The nature of evil and God’spossible involvement in its creation

[Edspringer]

13 hours ago, askandanswer said:

Ed, I'm hoping you might be willing to share your thoughts on what evil actually is.

This is a side issue, but one's that I've just been reminded while reading Ed's reply, of a topic that my son and I have discussed once or twice before. If opposition is necessary for the proper exercise of agency, and if learning how to properly exercise our agency is one of the main reasons why we are here, and since Lucifer and his associates are doing such a fine job in providing the required opposition, does it then follow that Lucifer deserves some kind of reward in the next life for doing such a good job of providing something that is essential to our growth? And if it was not actually Lucifer providing that opposition, then it would have to be someone else, because opposition is necessary to the proper operation of the plan. My son sometimes postulates that Lucifer is some sort of sacrificial "fall guy" for God's plan, and thinks that when everything is over, God will pat Satan on the back and say well done, you did a good job in what you were supposed to do. This possibility is given a small degree of support by the fact that Lucifer will indeed be given a kingdom to reign over, and the same cannot be said of those who end up in the telestial or terrestrial worlds, although I imagine that the kingdom over which Lucifer will reign will not be a terribly desirable kingdom to have.

Hi, my friend @askandanswer

I like discussions like that. It is always good to share our thoughts and learn from others. I myself have learned a lot in this forum.

Through what I have studied, pondered and learned from scriptures and with friends, God Himself deals with opposition.  He is a perfect being, having all knowledge and all wisdom, all power.  It doesn’t mean He doesn’t have problems to solve. He said to Abraham:

“I (God) dwell in the midst of them all; I now, therefore, have come down unto thee to declare unto thee the works which my hands have made, wherein my wisdom excelleth them all, for I rule in the heavens above, and in the earth beneath, in all wisdom and prudence, over all the intelligences thine eyes have seen from the beginning; I came down in the beginning in the midst of all the intelligences thou hast seen” (PGP, Abraham 3:21)

Our Father in Heaven rules with all wisdom and prudence over all the intelligences, which means (in my view) that He deals with opposition among all the intelligences, because through the laws He instituted, they are allowed to act for themselves and not by compulsion. Otherwise there wouldn’t be any progress.

Oppositon is an eternal principle because it seems to be a pattern among all the exalted beings in order to foster the exaltation of their children. Absolute evil (like a living entity) doesn’t seem to be the case, in my opinion. What I believe is that all intelligences are free to act and this action leads closer to God’s purposes or drives away from it.

Lucifer, on all the light he received in Heaven, made his choice, but not because some entity tempted him, but because of his own making. He didn’t exercise faith in Heavenly Father and in His Beloved Son as our Savior and Redeemer. Thus, he could not progress in glory and was cast out from Heaven.

Later I post more comments. I'm in a rush now LOL

[Guest]

3 hours ago, askandanswer said:

I think the following scriptures give support to the idea:

(New Testament | John 8:38) I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

 (New Testament | John 5:19) Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

(New Testament | Revelation 1:6)  And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever.  Amen.

 And from the King Follette discourse: Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to theresurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power.

I understood your idea to be that varying generations of Gods have differing interpretations of what is good and what is evil. I understood the analogy you offered in support of the idea to mean that because varying mortal generations of parents have differing interpretations of how to raise children, then varying generations of Gods have differing interpretations of good and evil. If I misconstrue your idea and your evidence, then I'm certainly open to correction. At the moment I don't see that the verses of scripture you offered as support are relevant to your argument because they address different topics than your argument addresses.

John 8:38 contrasts Jesus following his Father, God's example against Jesus' opponents who followed Satan, their Father's example.

John 5:19 is about Jesus, himself, and his mission in which he does only the things God wants him to do.

Revelations 1:6 is about our role as Priesthood holders in the Kingdom in relationship to Christ, and above that is Christ's role and relationship to God.

The Follette discourse excerpt directly addresses the concept of eternal progression, and it's nature of step-by-step degrees of learning.

So, I'm not apprehending any support from these verses to warrant your initial claim nor your analogy.

