The Brutal Truth

[Traveler]

One of the interesting expressions is the idea concerning the folly of youth and the wisdom of age. Although I was impressed with the lovely young lady I met and married; the power of love and the strength of our marriage came years later as we grew older together knitting our differences into a wonderful and beautiful tapestry. I realize that many take stock in the love at first sight concept – which I also hold but the love generated at first sight is not the power from which everlasting relationships are made. It is only a beginning.

And so I believe it is with truth. Many times we become convinced of a thing early on – but that is not really the power of truth. For me, the beginning of truth is like planting a seed that even when it first begins to grow is quite tender and requires great care and attention. The power of truth is what comes with time and seasons. It does not narrow our understanding of things but expands and add to all things we encounter. It does not create contradictions but is a greatly prized treasure that is always growing. As time passes it become less of a mystery and more of something that should be plain and simple to everyone. Doubts of it fade over time and the joy of it expands.

I realized that many abandon truth during the early seemingly inconveniences; their youthful joy is replaced with sour disposition and cranky demeanor. Is it ignorance that is bliss and knowledge that turns people into enemies? I do not think so. I am convinced that truth and knowledge is what makes a person kind when it is the only source around them. It is truth that turns a person to kindness when all others are convinced there is no reason or place for compassion. When other see only despair it is the truth and those that enjoy it that lives for joy even through the darkest nights of despair.

Does my belief in Christ limit me and what I can do – not really? My faith in Christ and living according to his gift of truth opens me to divine possibilities and the pursuits of G-d.

The Traveler

[onyx]

One of the interesting expressions is the idea concerning the folly of youth and the wisdom of age. Although I was impressed with the lovely young lady I met and married; the power of love and the strength of our marriage came years later as we grew older together knitting our differences into a wonderful and beautiful tapestry. I realize that many take stock in the love at first sight concept – which I also hold but the love generated at first sight is not the power from which everlasting relationships are made. It is only a beginning.

And so I believe it is with truth. Many times we become convinced of a thing early on – but that is not really the power of truth. For me, the beginning of truth is like planting a seed that even when it first begins to grow is quite tender and requires great care and attention. The power of truth is what comes with time and seasons. It does not narrow our understanding of things but expands and add to all things we encounter. It does not create contradictions but is a greatly prized treasure that is always growing. As time passes it become less of a mystery and more of something that should be plain and simple to everyone. Doubts of it fade over time and the joy of it expands.

I realized that many abandon truth during the early seemingly inconveniences; their youthful joy is replaced with sour disposition and cranky demeanor. Is it ignorance that is bliss and knowledge that turns people into enemies? I do not think so. I am convinced that truth and knowledge is what makes a person kind when it is the only source around them. It is truth that turns a person to kindness when all others are convinced there is no reason or place for compassion. When other see only despair it is the truth and those that enjoy it that lives for joy even through the darkest nights of despair.

Does my belief in Christ limit me and what I can do – not really? My faith in Christ and living according to his gift of truth opens me to divine possibilities and the pursuits of G-d.

The Traveler

Very empowering traveler....thank you

[Elphaba]

One of the interesting expressions is the idea concerning the folly of youth and the wisdom of age. Although I was impressed with the lovely young lady I met and married; the power of love and the strength of our marriage came years later as we grew older together knitting our differences into a wonderful and beautiful tapestry. I realize that many take stock in the love at first sight concept – which I also hold but the love generated at first sight is not the power from which everlasting relationships are made. It is only a beginning.

And so I believe it is with truth. Many times we become convinced of a thing early on – but that is not really the power of truth. For me, the beginning of truth is like planting a seed that even when it first begins to grow is quite tender and requires great care and attention. The power of truth is what comes with time and seasons. It does not narrow our understanding of things but expands and add to all things we encounter. It does not create contradictions but is a greatly prized treasure that is always growing. As time passes it become less of a mystery and more of something that should be plain and simple to everyone. Doubts of it fade over time and the joy of it expands.

I realized that many abandon truth during the early seemingly inconveniences; their youthful joy is replaced with sour disposition and cranky demeanor. Is it ignorance that is bliss and knowledge that turns people into enemies? I do not think so. I am convinced that truth and knowledge is what makes a person kind when it is the only source around them. It is truth that turns a person to kindness when all others are convinced there is no reason or place for compassion. When other see only despair it is the truth and those that enjoy it that lives for joy even through the darkest nights of despair.

