Was The True Gospel Restored By Joseph Smith (acts 3: 19-21)

[Doctor Steuss]

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Now, if you're speaking of opinions, then I'd agree that the opinions of a man are taken as more authoritative (in general) than that of a woman. However, I think this is an unfortunate byproduct of American sociological constructs as opposed to a specific aspect of “Mormonism.”

I think the Mormon prohibition on women holding the Priesthood is the reason for this "continuance" today, if we're asking for opinions.

Perhaps. I did have a kind of interesting experience in one of my rare appearances at church (my niece was blessed last Sunday). I heard a rather interesting testimony while at my brother's ward. Well... it wasn't really all that interesting as I had heard my father say similar things; I guess it just caught me off-guard hearing it from the pulpit.

Anyway, the hombre said that the priesthood is given to men to help them become the equals of women. I tend to think that the priesthood isn't really anything that sets someone "above" anyone else.

But, there are definitely those who take it as a beating stick to exercise unrighteous dominion. Hopefully the day will come when women will once again have the priesthood (as some did in Joseph’s time). I have yet to find any scriptural support for them not being able to, other than tradition.

[prisonchaplain]

In my years in the Church, it was my experience that it doesn't take very much to be the most knowledgeable person in the Ward. Usually there's always one or two people who actually study church doctrine around, and if you read one or two more books than the other guy, you're numero uno.

Oddly enough, in Mormonism, even if a woman is the most knowledgeable, she is never the most knowledgeable. Does that view hold true in the experiences of others?

Pentecostalism, while very conservative, sometimes even fundamentalist, has embraced the role of women in the ministry. The feeling seems to be that if a woman can be baptized in the Spirit and speak in tongues, she can teach, preach, and administer. The most common passage of Scriptures cited as justification are Joel 2:28-29 (In the last days male and female shall prophesy) and Galations--there is no more Greek or Jew, free or slave, male or female--we are one in Christ.

[Jason]

Anyway, the hombre said that the priesthood is given to men to help them become the equals of women.

Yep, I've heard that line of tripe many times. (Usually in the form of "Women are naturally more spiritual than men, so we need the Priesthood to keep us in Church".)

[Jason]

.....and Galations--there is no more Greek or Jew, free or slave, male or female--we are one in Christ.

Interestingly enough chap, that passage is one of the reasons why some monastics adopt opposite gender titles and names. For example, you would find the head of an all male monastery called "abbess" or referred to as "mother". You would also find a nun who adopted a male name "Sister Joseph" or "Sister Jude".

It's an attempt to embody the ideal* that someday, there will be no gender (as it is believed by many that our spirits have no gender).

(* Yes, I know that's not part of Mormon theology, no need to point that out for me, thanks.)

[snipe123]

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Now, if you're speaking of opinions, then I'd agree that the opinions of a man are taken as more authoritative (in general) than that of a woman. However, I think this is an unfortunate byproduct of American sociological constructs as opposed to a specific aspect of “Mormonism.”

I think the Mormon prohibition on women holding the Priesthood is the reason for this "continuance" today, if we're asking for opinions.

Perhaps. I did have a kind of interesting experience in one of my rare appearances at church (my niece was blessed last Sunday). I heard a rather interesting testimony while at my brother's ward. Well... it wasn't really all that interesting as I had heard my father say similar things; I guess it just caught me off-guard hearing it from the pulpit.

Anyway, the hombre said that the priesthood is given to men to help them become the equals of women. I tend to think that the priesthood isn't really anything that sets someone "above" anyone else.

But, there are definitely those who take it as a beating stick to exercise unrighteous dominion. Hopefully the day will come when women will once again have the priesthood (as some did in Joseph’s time). I have yet to find any scriptural support for them not being able to, other than tradition.

I have heard and repeated this variation: "God gave men the priesthood, so that women would have use for them..." I think it's funny and find that it is quite true in the case of my wife and I...hahaha

[Doctor Steuss]

I have heard and repeated this variation: "God gave men the priesthood, so that women would have use for them..." I think it's funny and find that it is quite true in the case of my wife and I...hahaha

One particular thing I find interesting is men need the priesthood in order to enter the temple (even to do baptisms for the dead, the male needs the Aaronic priesthood to enter the temple). Yet, women don’t need it in order to enter the temple. What is it they inherently have that allows them within G-d’s house that men don’t?

Then again, perhaps it is nothing at all…

[sixpacktr]

But, there are definitely those who take it as a beating stick to exercise unrighteous dominion. Hopefully the day will come when women will once again have the priesthood (as some did in Joseph’s time). I have yet to find any scriptural support for them not being able to, other than tradition.