[Traveler]

Sometimes I wonder how well we understand evil in mortality.  There seems to be to be a paradox and so far @Edspringer seems to have similar thought to mine.  I do not believe that evil is a substance that can be created.  Rather evil is the possibility that must exist in order that there be a choice of good.  The attempt to bring about a choice of good without evil – is itself evil and the very essence of Lucifer becoming Satan.

Evil has to be as eternal as G-d and his goodness.  The reason that G-d exist and is good is because he chooses good over evil.  But he could not choose good unless evil was possible.  But there is more to good and evil.

Because there must be evil to choose good and because evil cannot endure the presents of G-d it is impossible to come to a knowledge of good or evil in the presents of G-d.  And this is the reason that we had to fall to gain the knowledge of good and evil.  Death and Hell are synonymous – two terms trying to describe the same thing.  Likewise – eternal life and exaltation are synonymous.   Thus the choice of eternal life (exaltation) can only be a choice when Death (Hell) is possible.  Symbolically the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil is the gateway to the choice between good and evil.  Without knowledge of possibilities one cannot act to make a choice but rather would be acted upon by some outside force that may or may not be acting out of knowledge.

The knowledge of evil comes about by death and by the experience of death we gain knowledge of evil.  The knowledge of good come about through the atonement of Christ – Thus it is necessary to experience both death and the atonement to have knowledge of good and evil – the choice is made complete at what the scriptures call the final judgment of G-d.  This final judgment, I have concluded, is when we will stand before G-d having experienced death (evil) and the atonement by being raised to life or what is called the resurrection (good) – thus we have knowledge.  And at the final judgment we make an account of our choice of life (good) or death (evil – Hell). 

 

The Traveler

[Guest]

God does not create evil.  We chose evil or good.  God is God precisely because He only chooses good.  Therefore He does not choose to create evil.

Our intelligences had elements of good and evil.  That which God created of us (our spirits) are perfect by nature.  But some of us got more corrupted by our innate natures than others did.  Satan became completely corrupt.

[Traveler]

16 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

God does not create evil.  We chose evil or good.  God is God precisely because He only chooses good.  Therefore He does not choose to create evil.

Our intelligences had elements of good and evil.  That which God created of us (our spirits) are perfect by nature.  But some of us got more corrupted by our innate natures than others did.  Satan became completely corrupt.

How can something that is perfect become completely corrupt?????

 

The Traveler

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Traveler said:

How can something that is perfect become completely corrupt?????

 

The Traveler

You're apparently using an opinion on the qualities of "perfect" which I do not share.

[Traveler]

6 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

You're apparently using an opinion on the qualities of "perfect" which I do not share.

What then did you mean?

Quote

.....That which God created of us (our spirits) are perfect by nature......Satan became completely corrupt.

 

The Traveler

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Traveler said:

What then did you mean?

 

The Traveler

I meant perfect.  What did you mean?

[Traveler]

9 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I meant perfect.  What did you mean?

I am trying to figure out what you mean - do you mean Satan's spirit was not created by G-d and our spirits were?  I am having problems following your logic - so I am asking questions in hope to understand better.  How does something that is perfect become completely corrupt???

 

The Traveler

Edited October 26, 2016 by Traveler

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I am trying to figure out what you mean - do you mean Satan's spirit was not created by G-d and our spirits were?  I am having problems following your logic - so I am asking questions in hope to understand better.

 

The Traveler

I don't know how you got that out of what I said.  I'm assuming that you do understand the storyline of pre-mortality.  Given that, what explanation are you asking for?

[Traveler]

6 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I don't know how you got that out of what I said.  I'm assuming that you do understand the storyline of pre-mortality.  Given that, what explanation are you asking for?

Do you believe Satan was perfect and became completely corrupt?  If you do not believe this is the case - why did you say it - or did I missunderstand you?

 

The Traveler

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Do you believe Satan was perfect and became completely corrupt?  If you do not believe this is the case - why did you say it - or did I missunderstand you?

The Traveler

Again, that is something you're reading into my post that I never said.  In fact, I specifically said otherwise.  But you're conflating several things together that I separate in my mind.  So, again, you're assuming qualities that I never stated.  And if you assume those are given, please understand that I don't.

[Traveler]

6 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Again, that is something you're reading into my post that I never said.  In fact, I specifically said otherwise.  But you're conflating several things together that I separate in my mind.  So, again, you're assuming qualities that I never stated.  And if you assume those are given, please understand that I don't.

