3 Nephi 19:18

[Traveler]

2 hours ago, Larry Cotrell said:

Yes, I would agree that symbolism in ancient scripture can have multiple applications in modern society.

Wonderful - then I look forward to exchanges in our opinions (especially how you and arrived at your opinion) concerning what an understanding of ancient manuscripts can add to our modern thinking.  So you can understand my background a little - I am LDS and I am an engineer and scientist.  I should be retired but I love my work consulting in the field of industrial automation, robotics and artificial intelligence.

I find worship interesting – but it is obvious to me that as we define worship – we also such worship employ as common curtesy.  For example, love is a very high form or worship as I have studied and practiced my faith.  But we are commanded by G-d to employ love as a form of worship of others humans that many despise as criminal and worthless.  It is my opinion that if our worship is of G-d first – that as we grow we will understand that our love and worship of him gives reason and purpose to worshiping through love all our fellow men.  That there is no difference in worshiping (loving) G-d or loving other or any of G-d’s creations.

 

The Traveler

[skalenfehl]

On 8/28/2016 at 5:26 PM, Larry Cotrell said:

Why do the disciples pray directly to Jesus in 3 Nephi 19:18? (18 And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and their God.)

Let's go to the scriptures where the very first temple dedication prayer was recorded where Joseph Smith prays to the Father in the name of the Son. Joseph is praying to the same person, calling Him by different names and titles:

Prayer offered at the dedication of the temple at Kirtland, Ohio, 27 March 1836 (see History of the Church, 2:420–26). According to the Prophet’s written statement, this prayer was given to him by revelation.

D&C 109

1 Thanks be to thy name, O Lord God of Israel, who keepest covenant and showest mercy unto thy servants who walk uprightly before thee, with all their hearts—

 2 Thou who hast commanded thy servants to build a house to thy name in this place [Kirtland].

 3 And now thou beholdest, O Lord, that thy servants have done according to thy commandment.

 4 And now we ask thee, Holy Father, in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of thy bosom, in whose name alone salvation can be administered to the children of men, we ask thee, O Lord, to accept of this house, the workmanship of the hands of us, thy servants, which thou didst command us to build.

 5 For thou knowest that we have done this work through great tribulation; and out of our poverty we have given of our substance to build a house to thy name, that the Son of Man might have a place to manifest himself to his people.

 6 And as thou hast said in a revelation, given to us, calling us thy friends, saying—Call your solemn assembly, as I have commanded you;

 7 And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom, seek learning even by study and also by faith;

 8 Organize yourselves; prepare every needful thing, and establish a house, even a house of prayer, a house of fasting, a house of faith, a house of learning, a house of glory, a house of order, a house of God;

 9 That your incomings may be in the name of the Lord, that your outgoings may be in the name of the Lord, that all your salutations may be in the name of the Lord, with uplifted hands unto the Most High—

 10 And now, Holy Father, we ask thee to assist us, thy people, with thy grace, in calling our solemn assembly, that it may be done to thine honor and to thy divine acceptance;

 11 And in a manner that we may be found worthy, in thy sight, to secure a fulfilment of the promises which thou hast made unto us, thy people, in the revelations given unto us;

 12 That thy glory may rest down upon thy people, and upon this thy house, which we now dedicate to thee, that it may be sanctified and consecrated to be holy, and that thy holy presence may be continually in this house;

 13 And that all people who shall enter upon the threshold of the Lord’s house may feel thy power, and feel constrained to acknowledge that thou hast sanctified it, and that it is thy house, a place of thy holiness.

 14 And do thou grant, Holy Father, that all those who shall worship in this house may be taught words of wisdom out of the best books, and that they may seek learning even by study, and also by faith, as thou hast said;

 15 And that they may grow up in thee, and receive a fulness of the Holy Ghost, and be organized according to thy laws, and be prepared to obtain every needful thing;

 16 And that this house may be a house of prayer, a house of fasting, a house of faith, a house of glory and of God, even thy house;

 17 That all the incomings of thy people, into this house, may be in the name of the Lord;

 18 That all their outgoings from this house may be in the name of the Lord;

 19 And that all their salutations may be in the name of the Lord, with holy hands, uplifted to the Most High;

 20 And that no unclean thing shall be permitted to come into thy house to pollute it;

 21 And when thy people transgress, any of them, they may speedily repent and return unto thee, and find favor in thy sight, and be restored to the blessings which thou hast ordained to be poured out upon those who shall reverence thee in thy house.