References? I just looked up the following on FAIR regarding women and the PH:

Some feminist historians have argued that women have always held the priesthood, by virtue of the Relief Society organization, which they claim Joseph Smith intended as a "kingdom of priestesses," with women receiving ordinations and performing temple rites.50 Further, historians hearken to nineteenth-century Mormon women being ordained as healers with power to anoint and lay on hands for healing the sick.51 As to whether the Prophet Joseph intended the Relief Society to ordain women to the Priesthood, Jill Derr has shown that Eliza R. Snow and Bathsheba W. Smith remembered that the intent of the Relief Society was never to actually ordain women to the Priesthood. When John Taylor spoke in Salt Lake City in 1880 on the Relief Society, he recalled that "when members of the Relief Society presidency in Nauvoo were 'ordained,' they were not ordained to priesthood offices, but received blessings that set them apart for their sacred callings." Upon hearing this, both Eliza R. Snow and Bathsheba Smith indicated their agreement with President Taylor's statement by nodding their heads.52 Regardless of whether Joseph intended Priesthood ordination for women, he was still extremely far-seeing regarding women's accessibility to spiritual gifts and power. Todd Compton has shown that Smith's inclusion of women in the temple ceremonies was actually a far-seeing and progressive step for women's religious involvement in the 1840s, especially in the context of biblical exclusion of females from temple rites.53

Women are entitled to all of the blessings of the PH thru their husbands or fathers. The church is set up on a patriarchal order. For whatever reason, God decided it was this way...

[Doctor Steuss]

References?

Margaret M. Toscano, "The Missing Rib," Sunstone, July 1985, Issue No. 51, pgs 17-22

or...

Margaret M. Toscano, "If Mormon Women Have Had the Priesthood since 1843, Why Aren't They Using It?," Dialogue, Volume 27, Number 2, Summer 1994, pg. 219

Edited to add:

She [the author of the two refs above] is excommunicated though… for whatever that’s worth.

[sixpacktr]

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References?

Margaret M. Toscano, "The Missing Rib," Sunstone, July 1985, Issue No. 51, pgs 17-22

or...

Margaret M. Toscano, "If Mormon Women Have Had the Priesthood since 1843, Why Aren't They Using It?," Dialogue, Volume 27, Number 2, Summer 1994, pg. 219

Certainly no axe to grind there, right?!

[Doctor Steuss]

Certainly no axe to grind there, right?!

She was excommunicated in 2000. Both of those articles predate her excommunication by a bit (she seemed to be able to remain a member for a full 15 years after writing the one, and for 6 after writing the other).

If there was an axe to grind during that period, it evidently wasn't very sharp.

[darrel]

Thanks for letting me back in.

I have been following Dr David Stewart on translations of artifacts found in an archiological site known as Burroughs Cave. Has anyone else seen anything on it.

[Doctor Steuss]

Thanks for letting me back in.

I have been following Dr David Stewart on translations of artifacts found in an archiological site known as Burroughs Cave. Has anyone else seen anything on it.

Is this the same "David Stewart" that does cumorah.com?

[darrel]

Not that I have seen on his page. He is a retired professional languages interpreter who is now concentrating on lds related artifacts full time

[MaidservantX]

Women don't need to have the priesthood; because they are the priesthood.

Think about that for a very, very long time.

BTW, when I spoke from the pulpit in my ward, I was heard and my teachings were absorbed by both genders among my listeners. (My talk can be found on my blog on this site.)

Here's another cute little story. My dad is from another generation, an older one, more 'traditional'/ hogwash when it comes to gender roles; not that he fills the definition of chauvenist by any means. But I always experienced him as a man with certain prejudices. Well, I am his oldest daughter and I had a best friend growing up during junior high and high school, we were always at each others houses. Come the day, that I left to make my fortune out in the world, married, began a family. My best friend stayed with her parents and did not locate her sweetheart for many years, so basically meaning she was in my dad's ward, the same ward we had grown up in. So, it came time at some point that she was given the calling of Gospel Doctrine teacher (adult Sunday School). I visited home one day and was going to church with my dad and we were going to be listening, then, to my best friend give the Gospel Doctrine teaching. I became very curious of my father's reaction or view of having to listen to a woman, a much younger one at that, teach the gospel to him and whether he could stand to sit there through it. He completely surprised me. He said something to the effect that: "I'd much rather listening to L speak far more than the old blowhards that have usually had the calling." Right on!

[Snow]

Women don't need to have the priesthood; because they are the priesthood.

Think about that for a very, very long time.

Okay - thought about it. It's still false.

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References?

Margaret M. Toscano, "The Missing Rib," Sunstone, July 1985, Issue No. 51, pgs 17-22

or...

