefore not necessary.

Christ himself--when asked what a man should do to enter heaven--answered, "if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matt. 19:17)

I just really grow tired of the "just have faith, faith is where it's at, faith, faith, faith, works bad, bad, bad!"

Obedience is necessary to access the grace that saves us.

[Traveler]

The scriptures give us clues and types and shadows. In Matt 6:10 we learn that it is the will of G-d that what was once in heaven should become the template of what will come to pass on earth.

Let us consider what has happened in heaven and see if such a paradigm fits what is happening on earth – in particular to these last days. Consider Revelation chapter 12 verse 4. Note the phrase “the third part”. I could go into a lot of detail here because many understand this to mean 1/3 of heaven. That is an incorrect understanding. This is an ancient mathematical expression that means heaven was divided into 3 parts. They do not necessarily mean equal parts just parts. It could have been half of heaven but I doubt it – likewise it could be 10% but I doubt that as well. The point is that there were at the time a division of heaven into 3 parts. One of those parts followed Satan and left heaven. It is interesting to note that mankind was divided into three parts following the flood and that heaven is divided into 3 parts or kingdoms in the resurrection.

There is another clue as to what the make up of the other two parts was, see Abraham 3:22 and again in Alma chapter 13 verse 3. Therefore we know that there is among the three parts a part that is known as the noble and great or the valiant in Christ. We are also given clues as how to know for sure who are among that 3rd part.

Now, before some reader starts patting themselves on the back and congratulating themselves on a fine job in the pre-existence - understand that to those given such a title is not for their glory. Note now the scripture in Luke 12:48. Here we learn that more is required of them in this life because they are given greater responsibility. Clearly those that are truly noble and great will demonstrate such divine nobility in the same manner that G-d’s chosen have always stood as an example and light to the world.

I have never heard or read from one of G-d’s noble and great that their calling to nobility and greatness was fun and a fabulous way to spend your vacation or spare time. This is not like getting a Corvette for your 16th birthday because of your good grades.

The Traveler

[a-train]

I think the chosen spirits held for this age are indeed special and chosen, but no more special and chosen than those so chosen to live in other ages. The Levites were chosen to tend the temple, the Danites were chosen to fight wars, to each were given the talents and gifts of their stewardship.

This generation has been reserved and set apart for the latter-day work in preparing the earth the final time for the Second Coming of the Saviour. The generation in the meridian of time were so chosen to do those things attendant to the coming of the Saviour in the flesh among men and the work of the Primitive Church.

I agree with Dr. Stuess, this generation is chosen, but so were all the others.

-a-train

[ciustudent]

<div class='quotemain'>

Let us work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Php 2:12), but never with the misunderstanding that we are saved by those works. We are saved by grace alone through faith alone, and this is not of ourselves, it is a gift of God, so that no man can boast (Eph 2:8-9).

I disagree. First, you have to realize that pretty much all of the references to "works" in the Pauline epistles are references to the works of the Law of Moses. See Acts 15 for the original schism which prompted Paul to become such an ardent opponent of Judaizers within the Christian fold. Paul's consistent, clear message was:

"Your salvation is independent of whether or not you: eat pork; kindle a fire on the Sabbath; don't offer any more animal sacrifices; don't chant the hallel or wear the phylactery; aren't circumcised..." and so on.

In short, Paul condemned the belief that salvation still hinged on obeying the Law of Moses (or its perverted extension, compliments of the Pharisees, scribes and other sects). Paul never taught that obedience to laws and ordinances of the gospel as revealed by Christ, were considered "works" and therefore not necessary.

Christ himself--when asked what a man should do to enter heaven--answered, "if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matt. 19:17)

I just really grow tired of the "just have faith, faith is where it's at, faith, faith, faith, works bad, bad, bad!"

Obedience is necessary to access the grace that saves us.

I understand the references to works by Paul. You explain it well. Christ's answer to the rich young ruler that you alluded to in Matthew 19 was taken a little out of context as was a reference to Revelation 12 by another. But I would like to say that Jesus' answer in Matt 19:17 was not the measure of salvation. His answer simply exposed the prideful heart of the rich young ruler who then answers, "well I have done all these." So Christ then condemns this young man's understanding of salvation. The question was not the presciription, its the answer that exposed the error in thinking. Run back to Ephesians 2:8-9. It is by grace alone through faith alone. Now, obedience is still there. But as an overflow of what has been accomplished already, not as a means of accomplishing something (in this case salvation). Trying to work ourselves to eternity is like trying to fly a tri-cycle, it simply can't be done.

[CrimsonKairos]

If "works" is defined to mean repentance, loving your neighbor as Christ loves them, and obeying God's commandments, then of course works are necessary.