 22 And we ask thee, Holy Father, that thy servants may go forth from this house armed with thy power, and that thy name may be upon them, and thy glory be round about them, and thine angels have charge over them;

 23 And from this place they may bear exceedingly great and glorious tidings, in truth, unto the ends of the earth, that they may know that this is thy work, and that thou hast put forth thy hand, to fulfil that which thou hast spoken by the mouths of the prophets, concerning the last days.

 24 We ask thee, Holy Father, to establish the people that shall worship, and honorably hold a name and standing in this thy house, to all generations and for eternity;

 25 That no weapon formed against them shall prosper; that he who diggeth a pit for them shall fall into the same himself;

 26 That no combination of wickedness shall have power to rise up and prevail over thy people upon whom thy name shall be put in this house;

 27 And if any people shall rise against this people, that thine anger be kindled against them;

 28 And if they shall smite this people thou wilt smite them; thou wilt fight for thy people as thou didst in the day of battle, that they may be delivered from the hands of all their enemies.

 29 We ask thee, Holy Father, to confound, and astonish, and to bring to shame and confusion, all those who have spread lying reports abroad, over the world, against thy servant or servants, if they will not repent, when the everlasting gospel shall be proclaimed in their ears;

 30 And that all their works may be brought to naught, and be swept away by the hail, and by the judgments which thou wilt send upon them in thine anger, that there may be an end to lyings and slanders against thy people.

 31 For thou knowest, O Lord, that thy servants have been innocent before thee in bearing record of thy name, for which they have suffered these things.

 32 Therefore we plead before thee for a full and complete deliverance from under this yoke;

 33 Break it off, O Lord; break it off from the necks of thy servants, by thy power, that we may rise up in the midst of this generation and do thy work.

 34 O Jehovah, have mercy upon this people, and as all men sin forgive the transgressions of thy people, and let them be blotted out forever.

 35 Let the anointing of thy ministers be sealed upon them with power from on high.

 36 Let it be fulfilled upon them, as upon those on the day of Pentecost; let the gift of tongues be poured out upon thy people, even cloven tongues as of fire, and the interpretation thereof.

 37 And let thy house be filled, as with a rushing mighty wind, with thy glory.

 38 Put upon thy servants the testimony of the covenant, that when they go out and proclaim thy word they may seal up the law, and prepare the hearts of thy saints for all those judgments thou art about to send, in thy wrath, upon the inhabitants of the earth, because of their transgressions, that thy people may not faint in the day of trouble.

 39 And whatsoever city thy servants shall enter, and the people of that city receive their testimony, let thy peace and thy salvation be upon that city; that they may gather out of that city the righteous, that they may come forth to Zion, or to her stakes, the places of thine appointment, with songs of everlasting joy;

 40 And until this be accomplished, let not thy judgments fall upon that city.

 41 And whatsoever city thy servants shall enter, and the people of that city receive not the testimony of thy servants, and thy servants warn them to save themselves from this untoward generation, let it be upon that city according to that which thou hast spoken by the mouths of thy prophets.

 42 But deliver thou, O Jehovah, we beseech thee, thy servants from their hands, and cleanse them from their blood.

 43 O Lord, we delight not in the destruction of our fellow men; their souls are precious before thee;

 44 But thy word must be fulfilled. Help thy servants to say, with thy grace assisting them: Thy will be done, O Lord, and not ours.

 45 We know that thou hast spoken by the mouth of thy prophets terrible things concerning the wicked, in the last days—that thou wilt pour out thy judgments, without measure;

 46 Therefore, O Lord, deliver thy people from the calamity of the wicked; enable thy servants to seal up the law, and bind up the testimony, that they may be prepared against the day of burning.

 47 We ask thee, Holy Father, to remember those who have been driven by the inhabitants of Jackson county, Missouri, from the lands of their inheritance, and break off, O Lord, this yoke of affliction that has been put upon them.