Does my belief in Christ limit me and what I can do – not really? My faith in Christ and living according to his gift of truth opens me to divine possibilities and the pursuits of G-d.

The Traveler

I was with you until your third paragraph, which once again, like you so often do, is writen in a manner that is nonsensical.

Would you mind re-writing it using simple, straightforward sentences using half the words?

Thanks,

Elphaba

[Alaskagain]

harumph <just clearing my throat, folks>Pardon me, please.

Thank you, Traveler.

It has been said <unknown source> "Love is not something you fall into; it is something you grow."

The attraction, or "chemistry", or "Love at first sight" is simply the seed. Love watered long with honor, righteousness, and humility results in joy unfeigned.

Traveler, there is nothing brutal about the truth you speak. Those who abandon truth pay for that act with unhappiness; there are those of that group who may appear to be happy, and there are those who deny truth who are convinced they are happy; but true joy they do not know, and in that comparison they are and will be unhappy, until they change their attitude. We always have hope that they will do just that.

totally edited

[Traveler]

Thanks for the responses:

One of the characteristics of spirituality is an inner awareness. I am suggesting that there is a spiritual nature that when one becomes inwardly aware of truth the spiritual result is joy. This joy is express to others in a manner that all that share the spiritual awareness of joy in a circle of love and compassion. At the same time those that are not connected with truth have no inner awareness of joy and as a result radiate a sour attitude that destroys the circle of joy, love and compassion.

Jesus warned about “false teachers” that would destroy the flock (awareness of joy in a circle of love and compassion). Shakespeare said it this way – “To thy own self be true and it shall follow as the night the day – thou cannot be false with any man.”

One indication of someone that is connected to truth – self aware of truth – is an attitude of joy which is part of the light of Christ.

The Traveler

[Jason]

Those who abandon truth pay for that act with unhappiness; there are those of that group who may appear to be happy, and there are those who deny truth who are convinced they are happy; but true joy they do not know, and in that comparison they are and will be unhappy, until they change their attitude. We always have hope that they will do just that.

Is that what all the Prozac is about?

[Traveler]

<div class='quotemain'>

Those who abandon truth pay for that act with unhappiness; there are those of that group who may appear to be happy, and there are those who deny truth who are convinced they are happy; but true joy they do not know, and in that comparison they are and will be unhappy, until they change their attitude. We always have hope that they will do just that.

Is that what all the Prozac is about?

Perhaps not all but likely some. It is not enough to have an emperical (logical) connection to truth - one must have an inner (spiritual) connection for there to be joy. (man is that he might have joy - is not so much logical as it is a spiritual declaration).

Many measure the concept that Satan would have others be miserable like unto himself in emperical (logical) terms. But this is also a spiritual declaration that has to do with inner awareness or I should say to shut down inner awareness. I believe Alaskagain is correct in their understanding of happiness verses unhappiness.

The Traveler

[Alaskagain]

We always have hope that they will do just that.

I made a mistake here. Instead of the above sentence, I should have said the more general, "There is always hope that they will do just that." Instead I used "We", inferring that I consider myself to be a knower of truth and of being in a state of that joy. That is not what I think, nor am I in that state. Ever pressing forward, but far from being there. I am myself one of the "they"s, in various areas of truth.

[Jason]

Thanks for that clarification Alaskagain.

I think Traveler's OP is quite on the mark. I originally felt slighted by your reply, however, as it seemed to imply that non-Mormons were "unhappy".

Again, thanks for your clarification.

[Alaskagain]

No problem, Jason. I did sound rather self-righteous, didn't I?

When a person discovers a soul-felt (empirical + spiritual) truth , and then denies that truth, I see no way for him to be happy.

One of the happiest/most joyful/ at peace women I have ever known was the mother of 7 children -- and a Baptist who loved the Lord; she lived her life according to the spiritual truths she knew. No, I don't think Latter Day Saints have an exclusive corner on joy, by any means. (And my example is not intended to exclude non-Christians.)

[Elphaba]

Hi Traveler, Thanks for re-writing that paragraph (or writing a new one if that's what you did.) This one I can understand.

