Who do we deal with during Final Judgment?

[UtahTexan]

29 minutes ago, Zarahemla said:

We are a church that focuses so much on what hasn't happened yet though.

Are we?

Like what?

[Guest]

2 hours ago, UtahTexan said:

Are we?

Like what?

Getting to the Celestial Kingdom, Exaltation, the 2nd Coming, Resurrection. Being a family together forever in heaven. Returning to live with Heavenly Father again. I could go on.

[askandanswer]

On 8/24/2016 at 11:14 PM, zil said:

No offense to JAG, but I have a much better Advocate.

 

 

18 hours ago, Vort said:

JAG is a top-notch guy. I think very highly of him. But frankly, I plan to have Jesus Christ himself as my advocate with the Father.

I know He has had a lot of trials, but in the only court room experience He has had, He was the defendant, not the advocate. And as for His fee of a broken heart and a contrite spirit,,,,,,I think it would be much easier to just pay cash,

[UtahTexan]

7 hours ago, Zarahemla said:

Getting to the Celestial Kingdom, Exaltation, the 2nd Coming, Resurrection. Being a family together forever in heaven. Returning to live with Heavenly Father again. I could go on.

that is all one thing......one occurance.  Again, who judges is kinda silly to worry about.

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Zarahemla said:

Getting to the Celestial Kingdom, Exaltation, the 2nd Coming, Resurrection. Being a family together forever in heaven. Returning to live with Heavenly Father again. I could go on.

Those are all distant goals to keep our eye on.  But they're useless if we don't keep an eye on our current steps on how to get there. If you don't know how to get there, the first steps would be to start learning what the first steps are.

[Edspringer]

17 hours ago, Traveler said:

 

Some insights – a scripture search for cherub will produce a lot of interesting results.  The only references I can find to what is meant by a cherub that “covers” is in reference to the cherubim that covers with wings at the Mercy Seat (Exodus 25:20).   Now I would reference the ancient Hebrew poetic structure of Ezekiel 28:11-19.  Because this is a poetic structure we know symbolism is involved.  I would point particularly to verse 14.  With the symbolism – I would suggest that one of the “anointed” “covering” cherub is Satan – that same that beguiled Eve in the Garden of Eden.  Note that the Hebrew term for “anointed” is translated in English as - Messiah.

Verse 19 of Exodus is where we see the two cherubim facing each other – the KJV of the Bible says, “and their faces shall look one to another”.  It was this reference that I was told by a Rabbi (not LDS) that a known and established variant translation of the text is, “and the two brother shall face each other.”

If we are to follow the symbols given in scripture in connection to the Cherubim we will find the following:

A sword (justice)

A flame (cleansing)

Keeper of the way (I am the way)

On the right hand of G-d.

I would submit that in Jesus and only Jesus do we find fulfillment of all the good symbolism concerning Cherubim and Satan as the fulfillment of all the bad symbolism.

I hope this helps in your personal study.  If anyone has any other possible prophetic fulfillment of the symbolism that surrounds the use of Cherubim in scripture - I would be most interested in what other two "Messiahs" will face off against each other at the final judgement.

 

The Traveler

Thanx, a lot, Traveler. This will surely enhance my personal study on the subject "angels".

There's a lot to dig from the passages you mentioned.

Thanx once more!

[Traveler]

2 hours ago, Edspringer said:

Thanx, a lot, Traveler. This will surely enhance my personal study on the subject "angels".

There's a lot to dig from the passages you mentioned.

Thanx once more!

Just one additional piece of info.  I forget the ancient Hebrew term that in the Old Testament is translated as Cherub or Cherubim but that the particular Hebrew word has never been translated in English.  In the New Testament references in the Greek manuscripts use the word Cherub directly.  In the ancient pagan culture of Greece a Cherub was a title of a level or kind-of g-d, not an angel.  The idea of a Cherub being a classification of angel comes from the early traditional Christian Orthodoxy without scriptural or other reliable divine revelation source.

 

The Traveler

[Edspringer]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

Just one additional piece of info.  I forget the ancient Hebrew term that in the Old Testament is translated as Cherub or Cherubim but that the particular Hebrew word has never been translated in English.  In the New Testament references in the Greek manuscripts use the word Cherub directly.  In the ancient pagan culture of Greece a Cherub was a title of a level or kind-of g-d, not an angel.  The idea of a Cherub being a classification of angel comes from the early traditional Christian Orthodoxy without scriptural or other reliable divine revelation source.

 

The Traveler

Well, that gives a new perspective to my seachings. So Cherubim are distinct beings, not angels. What kind of beings are they, after all? Keepers?

Thanx a lot!

[Traveler]

52 minutes ago, Edspringer said:

Well, that gives a new perspective to my seachings. So Cherubim are distinct beings, not angels. What kind of beings are they, after all? Keepers?

Thanx a lot!

 

From my studies the best title I would give as an English understanding for translation of what is titled Cherubim in ancient scripture, would be Messianic or Messiah being.

The Traveler

[Edspringer]

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

 

From my studies the best title I would give as an English understanding for translation of what is titled Cherubim in ancient scripture, would be Messianic or Messiah being.

The Traveler

In your view , the "two brothers" could be Jehovah who else?

Thanx for the awesome insights so far!

[Traveler]

25 minutes ago, Edspringer said:

In your view , the "two brothers" could be Jehovah who else?

Thanx for the awesome insights so far!