 48 Thou knowest, O Lord, that they have been greatly oppressed and afflicted by wicked men; and our hearts flow out with sorrow because of their grievous burdens.

 49 O Lord, how long wilt thou suffer this people to bear this affliction, and the cries of their innocent ones to ascend up in thine ears, and their blood come up in testimony before thee, and not make a display of thy testimony in their behalf?

 50 Have mercy, O Lord, upon the wicked mob, who have driven thy people, that they may cease to spoil, that they may repent of their sins if repentance is to be found;

 51 But if they will not, make bare thine arm, O Lord, and redeem that which thou didst appoint a Zion unto thy people.

 52 And if it cannot be otherwise, that the cause of thy people may not fail before thee may thine anger be kindled, and thine indignation fall upon them, that they may be wasted away, both root and branch, from under heaven;

 53 But inasmuch as they will repent, thou art gracious and merciful, and wilt turn away thy wrath when thou lookest upon the face of thine Anointed.

 54 Have mercy, O Lord, upon all the nations of the earth; have mercy upon the rulers of our land; may those principles, which were so honorably and nobly defended, namely, the Constitution of our land, by our fathers, be established forever.

 55 Remember the kings, the princes, the nobles, and the great ones of the earth, and all people, and the churches, all the poor, the needy, and afflicted ones of the earth;

 56 That their hearts may be softened when thy servants shall go out from thy house, O Jehovah, to bear testimony of thy name; that their prejudices may give way before the truth, and thy people may obtain favor in the sight of all;

 57 That all the ends of the earth may know that we, thy servants, have heard thy voice, and that thou hast sent us;

 58 That from among all these, thy servants, the sons of Jacob, may gather out the righteous to build a holy city to thy name, as thou hast commanded them.

 59 We ask thee to appoint unto Zion other stakes besides this one which thou hast appointed, that the gathering of thy people may roll on in great power and majesty, that thy work may be cut short in righteousness.

 60 Now these words, O Lord, we have spoken before thee, concerning the revelations and commandments which thou hast given unto us, who are identified with the Gentiles.

 61 But thou knowest that thou hast a great love for the children of Jacob, who have been scattered upon the mountains for a long time, in a cloudy and dark day.

 62 We therefore ask thee to have mercy upon the children of Jacob, that Jerusalem, from this hour, may begin to be redeemed;

 63 And the yoke of bondage may begin to be broken off from the house of David;

 64 And the children of Judah may begin to return to the lands which thou didst give to Abraham, their father.

 65 And cause that the remnants of Jacob, who have been cursed and smitten because of their transgression, be converted from their wild and savage condition to the fulness of the everlasting gospel;

 66 That they may lay down their weapons of bloodshed, and cease their rebellions.

 67 And may all the scattered remnants of Israel, who have been driven to the ends of the earth, come to a knowledge of the truth, believe in the Messiah, and be redeemed from oppression, and rejoice before thee.

 68 O Lord, remember thy servant, Joseph Smith, Jun., and all his afflictions and persecutions—how he has covenanted with Jehovah, and vowed to thee, O Mighty God of Jacob—and the commandments which thou hast given unto him, and that he hath sincerely striven to do thy will.

 69 Have mercy, O Lord, upon his wife and children, that they may be exalted in thy presence, and preserved by thy fostering hand.

 70 Have mercy upon all their immediate connections, that their prejudices may be broken up and swept away as with a flood; that they may be converted and redeemed with Israel, and know that thou art God.

 71 Remember, O Lord, the presidents, even all the presidents of thy church, that thy right hand may exalt them, with all their families, and their immediate connections, that their names may be perpetuated and had in everlasting remembrance from generation to generation.

 72 Remember all thy church, O Lord, with all their families, and all their immediate connections, with all their sick and afflicted ones, with all the poor and meek of the earth; that the kingdom, which thou hast set up without hands, may become a great mountain and fill the whole earth;

 73 That thy church may come forth out of the wilderness of darkness, and shine forth fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners;

 74 And be adorned as a bride for that day when thou shalt unveil the heavens, and cause the mountains to flow down at thy presence, and the valleys to be exalted, the rough places made smooth; that thy glory may fill the earth;

 75 That when the trump shall sound for the dead, we shall be caught up in the cloud to meet thee, that we may ever be with the Lord;

 76 That our garments may be pure, that we may be clothed upon with robes of righteousness, with palms in our hands, and crowns of glory upon our heads, and reap eternal joy for all our sufferings.