One of the characteristics of spirituality is an inner awareness. I am suggesting that there is a spiritual nature that when one becomes inwardly aware of truth the spiritual result is joy. This joy is express to others in a manner that all that share the spiritual awareness of joy in a circle of love and compassion.

I'm sure this is true. If one feels joyful, especially within a circle of love and compassion, there aren't many human emotions that we respond to better than that one. I disagree one has to have a "spiritual awareness." I know people who are atheists who feel just as joyful, especially in a circle of love and compassion. And boy can they cut up a rug!

At the same time those that are not connected with truth have no inner awareness of joy and as a result radiate a sour attitude that destroys the circle of joy, love and compassion.

I think this is true also, up to a point. Every single person is different, and many people struggle with this to different degrees. It is just too simplistic to say that all "those" experience this in the same amount. There are literally a million things that could happen to a person to do that, and you simply don't have the expertise to make that diagnosis.

For example, a very spiritual person could be suffering from a mental illiness that prevents him from feelings these things. If it's serious, none of the prayers in the world are going to help that person until he gets the correct medication(s). Once he does, and it's successful, all of the spiritual joy, love and compassion can return. But you, knowing nothing about the person, would have made an erroneous judgment that you had no right to make.

I noticed you do this in a lot of your posts, and I guess I wonder why? Why do you need to write posts that, while seemingly loving and compassionate, are actually oftentimes simplistic and judgmental about thousands of people you don't even know. I know you're heart is in the right place, but I don't think you realize that you do this.

Jesus warned about “false teachers” that would destroy the flock (awareness of joy in a circle of love and compassion). Shakespeare said it this way – “To thy own self be true and it shall follow as the night the day – thou cannot be false with any man.”

Exactly! To thine own self be true! Not to "Traveler" be true. And Traveler has no idea what that truth is, but often writes as if he does.

One indication of someone that is connected to truth – self aware of truth – is an attitude of joy which is part of the light of Christ.

Why does it have to be of Christ? Why can't it just be an attitude of joy? Do you think if I lined up 10 joyful people in front of you, you could tell me which ones were Christians and which ones weren't?

Elphaba

[Dr T]

Do you think if I lined up 10 joyful people in front of you, you could tell me which ones were Christians and which ones weren't?

That is a great question Elph. I know I couldn't but God could.

[prisonchaplain]

There are certainly religious people with sour demeanors, who live in failure, despite the power of the God that resides within them. Likewise, there are atheiests, agnostics, and the non-religious who are upbeat, happy, positive, confident people. Yet, I dare say that the believer in God is more joyful with God than without, and that happy athiest could have an even happier, deeper life with God.

There are certainly religious people with sour demeanors, who live in failure, despite the power of the God that resides within them. Likewise, there are atheiests, agnostics, and the non-religious who are upbeat, happy, positive, confident people. Yet, I dare say that the believer in God is more joyful with God than without, and that happy athiest could have an even happier, deeper life with God.

[Elphaba]

Do you think if I lined up 10 joyful people in front of you, you could tell me which ones were Christians and which ones weren't?

That is a great question Elph. I know I couldn't but God could.

And if there is a God, Dr. T. That's fine.

My concern is imperfect people making that judgment.

Claims like:

"At the same time those that are not connected with truth have no inner awareness of joy and as a result radiate a sour attitude that destroys the circle of joy, love and compassion . . . ."

are the musings of one who could cause great heartache. If he meets a person he believes exhibits these traits, he will automatically assume he knows why, as demonstrated by his simplistic platitude, when in fact he knows nothing about this person's anguish.

But in his ignorance of the myriad of causes of pain, his judgements could exacerbate the real thing, and he's then become the enemy to what he really, although obliviously, wants to do, which is to help.

I hope that makes sense.

Elphaba

There are certainly religious people with sour demeanors, who live in failure, despite the power of the God that resides within them. Likewise, there are atheiests, agnostics, and the non-religious who are upbeat, happy, positive, confident people. Yet, I dare say that the believer in God is more joyful with God than without, and that happy athiest could have an even happier, deeper life with God.

There are certainly religious people with sour demeanors, who live in failure, despite the power of the God that resides within them. Likewise, there are atheiests, agnostics, and the non-religious who are upbeat, happy, positive, confident people. Yet, I dare say that the believer in God is more joyful with God than without, and that happy athiest could have an even happier, deeper life with God.