I did not intend this to be difficult - Were our spirits perfect by nature???  Was Satan one of the spirit children of G-d that was perfect by nature exactly as ours were?  Or was he something else very different than the rest of us that I missed? 

 

The Traveler

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I did not intend this to be difficult - Were our spirits perfect by nature???  Was Satan one of the spirit children of G-d that was perfect by nature exactly as ours were?  Or was he something else very different than the rest of us that I missed? 

 

The Traveler

I really can't answer your question when you're not really asking what you mean.

Edited October 26, 2016 by Guest

[askandanswer]

40 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

God does not create evil.  We chose evil or good.  God is God precisely because He only chooses good.  Therefore He does not choose to create evil.

Our intelligences had elements of good and evil.  That which God created of us (our spirits) are perfect by nature.  But some of us got more corrupted by our innate natures than others did.  Satan became completely corrupt.

I'm not suggesting that God created evil - I'm suggesting that He may have been involved in its creation. His involvement may have two aspects, one more direct, and one less direct. First, the more direct involvement: To act against the will of God is evil and possibly that is the only kind of evil there is. Therefore, as soon as God has a will on a particular subject, eg, that we should choose red apples rather than green, it then becomes possible to commit evil in relation to our choices of apples, when prior to God declaring His will on the subject of apple choice, it was not possible to commit evil in relation to choice of apple colour. So by declaring His will, God brings evil into possibility when previously no such possibility existed. However, simply having a will on something, does not bring evil into existence, it only brings into existence the possibility of evil. Evil is actually done when we choose to violate that will. This brings me to the second, much less direct aspect of God's involvement in evil. To some extent, God encouraged/allowed/facilitated the development of our ability to choose. Without that ability, we could not choose to do evil. So to the extent that a Being teaches a student a particular skill, that Being might not then be entirely free from responsibility for how His student uses that skill. This is admittedly a far less direct form of involvement, but it is also far from being no involvement.   

I think our intelligences developed with certain tendencies. Those tendencies only led to evil when we exercised our newly developing ability to make choices that  violated the will of God. 

[CV75]

On 10/25/2016 at 11:58 AM, askandanswer said:

 

This questions occurred to me while reading the post by curious_mormon about who tempted Satan.

Is there any such thing as absolute evil, or does evil only exist in relation to God’s will? If God has no particular will or preference for how many angels can be allowed to dance on the head of a pin, then perhaps it is no evil if 1 or 1000 angels dance on the head of a pin. However, if God suddenly decides and declares that only 2 angels may dance on the head of a pin then all of a sudden it becomes evil for any other number of angels, other than two, to dance on the head of a pin. Is there any evil in relation to matters on which God has no particular will? By having a will on a particular matter, is it only at that point that the possibility of evil in relation to that matter comes into existence? Taking things a step further, if this is true – that the possibility of evil comes into existence only once God has stated His will on a particular matter – then I guess it would also be true to say that that evil does not become a reality, or no evil is actually committed, until God’s will on that particular matter is violated.

If this is true, and I’m inclined to think that there is reason to believe that it may be, then by creating the possibility of evil, and by giving, or allowing us the opportunity to choose and act, then this might point to the (for me) unexpected conclusion that God has been intimately involved in the creation of evil. This does not in any way detract from the fact that we are all individually responsible for any evil choices we make. (And I would never presume that any one on this forum would ever make such choices)  

I would say there is as much absolute evil as there is absolute truth. "All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence." (D&C 93:30) Truth may be absolute, but there are different kinds or spheres of truth, each sphere having its own attribute of absoluteness. We choose which spheres to accept, obey and sustain just like God does. Any choice contrary to God's, which He is teaching us to uphold, is evil.

God accepts and shares all truth, every kind of truth in every sphere.

He gave us our agency, but we have always had our intelligence and the will to apply it. So He did not create evil; we do (and Satan certainly did to the max!). His plan promises we will enjoy all truth, but as reflected in the degrees of glory, which are part of all existence referred to in D&C 93:30, we may not accept and share all truth, or every kind of truth in every sphere.