Are you claiming that Christ will extend his saving grace to someone who neglects these "works?"

[Doctor Steuss]

If "works" is defined to mean repentance, loving your neighbor as Christ loves them, and obeying God's commandments, then of course works are necessary.

Are you claiming that Christ will extend his saving grace to someone who neglects these "works?"

The word translated as "faith" (pistis) has a connotation of fidelity/loyalty/obedience/etc. The Works vs. Faith arguments are ultimately about two sides of the very same coin. So, I just want to change your question a bit:

"Are you claiming that Christ will extend his saving grace to someone who neglects [pistis] in Him?"

Tah-dah!

[CrimsonKairos]

Yeah, but most non-LDS Christians don't have Greek nuance or connotation in mind when they say faith alone, they mean no ordinances are necessary. That really pistis me off. B)

[a-train]

OK I laughed. NICE.

-a-train

[ciustudent]

Yeah, but most non-LDS Christians don't have Greek nuance or connotation in mind when they say faith alone, they mean no ordinances are necessary. That really pistis me off. B)

pistis - AV-faith 239, assurance 1, believe + 1537 1, belief 1, them that believe 1, fidelity 1; 244

1) conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man’s relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it

1a) relating to God

1a1) the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ

1b) relating to Christ

1b1) a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God

1c) the religious beliefs of Christians

1d) belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same

This is the word for faith used in the Interlinear Greek New Testament. It is used 24 times in the gospels alone and it always means faith, assurance, believe (as supported by Liddell-Scott Lexicon – a most widely recognized authentic dictionary of the Greek New Testament). Furthermore, pistis is used 228 times in the entire GNT and never once is defined as loyalty or obedience. ergon is the Greek word for works, and the Greek word most commonly used for obey or obedience is peitharkeo.

As for ... If "works" is defined to mean repentance, loving your neighbor as Christ loves them, and obeying God's commandments, then of course works are necessary.

Are you claiming that Christ will extend his saving grace to someone who neglects these "works?"

I agree with you that these are necessary and righteous acts. However, it is impossible to possess the love of Christ on one's own. These things are not natural for the flesh (Romans 7:14-8:11), in fact without the saving work of the Spirit of life these fruits are absent. So the point I am trying to make is that these works or good deeds flow out of a right relationship with God. They are not done to produce a right relationship. The only thing that produces a right relationship with God is pistis in the work of Christ on the Cross for one's own sin. Once this pistis exists (and it is a gift!), then obedience is the outflowing because of the wondrous work that was done on Cross on my behalf!

[ciustudent]

I actually like what you say and only find one thing to kibble about. Didn't Paul say that G-d is not a respecter of persons. I'm pretty sure he said something like this (maybe it was the S-vior H-imself that said it). When is it we are supposed to say it? Claim and Proclaim (C&P) you say, but when? PC said something interesting once, he said that it is in this life that we are to forge our salvation (he was involved in another thread about LDS doctrine then). It is a nice thing to believe, but what if the particular person never had the chance to know the truth? Never had the chance to a bit of C&Ping. My dad's family are Scots from clan McGregor and were Catholic Jacobites until the late 1700s. They never heard an Evangelical message much less the LDS message. I know many people would say they are condemned, but the LDS position would be that the L-rd would judge them based on the light and truth they had or give them a chance to accept the truth.

. . . our answer must be, "Thank You!! Thank You for doing what I couldn't. Thank you for saving me!"

I love this. Thank you for the contribution. But shouldn't our dead be given the same opportunity to C&P like we have? Maybe you don't think so, but I do not think the L-rd or Chr-st are that miserly.

What about the Buddhists of Asia or the followers of Islam? Are they condemned? I don't know, but I think I would let them make the choice (alive or dead) and then let the L-rd determine those that truly know H-m and H-s word as opposed to giving them a blanket condemnation (isn't a little presumptuous for mere humans to speak for G-d, insisting he think or feel a certain way?).

I think the Word of God clearly teaches that the Sovereign God has fulll authority to do as He pleases. I also think its safe for me to take a stand on such verses like John 14:6, Acts 4:12, John 3:3, and Luke 14:27, 33. These teach Christ Jesus as the One Mediator between God and man. So what seems unfair to us (ie. muslims going to hell along with buddhists and hindus and democrats (just joking)) is actually completely just for a Holy and Righteous God. In fact, we all deserve hell, period. But God demonstrates His love for us in this, that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. So I am not afraid to say that everyone who does not place their faith in Christ alone cannot possibly be counted as worthy for eternity with God in heaven. So what of the one who never hears? That's why we share the Gospel! But even if he never hears am I OK with a God who acts justly and holds that man's sins against him? Absolutely! If he could be saved based on how little revelation he had that would motivate me not to go and tell him about Christ for fear he would reject Christ and then be held eternally accountable for the information that I presented to him. What terrible reasoning!