 77 O Lord God Almighty, hear us in these our petitions, and answer us from heaven, thy holy habitation, where thou sittest enthroned, with glory, honor, power, majesty, might, dominion, truth, justice, judgment, mercy, and an infinity of fulness, from everlasting to everlasting.

 78 O hear, O hear, O hear us, O Lord! And answer these petitions, and accept the dedication of this house unto thee, the work of our hands, which we have built unto thy name;

 79 And also this church, to put upon it thy name. And help us by the power of thy Spirit, that we may mingle our voices with those bright, shining seraphs around thy throne, with acclamations of praise, singing Hosanna to God and the Lamb!

 80 And let these, thine anointed ones, be clothed with salvation, and thy saints shout aloud for joy. Amen, and Amen.

[mirkwood]

1 hour ago, skalenfehl said:

Joseph is praying to the same person, calling Him by different names and titles:

 

 

Clarifying what you are saying here.

 

Jesus and God the Father are the same entity?  You are professing the belief that Joseph Smith was a believer in the doctrine of the Trinity?

[Larry Cotrell]

20 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

Jesus and God the Father are the same entity?  You are professing the belief that Joseph Smith was a believer in the doctrine of the Trinity?

So was Amulek. Here's Alma 11:44

 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

Edited September 5, 2016 by Larry Cotrell

[Anddenex]

10 minutes ago, Larry Cotrell said:

So was Amulek. Here's Alma 11:44

Amulek indeed wasn't. They are one Eternal God; although, not the trinity which is being implied.

[Larry Cotrell]

4 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

Amulek indeed wasn't. They are one Eternal God; although, not the trinity which is being implied.

What is the difference between the trinity and one eternal God existing three parts?

[skalenfehl]

25 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

Clarifying what you are saying here.

 

Jesus and God the Father are the same entity?  You are professing the belief that Joseph Smith was a believer in the doctrine of the Trinity?

No. That is a Catholic precept. I am, however, clarifying what Joseph Smith already knew and taught, which we read about in Lectures on Faith. But Abinadi also knew this. In his explanation of Isaiah to King Noah and his priests, Abinadi also expounds on Jesus Christ's role as a Father and a Son. Furthermore, in the book of Ether, when Jesus Christ brings the bro of Jared back into His presence, He explains to the bro of Jared that all who come unto Christ become His sons and daughters. At Bountiful, when Jesus Christ unfolded all the mysteries to the people from the foundation of the world until the end, they understood His role and knew Him as not only their Savior, but also their Father. Jesus Christ commands all who believe on Him to call upon His name:

 

Quote

 D&C 93:1 Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and knowthat I am

 

[Anddenex]

5 minutes ago, Larry Cotrell said:

What is the difference between the trinity and one eternal God existing three parts?

From your perspective, nothing as you believe in the trinity. Amulek is referring to the Godhead, one eternal God (not existing parts), three distinct persons. In this case, you are attributing your personal belief to Amulek, not what Amulek actually believed.

[Larry Cotrell]

7 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

From your perspective, nothing as you believe in the trinity. Amulek is referring to the Godhead, one eternal God (not existing parts), three distinct persons. In this case, you are attributing your personal belief to Amulek, not what Amulek actually believed.

Are you saying these three persons are one God or three separate Gods?

[skalenfehl]

Is there a way to preview our posts before submitting? These forums have changed yet again. Please bear with me...

 

Quote

John 14: 23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

While Jesus Christ is both a Father and Son, He also has a Father. Therefore, both Fathers will come to you and make Their abode with you. But because Jesus took upon Himself flesh, He became a Son. Anyway, they are two distinct people. Just like I have a dad and a grandpa and both are fathers. 

Quote

D&C 130:  3 John 14:23—The appearing of the Father and the Son, in that verse, is a personal appearance; and the idea that the Father and the Son dwell in a man’s heart is an old sectarian notion, and is false.