Satan is in outer darkness because he rejected those truths that honor God's honor. I suppose he keep enough truth for him to hang around somewhere, but where, I don't plan to find out! And if he were to reject all truth, every kind in every sphere, he will cease to even exist.

Edited October 26, 2016 by CV75

[Guest]

39 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

So by declaring His will, God brings evil into possibility when previously no such possibility existed. However, simply having a will on something, does not bring evil into existence, it only brings into existence the possibility of evil. Evil is actually done when we choose to violate that will. This brings me to the second, much less direct aspect of God's involvement in evil. To some extent, God encouraged/allowed/facilitated the development of our ability to choose. Without that ability, we could not choose to do evil.

You're making some fundamental assumptions that I believe to be in error.

I don't believe good is defined by God's will.  I believe God's will to be perfectly in tune with fundamental principles of "good".

Agency is a fundamental principle of good.  It simply exists because good exists.  The fact we have agency results from the fact that God is good -- he's all for agency.  That which we do to decrease our agency is evil.  That which we do to increase our agency is good.  Without agency, neither good nor evil can exist.

So, if we assume my statements above are correct, the conundrum your indicate here is:

1) Agency is the basis of what is good.
2) To be good means to preserve agency.
3) To preserve agency means allowing evil to flourish.
4) Therefore, good will always allow evil to flourish.

Yes, it does.  "Allowing" does not in any way mean "cause".

But do you see the flaw in the logic?

Edited October 26, 2016 by Guest

[Traveler]

10 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I really can't answer your question when you're not really asking what you mean.

Sorry - it is not what I mean - I was trying to understand what you mean?

Quote

That which God created of us (our spirits) are perfect by nature.  But some of us got more corrupted by our innate natures than others did.  Satan became completely corrupt.

What I do not understand is how something that is perfect - becomes completely corrupt.  I had hoped you would elaborate.

BTW - I do agree that G-d uses his will to force, discipline and align himself with goodness - the term disciple comes from the same root as discipline.  But; though will and agency are very closely related (free will and agency) -- I do not think that they are the same.  Our will is unique to our individual character and comes from within us – agency, on the other hand, is not innate to our character – it come from G-d as gift to us.

 

The Traveler

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Traveler said:

What I do not understand is how something that is perfect - becomes completely corrupt.  I had hoped you would elaborate.

I have a room full of purified air in the proper atmospheric ratio of N, O, & other constituent elements, then I release 1L of HCN into that room, is the room completely contaminated?  What is the nature of the N & O in this case?

I have a pure white towel.  I drop it in a vat of red dye, what is the condition of the towel?

No one in their right minds who deal with reality rather than a "what if" ivory tower thought process would say, "But the towel itself is still pure, it's just got dye in it".  Likewise, "all you have to do is take the HCN out".  The common thought would be that the towel is ruined and the air in that room is unbreathable.

You don't see how it can become completely corrupt because you are the type of person that would say exactly those things.

It goes back to definition of perfect.  And we just have completely different definitions.  In your mind "perfect" means that it can never become imperfect.  My definition does not include that.

 

Edited October 27, 2016 by Guest

[Traveler]

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I have a room full of purified air in the proper atmospheric ratio of N, O, & other constituent elements, then I release 1L of HCN into that room, is the room completely contaminated?  What is the nature of the N & O in this case?

I have a pure white towel.  I drop it in a vat of red dye, what is the condition of the towel?

No one in their right minds who deal with reality rather than a "what if" ivory tower thought process would say, "But the towel itself is still pure, it's just got dye in it".  Likewise, "all you have to do is take the HCN out".  The common thought would be that the towel is ruined and the air in that room is unbreathable.

You don't see how it can become completely corrupt because you are the type of person that would say exactly those things.

It goes back to definition of perfect.  And we just have completely different definitions.  In your mind "perfect" means that it can never become imperfect.  My definition does not include that.

 

 

Thank You for your response – I have a much better understanding now of your interpretation of perfect.  Often the concept of incorruptible is included with what some define as “perfect”; especially when associated with G-d or as a description of G-d (as used in scripture).  Thanks again for clearing that up.

