Gender Identification - NO HATE!

[Mike]

4 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Would that be:

I'd prefer the first.

I make it a point not to date women with bionic stamina anymore.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Mike said:

I make it a point not to date women with bionic stamina anymore.

anymore?

[Mike]

1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

anymore?

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, MormonGator said:

 

Don't worry @Rob Osborn . With every generation (literally since the time of Christ) saying that one is bound to be right. It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. 

But honestly, we are getting worse as a society, not better.

[Mike]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

But honestly, we are getting worse as a society, not better.

I wish there were a way to know if this is true. I find myself wondering if I should believe in the common sense that everybody for thousands of years has been saying it; or should I believe the common sense that indicates there are more "bad" people than there were a thousand years ago and correspondingly more "good" people to go along with them than there were a thousand years ago? I suppose we could both provide plenty of "small-sampling" data and "personal-anecdotal" evidence for either opinion. We could believe the prophets of doom in our own church(es) or we could believe the prophets of optimism in our own church(es). 

[Guest MormonGator]

11 minutes ago, Mike said:

I wish there were a way to know if this is true. I find myself wondering if I should believe in the common sense that everybody for thousands of years has been saying it; or should I believe the common sense that indicates there are more "bad" people than there were a thousand years ago and correspondingly more "good" people to go along with them than there were a thousand years ago? I suppose we could both provide plenty of "small-sampling" data and "personal-anecdotal" evidence for either opinion. We could believe the prophets of doom in our own church(es) or we could believe the prophets of optimism in our own church(es). 

 

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Mike said:

I wish there were a way to know if this is true. I find myself wondering if I should believe in the common sense that everybody for thousands of years has been saying it; or should I believe the common sense that indicates there are more "bad" people than there were a thousand years ago and correspondingly more "good" people to go along with them than there were a thousand years ago? I suppose we could both provide plenty of "small-sampling" data and "personal-anecdotal" evidence for either opinion. We could believe the prophets of doom in our own church(es) or we could believe the prophets of optimism in our own church(es). 

Its true. Look around. Wickedness and moral decline is getting more prevailant.

[Guest MormonGator]

11 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Its true. Look around. Wickedness and moral decline is getting more prevailant.

In your opinion.
 

[Rob Osborn]

18 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

In your opinion.
 

Its facts brother, its facts. 

[Guest MormonGator]

6 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Its facts brother, its facts. 

Wrong. It's perspective.  

[Rob Osborn]

11 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Wrong. It's perspective.  

You take the two things- pornography and marriage. The facts show that pornography viewing is accelerating and marriage is down. Those are actual facts, no perspective about it.

[Guest MormonGator]

3 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

You take the two things- pornography and marriage. The facts show that pornography viewing is accelerating and marriage is down. Those are actual facts, no perspective about it.

There are many, many more data points that determine quality of life and morals then those two things. 

Edited February 21, 2017 by MormonGator

[Guest]

2 hours ago, MormonGator said:

 

That's where I got married.

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, MormonGator said:

There are many, many more data points that determine quality of life and morals then those two things. 

Well, if porongraphy viewing is up and marriage sustainability is down it can only mean that the moral quality of life is also down.

[lostinwater]

7 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

But honestly, we are getting worse as a society, not better.

i would agree that the health of society is decreasing - though i think the sickness is as much from polarization as it is from incorrectness.  There seems to be more thinly veiled hatred between all the factions now than ever - republican vs democrat, rich vs poor, christian vs muslim, mormon vs catholic, black vs white.  Each person's version of the most important truths has become an altar on which we're willing to crucify the self-esteem of our neighbors.

i don't know - i get it that people can't just pretend the truth doesn't matter.  But do we really think God's first question to us when we pass is going to be whether we believed the right things - or how many other people we convinced/manipulated into thinking as we did?  i think it's going to be, "How did you treat your neighbor?"  And,  "What kind of person did the truth that you DID believe make you?"  i mean, If the purpose of this life was to come down and learn truth, then why come at all?  We already knew it.  

i guess i like to think that i'm a Father O'Malley (Bells of St Mary's Movie) kind of person.  i'm fine with bending the rules if it helps someone.  No doubt though - even my behavior on this thread alone could be used as something that refutes the claim claim.

i'm very guilty in this regard, but why do we always focus on things that we're powerless to change?  i mean, if i focused less on changing the world and more on loving the world, i think God would be in a much better place to orchestrate the changing of the world.  

i am not really sure what i am trying to say here.  Just perhaps that the things each faction identifies as the cause of the problem may really be just a symptom, assuming it's a problem at all.  And that our campaigns to eliminate the symptom may be making the whole thing worse - like punching the guy with the flu in the fact to get his nose to stop running.  i guess i see people observe transgender feelings, pass a judgment of brokenness, mortal sin, or mental illness on the person and then proceed to attempt to eliminate the feelings at ANY cost without even bothering to try and understand them first.