Margaret M. Toscano, "If Mormon Women Have Had the Priesthood since 1843, Why Aren't They Using It?," Dialogue, Volume 27, Number 2, Summer 1994, pg. 219

Edited to add:

She [the author of the two refs above] is excommunicated though… for whatever that’s worth.

When the poster asked for references, it was implied that they were also asking not only for the citation, but also what was said or alledged.

[sixpacktr]

Women don't need to have the priesthood; because they are the priesthood.

Think about that for a very, very long time.

Here's another cute little story. My dad is from another generation, an older one, more 'traditional'/ hogwash when it comes to gender roles; not that he fills the definition of chauvenist by any means. But I always experienced him as a man with certain prejudices.

Xhenli,

I don't get where you are going with this. Man and woman, together, one flesh. The PH authority is held by the man, the patriarch in the home, and the mother/wife is blessed thru that authority.

As for the more 'traditional/hogwash' comment, I think that unfortunately we have moved away from what is right. There is too much confusion with the sexes today as it is, and I feel that the older generations knew what their roles were and that there was a lot less of this angst that seems to exist in the world (and church) today. Too many men have become women, trying to not stink, to not sweat, to get in touch with their 'feminine' side, and have become a bunch of wimps. Mormon feminists is the biggest joke I have ever seen. They are so worried about being 'equal' with men that they lose sight of their god-given roles and responsibilities.

But what do I know?

[prisonchaplain]

IMHO, not-stinking is a virtue, regardless of gender.

[sixpacktr]

IMHO, not-stinking is a virtue, regardless of gender.

PC,

In public situations, I totally agree. But stink thru hard work is a virtue, IMHO.

[snipe123]

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Women don't need to have the priesthood; because they are the priesthood.

Think about that for a very, very long time.

Okay - thought about it. It's still false.

Ditto...lol...where is this idea taught in the scriptures exactly? If your serious I can't begin to imagine the kind of scriptural gymnastics you have to go through to come up with that concept...

[MaidservantX]

Isaac, more on this in the "Reply to Six re Gender thread".

[darrel]

Rather than quote references to David Stewart interpretations, his web site www.72languages.com, has very interesting information on languages including the Adamic language which appears to be the writing on the Burroughs Cave artifacts. His interpretations indicate that The origionators were the Jerodite people who came to this continant from the Tower of Babble.

[Jason]

Rather than quote references to David Stewart interpretations, his web site www.72languages.com, has very interesting information on languages including the Adamic language which appears to be the writing on the Burroughs Cave artifacts. His interpretations indicate that The origionators were the Jerodite people who came to this continant from the Tower of Babble.

Not to be the bearer of what I think would be a rather obvious observation, but how would anyone determine that something was the original "Adamic" language?

[prisonchaplain]

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Rather than quote references to David Stewart interpretations, his web site www.72languages.com, has very interesting information on languages including the Adamic language which appears to be the writing on the Burroughs Cave artifacts. His interpretations indicate that The origionators were the Jerodite people who came to this continant from the Tower of Babble.

Not to be the bearer of what I think would be a rather obvious observation, but how would anyone determine that something was the original "Adamic" language?

Jason, you and I both know that "Adamic language," was just a way of making the glossalalia the early LDS spoke sound other than pentecostal. (Please note my tongue sticking firmly out my cheek, folks! Please?)

[Jason]

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Rather than quote references to David Stewart interpretations, his web site www.72languages.com, has very interesting information on languages including the Adamic language which appears to be the writing on the Burroughs Cave artifacts. His interpretations indicate that The origionators were the Jerodite people who came to this continant from the Tower of Babble.

Not to be the bearer of what I think would be a rather obvious observation, but how would anyone determine that something was the original "Adamic" language?

Jason, you and I both know that "Adamic language," was just a way of making the glossalalia the early LDS spoke sound other than pentecostal. (Please note my tongue sticking firmly out my cheek, folks! Please?)

I think you should start a pentecostal movement in the LDS church. Just might make that three-hour block bearable every week. B)

[Doctor Steuss]

I guess if you combined Journal of Discourses 2:342, History of the Church 1:297, the November 1st 1878 issue of the Woman's Exponent (page 83) and Journal of Discourses 3:100, you might be able to flesh out a few words to search for. But, we might have to do some crazy Kabalistic type mojo to flesh it out of the text.

Then again, maybe those kooky Olmecs preserved some of it when they were joined by the Jaradites.

Or, maybe we just need some chemical analysis to ascertain the purity of a language (Zephaniah 3:9)… the purer it is, the more likely it’s Adamic (or maybe cocaine).

Or maybe…

The above is from Meridian, “In Search of the Adamic Language”

by Ronald P. Millett (September 7, 2001).