 

The Traveler

[Guest]

After reading what @Carborendum and @Traveler discussed with regard to their respective definitions and perceptions of the meaning of perfect I'm prone to conclude that our language isn't capable of adequately describing God as He really is. This seems to have become apparent as I've observed our efforts to use the same word to describe God compared to Satan as he may have once been. It occurs to me that asking myself if one being can be perfect and another being be (as a child might say) perfecter underscores the word's inadequacy. Of course what we know contrasted with all that we don't know about either being is part of the difficulty, too. (I suspect that the difference between what we know and what we don't is like my scratching the ground and comparing the mass of what I have under my nails with the mass of Earth in its entirety).

[Traveler]

 

The scientific definition of intelligence is the ability to learn.  But many in religion do not like to deal with such concepts of learning as it relates to G-d.  They think since G-d already knows everything – that it is impossible for G-d to learn anything.  Thus, to them, learning is viewed as a un-G-dly attribute.   But G-d tells us that best description of those in the Kingdom of heaven (for instance – Him) is like unto children – and children are the best learners?????

I do not think language is the problem in describing G-d.  It is knowing what you are talking about in the first place and I am inclined to believe those that know G-d best in mortality realize that we really do not know much about G-d at all – certainly they do not know enough to brag about it.

I was once having a conversation with a person claiming to have a personal relationship with G-d.  So I asked them a few questions like – How tall is he?  How long is his hair? What color are his eyes?  Does he like to sing and does he prefer to sing tenor or base?  What is his favorite music?  Interestingly my questions made them a little ticked off at me.  I responded that it was them that claimed to have a personal relationship with G-d so I thought they might be able to describe something personal about G-d – something (anything) other than the general stuff we are told about in scripture.

The more I learn about anything important, the more I realize I do not know much at all.  I have discovered that G-d knows a great deal about me than I know about Him.  He knows me personally but if I am honest I must admit I hardly know him at all.  I do not think anybody can know something about G-d that cannot apply to themselves and how they live their life.  That if someone really knew any principle of G-d – that they would live by that principle – at least as well as they understood it.  Sometimes I think G-d is a little concern when we pretend we know more than we do.  For example Jesus asked the question – How can you say you say you love G-d when you do not know him all that much and that you really do not love your fellow man all that much that you know much better?  I am not sure I know myself that much – let alone others that constantly confuse me – sometimes more than I confuse myself.

 

The Traveler

Edited October 30, 2016 by Traveler

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Traveler said:

 ... I do not think language is the problem in describing G-d.  It is knowing what you are talking about...

Mmmm, perhaps. Moreover, perhaps the problem isn't a problem, but merely a challenge--that of spending the time and energy to ensure understanding in order to achieve effective communication. 

Quote

“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.” “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.” --Lewis Carroll

 

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, UT.starscoper said:

Mmmm, perhaps. Moreover, perhaps the problem isn't a problem, but merely a challenge--that of spending the time and energy to ensure understanding in order to achieve effective communication. 

 

 

The simple and obvious answer is to be inspired by the Spirit.  But my experience with the Spirit teaching me of G-d is somewhat different than how the Spirit brings me to understanding of empirical things.  With empirical things I have to mostly study, work at it and figure things out and then get conformation.  But for divine things it would seem that I do much the same study and try to work things out – but then it seems I do not make much progress – then after a time I weary of trying to make progress and forget what I was trying to understand – Then; sometimes, even years later, some seemingly unrelated event happens and I find myself deeply involved in the event and it is like a light comes on and all the questions fade away and I am seeing clearly the question that I sought before and forgot - now mostly or completely resolved before me and a reminding thought that this is the answer I sought for some time ago – and I remember everything.  All the thoughts come with gentle assurance that G-d loves and appreciates that I sought for such understanding.  But it is all a private thing that would last and bring comfort again and again just thinking of it.  It is like a great prize that I can find many things connected and understood – far beyond the initial question – like great knowledge growing inside me answering thousands of new questions that I never thought of before.

With empirical understanding – the answer usually comes with drama and excitement for me to share – but seldom does anyone share my drama and excitement – and then the excitement and drama melts away and I realize – now there are a thousand more questions and all the excitement and drama is gone and I wonder why I was I ever so happy with it – and life goes on.

 

The Traveler

[Guest]

@Traveler I get a distinct impression that we are talking about different topics, but I'll take the blame if it was I who first misconstrued your other posts and if I jumped from them off in a different direction. ?