Actually, yes, this is a rant  - and is in no way directed at anyone - except perhaps myself.

[yjacket]

5 hours ago, lostinwater said:

i don't know - i get it that people can't just pretend the truth doesn't matter.  But do we really think God's first question to us when we pass is going to be whether we believed the right things - or how many other people we convinced/manipulated into thinking as we did?  i think it's going to be, "How did you treat your neighbor?"  And,  "What kind of person did the truth that you DID believe make you?"  i mean, If the purpose of this life was to come down and learn truth, then why come at all?  We already knew it.

One of the greatest lies in modern society is that truth is subjective and that is completely incorrect.  And everyone will eventually learn the full truth, if not in this life than in the Spirit Prison. God's great commandments are first, Love God and second Love your neighbor.  In today's modern society we put them backwards, we say first it's love your neighbor, then well if you feel like it love God. We have a modern society that completely disregards simply keeping 1 day in 7 days reserved for God, yet we can pontificate how great it is that we have "progress" that allows LGBT to do whatever they want?

So absolutely no, God's first question to us isn't going to be "How did you treat your neighbor", it's going to be "How did you Love Me?" And there is the rub, "If ye love me, keep my commandments", many, many times goes directly against how the world says we need to "love our neighbor".

I don't care how humble one is or how how much service one provides . . .if one does not set God 1st above all else then it is all for naught.

And no the purpose of life wasn't to come to earth to learn truth . . .the purpose of life was to come to earth to gain a body, experience life and then to try us as to how well we would do in this life with a body . . . .it is a test.  A test to see how much we Love God. If we love God more than this earth, we will inherit the Celestial Kingdom, if we don't than we will inherit another portion of glory. God has told us how we are able to inherit the Celestial Glory, if we Love Him enough and abide by the precepts necessary to inherit the Celestial Kingdom, then by the grace of Jesus Christ who Atoned for us, we will inherit it. If not, we won't.

That is why how we think is so important. We know that how we think in this life, will carry over into the Spirit World; we might learn more truth over there, but in order to inherit the CK we must change ourselves to be more like Christ and Love God above all else.

That's why it's important for members of the Church, who have been given more light and knowledge to stay within the mainstream of the Church and to not go off into weird ideas about what may or may not be happening with our Spirits.  We have been given Truth, we know where to find it (in the scriptures and prophets), to accept the doctrines of the world and mingle them with scriptures go against what we have been taught . . .we have been taught to not accept, "the philosophies of men . . .mingled with scriptures". If we Love God then we will not accept this . . .a Love of God is a Love of His Truth, His Doctrine, His Word, His Commandments . . .and then doing them.

Edited February 21, 2017 by yjacket

[Guest]

6 hours ago, lostinwater said:

i don't know - i get it that people can't just pretend the truth doesn't matter.  But do we really think God's first question to us when we pass is going to be whether we believed the right things - or how many other people we convinced/manipulated into thinking as we did?  i think it's going to be, "How did you treat your neighbor?"  And,  "What kind of person did the truth that you DID believe make you?"  i mean, If the purpose of this life was to come down and learn truth, then why come at all?  We already knew it.  

Actually, we're told exactly what the Lord will ask us at the judgment seat.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/88.24?lang=eng#23

http://emp.byui.edu/ANDERSONR/itc/Book _of_Mormon/04_jacob/jacob01/jacob01_02pinterviewsavior_dom.htm

Read between the lines and you get:

1. What did you accept as the truth?
2. What did you do to spread the truth to others?
3. How did you treat your wife & children?
4. What have you done with all your talents?
5. How did you perform in your church callings?
6. Did you deal honestly with your fellow men in all your business?
7. Did you serve your community, nation, and world?

So, to answer your question: Yes.  We really do think He's going to ask us about what we believed and what we did with what we believed.  AND, yes, He'll ask us how we treated our neighbor.