Is the third time the charm, PC?

Elphaba

[Annabelli]

One of the interesting expressions is the idea concerning the folly of youth and the wisdom of age. Although I was impressed with the lovely young lady I met and married; the power of love and the strength of our marriage came years later as we grew older together knitting our differences into a wonderful and beautiful tapestry. I realize that many take stock in the love at first sight concept – which I also hold but the love generated at first sight is not the power from which everlasting relationships are made. It is only a beginning.

And so I believe it is with truth. Many times we become convinced of a thing early on – but that is not really the power of truth. For me, the beginning of truth is like planting a seed that even when it first begins to grow is quite tender and requires great care and attention. The power of truth is what comes with time and seasons. It does not narrow our understanding of things but expands and add to all things we encounter. It does not create contradictions but is a greatly prized treasure that is always growing. As time passes it become less of a mystery and more of something that should be plain and simple to everyone. Doubts of it fade over time and the joy of it expands.

I realized that many abandon truth during the early seemingly inconveniences; their youthful joy is replaced with sour disposition and cranky demeanor. Is it ignorance that is bliss and knowledge that turns people into enemies? I do not think so. I am convinced that truth and knowledge is what makes a person kind when it is the only source around them. It is truth that turns a person to kindness when all others are convinced there is no reason or place for compassion. When other see only despair it is the truth and those that enjoy it that lives for joy even through the darkest nights of despair.

Does my belief in Christ limit me and what I can do – not really? My faith in Christ and living according to his gift of truth opens me to divine possibilities and the pursuits of G-d.

The Traveler

In reading your post, I realized that I really did not know what truth meant. Using the thesaurus, I have found some of the elements of truth: reality, certainty, genuineness, honesty, integrity, dedication, loyalty, devotion, sincerity.

Your post really hits home in my memories of the good and then the trying times in life. I don't have a crystal ball, but it seems that Truth is the staff of life.

[prisonchaplain]

Is the third time the charm, PC?

Elphaba

A good sermon used to be "three points and a poem." These days we've tossed out the poetry and resorted to repeating one point three times.

[tiancum]

"One indication of someone that is connected to truth – self aware of truth – is an attitude of joy which is part of the light of Christ."

I agree totally. Even if we are oft times struggling and not experiencing joy, when we have those epiphany moments where truth becomes part of us, it is joyous, and it can make us see things in a totally different way.

This has happened with all of us i hope. Athiests, Mormons, Eastern otrhodox, Jews.

Why does it have to be of Christ? Why can't it just be an attitude of joy?

Lol, because first of all, it is an LDS site. We tend to associate things with Him.

Also, he is the only historical figure that has claimed that he is the author of truth. ALL truth.

Do you think if I lined up 10 joyful people in front of you, you could tell me which ones were Christians and which ones weren't?

if someone were to just start lining up people in front of me, I would spray 'em with a hose. (i got a weird picture of me sitting on my lawn in a lounge chair, drinking a coke, and some random person offloading people off a little bus, and lining 'em up in front of me ...definitely hose worthy)

(on a serious note)

NOPE.

Truth is for anyone who looks for it. As per Christ's command to look... I can't help it if it makes non Christians "happy" to follow his councils. It all comes from Him, but it can be found in more than one place.

[Jason]

No problem, Jason. I did sound rather self-righteous, didn't I?

When a person discovers a soul-felt (empirical + spiritual) truth , and then denies that truth, I see no way for him to be happy.

One of the happiest/most joyful/ at peace women I have ever known was the mother of 7 children -- and a Baptist who loved the Lord; she lived her life according to the spiritual truths she knew. No, I don't think Latter Day Saints have an exclusive corner on joy, by any means. (And my example is not intended to exclude non-Christians.)

I couldn't agree more.

I was a self claimed Atheist for about a year after leaving the LDS (& AUB) church. I admit that overall I felt pretty comfortable, and in some ways even arrogant, about my new situation. I felt like a load had been taken off my back, but at the same time felt a little nag about my "no-god" situation.

Ultimately I came back to theism because I knew there was something out there. I decided I couldn't accept the "plan" as LDS see it, but that a total rejection of all things "godly" was simply out of the question.