 

Jehovah is speculation on my part but Satan is specifically mentioned in Ezekiel 28:11-19 as I highlighted in a previous post.  In Acts, Steven looked into heaven and saw Jesus on the right hand of G-d - thus I contend that Jesus is the right hand "anointed" (Messiah) one.  And scripture identifies Satan as the one at the left hand of G-d. I have made this reference several times to my anti LDS friends that seem to want to criticize us LDS for the doctrine that Jesus and Satan are pre-existence brothers.   My question is – what two Messiah brothers could possibly be opposing each other before the judgment seat of G-d – one our accuser, the other our advocate?  As another side note – it is this concept of and accuser and advocate that is at the foundation of our court system as the means to bring about justice.  This doctrine is well bedded and very much a part of our history and society.  Note that in court that the defendant and their advocate sit at the right hand side of the Judge and the accuser or prosecutor sits on the left hand side of the judge.

 

The Traveler

[zil]

17 hours ago, Traveler said:

Jehovah is speculation on my part but Satan is specifically mentioned in Ezekiel 28:11-19 as I highlighted in a previous post.  In Acts, Steven looked into heaven and saw Jesus on the right hand of G-d - thus I contend that Jesus is the right hand "anointed" (Messiah) one.  And scripture identifies Satan as the one at the left hand of G-d. I have made this reference several times to my anti LDS friends that seem to want to criticize us LDS for the doctrine that Jesus and Satan are pre-existence brothers.   My question is – what two Messiah brothers could possibly be opposing each other before the judgment seat of G-d – one our accuser, the other our advocate?  As another side note – it is this concept of and accuser and advocate that is at the foundation of our court system as the means to bring about justice.  This doctrine is well bedded and very much a part of our history and society.  Note that in court that the defendant and their advocate sit at the right hand side of the Judge and the accuser or prosecutor sits on the left hand side of the judge.

True or not, it's an interesting thing to ponder.  One naturally wants to revolt at the idea that Satan could in any way be represented in those two particular cherubim, but I'm not sure there's any real harm / negative / danger to it - just a knee-jerk rejection to Satan.

17 hours ago, Traveler said:

Note that in court that the defendant and their advocate sit at the right hand side of the Judge and the accuser or prosecutor sits on the left hand side of the judge.

Except in at least some episodes of Law & Order.

Edited August 27, 2016 by zil

[Edspringer]

Thanx, @Traveler. Awasome insights!

[Ffenix]

On 8/26/2016 at 5:13 AM, Carborendum said:

Those are all distant goals to keep our eye on.  But they're useless if we don't keep an eye on our current steps on how to get there. If you don't know how to get there, the first steps would be to start learning what the first steps are.

"One step enough for me" right? 

On 8/26/2016 at 1:51 PM, Traveler said:

 

Jehovah is speculation on my part but Satan is specifically mentioned in Ezekiel 28:11-19 as I highlighted in a previous post.  In Acts, Steven looked into heaven and saw Jesus on the right hand of G-d - thus I contend that Jesus is the right hand "anointed" (Messiah) one.  And scripture identifies Satan as the one at the left hand of G-d. I have made this reference several times to my anti LDS friends that seem to want to criticize us LDS for the doctrine that Jesus and Satan are pre-existence brothers.   My question is – what two Messiah brothers could possibly be opposing each other before the judgment seat of G-d – one our accuser, the other our advocate?  As another side note – it is this concept of and accuser and advocate that is at the foundation of our court system as the means to bring about justice.  This doctrine is well bedded and very much a part of our history and society.  Note that in court that the defendant and their advocate sit at the right hand side of the Judge and the accuser or prosecutor sits on the left hand side of the judge.

 

The Traveler

The only problem I have with this is that I'm not entirely sure how it lines up with D&C 45: 3-5 since there's nothing to indicate an accuser of any sort beyond our own actions. Maybe I'm just missing the huge glaring explanation though. There's a scripture I'm missing that talks about our actions being our accusers that I'm missing, I'm sure it's around somewhere though.

[zil]

1 hour ago, Ffenix said:

The only problem I have with this is that I'm not entirely sure how it lines up with D&C 45: 3-5 since there's nothing to indicate an accuser of any sort beyond our own actions.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/jst/jst-rev/12.10?lang=eng#9

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/rev/12.10?lang=eng#9

This is the only scripture I know of where Satan is called "the accuser" - but when you listen carefully, it starts to fit in other places.

1 hour ago, Ffenix said:

There's a scripture I'm missing that talks about our actions being our accusers that I'm missing, I'm sure it's around somewhere though.

You might be thinking about the list of things that condemn us: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/alma/12.14?lang=eng#13

FWIW

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Ffenix said:

"One step enough for me" right? 

When we depend on the Lord for all things and recognize that we depend on Him for all things, yes.  One step is sufficient.  Then the next, then the next, and so on.  That's how the Light leads us kindly into the unknown.  We are led by faith.

As we make it a habit to continually depend on the Lord, we begin to see patterns of His thinking and His wisdom.  If we can habitually see things as He sees them, we're no longer asking as children, but as experienced servants.  We know what the Lord wants us to do and we do it, not by directive, but by understanding.

We hope to eventually reach the state that the Brother of Jared achieved, where we have faith no longer, with perfect knowledge, nothing doubting.

Edited August 29, 2016 by Guest

[Ffenix]

16 hours ago, zil said:

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/jst/jst-rev/12.10?lang=eng#9

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/rev/12.10?lang=eng#9

This is the only scripture I know of where Satan is called "the accuser" - but when you listen carefully, it starts to fit in other places.

You might be thinking about the list of things that condemn us: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/alma/12.14?lang=eng#13

FWIW

ah, thank you for explaining to me. The scriptures make a lot more sense when you have a context and some help don't you think?