[Alaskagain]

<snipped>

So what seems unfair to us (ie. muslims going to hell along with buddhists and hindus and democrats (just joking)) is actually completely just for a Holy and Righteous God. . . .

which are you just joking about- the muslims, the buddhists, the hindus or the democrats?

[Doctor Steuss]

ciustudent,

You are doing yourself an injustice by relying only on lexicons for this particular word. Any lexicon (even those that run upwards of $300+) will ultimately carry the biases of the author/translator. A great example of this is how most lexicons claim that elohim can mean "judges." It did not gain this meaning until long after the Deuteronomist reformers.

I'd suggest finding some non-Biblical period documents in Greek (between 1 CE - 200 CE) and see how modern translators have translated the word pistis (and its derivatives). You may find that the majority of them don't translate it as "belief" or "faith." It is only those in Biblical studies that seem to think that the word all of a sudden changes meaning when written in epistles, etc.

Also, find some Jacobian English era documents and see how they use the term “faith.” It didn’t exactly have the same meaning for the KJV translators that it does now. People have just clung to the KJV verbiage despite the changing of the connotation of the word because it helps their cheep grace dogmatic ideals. Having a Lord necessitates obedience. Anything else is heresy. Antinomianism ultimately results from those that try to eject obedience from the equation of receiving G-d’s grace, and even the great reformers rejected this tripe for what it is: heresy in the eyes of the Almighty.

Pistis is loyalty and fidelity. "Faith" in a Lord requires these things. Lack of obedience is a sign of a lack of loyalty for a Lord.

Work out your salvation with fear and trembling...

Edited to add:

In the interest of disclosure and honesty. "Obedience" isn't a viable translation for pistis; however, I have naturally included it as "loyalty" and "fidelity" ultimately necessitate "obedience" when a Lord is involved.

[ciustudent]

ciustudent,

You are doing yourself an injustice by relying only on lexicons for this particular word. Any lexicon (even those that run upwards of $300+) will ultimately carry the biases of the author/translator. A great example of this is how most lexicons claim that elohim can mean "judges." It did not gain this meaning until long after the Deuteronomist reformers.

I'd suggest finding some non-Biblical period documents in Greek (between 1 CE - 200 CE) and see how modern translators have translated the word pistis (and its derivatives). You may find that the majority of them don't translate it as "belief" or "faith." It is only those in Biblical studies that seem to think that the word all of a sudden changes meaning when written in epistles, etc.

Also, find some Jacobian English era documents and see how they use the term “faith.” It didn’t exactly have the same meaning for the KJV translators that it does now. People have just clung to the KJV verbiage despite the changing of the connotation of the word because it helps their cheep grace dogmatic ideals. Having a Lord necessitates obedience. Anything else is heresy. Antinomianism ultimately results from those that try to eject obedience from the equation of receiving G-d’s grace, and even the great reformers rejected this tripe for what it is: heresy in the eyes of the Almighty.

Pistis is loyalty and fidelity. "Faith" in a Lord requires these things. Lack of obedience is a sign of a lack of loyalty for a Lord.

Work out your salvation with fear and trembling...

Edited to add:

In the interest of disclosure and honesty. "Obedience" isn't a viable translation for pistis; however, I have naturally included it as "loyalty" and "fidelity" ultimately necessitate "obedience" when a Lord is involved.

It's interesting that you are so against lexicons, as if you don't believe that these men searched the very sources that existed in the first century AD. What I hear in your "disclosure" is that you agree that faith is another completely separate word from obedience. This is my point. I appreciate your honesty. You can argue with God's Word over whether or not saving faith includes works. I have brought forth just a few verses that scream that "even the great reformers" (I assume you mean Martin Luther and the gang) hold to what was said not just in the Pauline Epistles but also in Hebrews, Habakkuk and the fullness of God's Word both OT and NT. One of the great battle cries of the "great reformers" was SOLA DEI GLORIA = God's Glory Alone! The way in which God receives the most Glory is if He is the One who is recognized as the Author and Perfector of our faith. If He does not author it or perfect it, then that means that we do it. If we do it, we get the glory. Interestingly enough, that is the fourth battle cry of the Reformation. The third happens to be SOLA FIDE = Faith Alone! So it seems the "great reformers" were intent on the just living by faith (Habukkak 2:4)

[CrimsonKairos]

I like Bach's version better. He wrote S.D.G. on all his music, meaning SOLI DEO GLORIA or, "To God alone the glory."

If you think that obeying commandments in order to qualify to receive Christ's grace diminishes from his being the source of that grace...to each his own, I guess.