So you see, when Jehovah and Elohim (as we in the church call His Father) visit you, you will see that they are two different people just as Joseph Smith saw in his first vision. They had both also visited Nephi, which we get a glimpse:

Quote

2 Nephi 31:14 But, behold, my beloved brethren, thus came the voice of the Son unto me, saying: After ye have repented of your sins, and witnessed unto the Father that ye are willing to keep my commandments, by the baptism of water, and have received the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, and can speak with a new tongue, yea, even with the tongue of angels, and after this should deny me, it would have been better for you that ye had not known me.

 15 And I heard a voice from the Father, saying: Yea, the words of my Beloved are true and faithful. He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.

So when Jesus Christ visited the people at Bountiful, they understood, just as the bro of Jared understood, who they were praying to. They had faith no longer, for they knew nothing doubting. 

 

[Anddenex]

9 minutes ago, Larry Cotrell said:

Are you saying these three persons are one God or three separate Gods?

There isn't anything further I will be able to share with you, other than what has been shared. They are one eternal God, three distinct persons, but I will refer you to Skalenfehl's answer above mine.

Edited September 5, 2016 by Anddenex

[skalenfehl]

12 minutes ago, Larry Cotrell said:

Are you saying these three persons are one God or three separate Gods?

During Christ's intercessory prayer, he prayed that his disciples would all become one. All who attain Zion are one. We are commanded to become one. That doesn't mean we morph into a singular mass of flesh or matter. It means we become united. One heart and one mind. It therefore follows that all heavenly beings are one. There are many persons, but united. Likewise is the Godhead three persons, but united--one heart one mind. Thus they are one. 

Edited September 5, 2016 by skalenfehl

[Guest]

14 hours ago, Larry Cotrell said:

Are you saying these three persons are one God or three separate Gods?

There is no other "label" that you could take from any other faith or philosophy that accurately describes our belief in God other than the "Godhead".  It certainly has commonalities with many interpretations of the Christian God throughout history.  And some older ideas of the Trinity are pretty much how I'd describe/define the Godhead.  But the definitions and descriptions that other Christians give today of the Trinity are certainly different than our concept of it.  Therefore, we cannot justify calling our belief in it the "Trinity".  We just don't use that label.

[Ezra Pax]

I would like to resurrect this topic or at least leave my thoughts posted to the interwebs.
I am wondering where the current LDS tradition of not praying to Jesus comes from?? (probably the infamous McConky)

All saints from the Old Testament to the New Testament, to the Book of Mormon, and D&C all pray to Jesus at times, and especially for forgiveness.

Throughout the Doctrine and Covenants Joseph Smith and the saints pray to Jesus Christ repeatedly as he hears and answers their prayers. The heading to each section frequently mentions Joseph petitioning “the Lord” (Jesus) and receiving his responses. 
A common invitation in scripture and repeated in the Doctrine and Covenants is to call upon the Lord Jesus to be saved. Jesus speaks to the elect who “humble themselves before me, and call upon me in mighty prayer” (D&C 29:1–2;). 

Jesus Christ hears and answers prayers: “And again, I say unto you that ye shall not go until ye have preached my gospel in those parts, and have strengthened up the church whithersoever it is found, and more especially in Colesville; for, behold, they pray unto me in much faith” (D&C 37:2). 

Jesus speaks directly to an individual and says: “I say unto you, my servant Sidney Gilbert, that I have heard your prayers; and you have called upon me that it should be made known unto you, of the Lord your God, concerning your calling and election in the church, which I, the Lord, have raised up in these last days. Behold, I, the Lord, who was crucified for the sins of the world, give unto you a commandment that you shall forsake the world (53: 1–2). 
Jesus’s openness to his servants’ prayers is not just for recent converts but also Church leaders: “Behold and hearken, O ye elders of my church, who have assembled yourselves together, whose prayers I have heard, and whose hearts I know, and whose desires have come up before me” (D&C 67: 1).

Saints pray to the Father daily and do also call upon Jesus occasionally. So to me it is ironic that LDSaints are averse to praying to Jesus when according to Doctrine and Covenants 25, every saint who sings praises at Church in fact is offering “a prayer unto me [Jesus Christ]” (25:12).