I realize that I'm hard on board members from time to time about their teachings, not their theology mind you, but about the BoM history, BoA history, and the like. I should be more forgiving and lenient about those particular issues, as I don't care about the rest of your beliefs, but I still nag a bit.

My apologies to everyone.

[Traveler]

<div class='quotemain'>

Hi Traveler, Thanks for re-writing that paragraph (or writing a new one if that's what you did.) This one I can understand.

One of the characteristics of spirituality is an inner awareness. I am suggesting that there is a spiritual nature that when one becomes inwardly aware of truth the spiritual result is joy. This joy is express to others in a manner that all that share the spiritual awareness of joy in a circle of love and compassion.

I'm sure this is true. If one feels joyful, especially within a circle of love and compassion, there aren't many human emotions that we respond to better than that one. I disagree one has to have a "spiritual awareness." I know people who are atheists who feel just as joyful, especially in a circle of love and compassion. And boy can they cut up a rug!

At the same time those that are not connected with truth have no inner awareness of joy and as a result radiate a sour attitude that destroys the circle of joy, love and compassion.

I think this is true also, up to a point. Every single person is different, and many people struggle with this to different degrees. It is just too simplistic to say that all "those" experience this in the same amount. There are literally a million things that could happen to a person to do that, and you simply don't have the expertise to make that diagnosis.

For example, a very spiritual person could be suffering from a mental illiness that prevents him from feelings these things. If it's serious, none of the prayers in the world are going to help that person until he gets the correct medication(s). Once he does, and it's successful, all of the spiritual joy, love and compassion can return. But you, knowing nothing about the person, would have made an erroneous judgment that you had no right to make.

I noticed you do this in a lot of your posts, and I guess I wonder why? Why do you need to write posts that, while seemingly loving and compassionate, are actually oftentimes simplistic and judgmental about thousands of people you don't even know. I know you're heart is in the right place, but I don't think you realize that you do this.

Jesus warned about “false teachers” that would destroy the flock (awareness of joy in a circle of love and compassion). Shakespeare said it this way – “To thy own self be true and it shall follow as the night the day – thou cannot be false with any man.”

Exactly! To thine own self be true! Not to "Traveler" be true. And Traveler has no idea what that truth is, but often writes as if he does.

One indication of someone that is connected to truth – self aware of truth – is an attitude of joy which is part of the light of Christ.

Why does it have to be of Christ? Why can't it just be an attitude of joy? Do you think if I lined up 10 joyful people in front of you, you could tell me which ones were Christians and which ones weren't?

Elphaba

One of the great mistakes in truth is not realizing that which is physical and that which is spiritual. I will try to give an example. Are you aware of your own thoughts as opposed to those that originate from outside yourself? How does one determine those thoughts that in reality belong to "self" and those that are imposed?

I submit that you can investigate several and many brains, you can run scientific test after test and you will never be able to tell which thoughts were imposed on a person and what thoughts came from self awareness from looking inward. Many that devote themselves to the reality of only the five senses cannot look inward or have self awareness for it cannot come through the five senses.

Likewise those that attempt to use inward self awareness to define the physical reality of things are just as lost and unable to connect to anything of truth in that rheum.

The last point is that anyone can be happy in the middle of happiness - this is done because many are slaves to outside influences. Only a person that is inwardly connected to joy is free from the outside influences that are not joyful. Therefore they become "mirrors" of what ever is imposed upon them - they are not free or really joyful and what ever it is that they are - it is a fleeting moment that will change as does the weather and they are a product of the seasons in which they live.

It is not up to me to decide what a person’s thoughts are but trust me on this one – it is not all that hard to determine if their thoughts are joyful and if they are indeed the thoughts of their heart or thoughts from an ever changing environment.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

I realize that I'm hard on board members from time to time about their teachings, not their theology mind you, but about the BoM history, BoA history, and the like. I should be more forgiving and lenient about those particular issues, as I don't care about the rest of your beliefs, but I still nag a bit.

My apologies to everyone.

Just wondering about your statement about the Book of Abraham: Can you give me an example of any modern text that better demonstrates the ancient type and format used by the mathematicians of ancient Egypt - in the proper context of 2200 BC – the time in which Abraham was in Egypt? What modern text that relates to the historical aspects of Abraham are you comparing the BofA to – in order to conclude it is not historic?

The Traveler