Edited February 21, 2017 by Guest

[Rob Osborn]

6 hours ago, lostinwater said:

i would agree that the health of society is decreasing - though i think the sickness is as much from polarization as it is from incorrectness.  There seems to be more thinly veiled hatred between all the factions now than ever - republican vs democrat, rich vs poor, christian vs muslim, mormon vs catholic, black vs white.  Each person's version of the most important truths has become an altar on which we're willing to crucify the self-esteem of our neighbors.

i don't know - i get it that people can't just pretend the truth doesn't matter.  But do we really think God's first question to us when we pass is going to be whether we believed the right things - or how many other people we convinced/manipulated into thinking as we did?  i think it's going to be, "How did you treat your neighbor?"  And,  "What kind of person did the truth that you DID believe make you?"  i mean, If the purpose of this life was to come down and learn truth, then why come at all?  We already knew it.  

i guess i like to think that i'm a Father O'Malley (Bells of St Mary's Movie) kind of person.  i'm fine with bending the rules if it helps someone.  No doubt though - even my behavior on this thread alone could be used as something that refutes the claim claim.

i'm very guilty in this regard, but why do we always focus on things that we're powerless to change?  i mean, if i focused less on changing the world and more on loving the world, i think God would be in a much better place to orchestrate the changing of the world.  

i am not really sure what i am trying to say here.  Just perhaps that the things each faction identifies as the cause of the problem may really be just a symptom, assuming it's a problem at all.  And that our campaigns to eliminate the symptom may be making the whole thing worse - like punching the guy with the flu in the fact to get his nose to stop running.  i guess i see people observe transgender feelings, pass a judgment of brokenness, mortal sin, or mental illness on the person and then proceed to attempt to eliminate the feelings at ANY cost without even bothering to try and understand them first.

Actually, yes, this is a rant  - and is in no way directed at anyone - except perhaps myself.

I think I understand what you are saying. Thats why I say the problems we have in society are immorality and the breakdown of the family. We must stand firm in teaching the ills of not being morally pure. The family is our only strength. Being morally true is our only shield in the strength of the family. In truth, it is the family structure that is what enables our freedom as a people. The greatest harm in our society that threatens and destroys us is immoral practices such as viewing pornography. We must decry such, no tolerance for justification of it.

[yjacket]

40 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

The greatest harm in our society that threatens and destroys us is immoral practices such as viewing pornography. We must decry such, no tolerance for justification of it.

The older I get, the more that I truly believe this to be the case. Porn shows so many evil practices . . .homosexual behaviors are made normal, deviant behaviors are made normal, etc.

[lostinwater]

1 hour ago, yjacket said:

One of the greatest lies in modern society is that truth is subjective and that is completely incorrect.  And everyone will eventually learn the full truth, if not in this life than in the Spirit Prison. God's great commandments are first, Love God and second Love your neighbor.  In today's modern society we put them backwards, we say first it's love your neighbor, then well if you feel like it love God. We have a modern society that completely disregards simply keeping 1 day in 7 days reserved for God, yet we can pontificate how great it is that we have "progress" that allows LGBT to do whatever they want?

So absolutely no, God's first question to us isn't going to be "How did you treat your neighbor", it's going to be "How did you Love Me?" And there is the rub, "If ye love me, keep my commandments", many, many times goes directly against how the world says we need to "love our neighbor".

I don't care how humble one is or how how much service one provides . . .if one does not set God 1st above all else then it is all for naught.

And no the purpose of life wasn't to come to earth to learn truth . . .the purpose of life was to come to earth to gain a body, experience life and then to try us as to how well we would do in this life with a body . . . .it is a test.  A test to see how much we Love God. If we love God more than this earth, we will inherit the Celestial Kingdom, if we don't than we will inherit another portion of glory. God has told us how we are able to inherit the Celestial Glory, if we Love Him enough and abide by the precepts necessary to inherit the Celestial Kingdom, then by the grace of Jesus Christ who Atoned for us, we will inherit it. If not, we won't.

That is why how we think is so important. We know that how we think in this life, will carry over into the Spirit World; we might learn more truth over there, but in order to inherit the CK we must change ourselves to be more like Christ and Love God above all else.

That's why it's important for members of the Church, who have been given more light and knowledge to stay within the mainstream of the Church and to not go off into weird ideas about what may or may not be happening with our Spirits.  We have been given Truth, we know where to find it (in the scriptures and prophets), to accept the doctrines of the world and mingle them with scriptures go against what we have been taught . . .we have been taught to not accept, "the philosophies of men . . .mingled with scriptures". If we Love God then we will not accept this . . .a Love of God is a Love of His Truth, His Doctrine, His Word, His Commandments . . .and then doing them.

Well, i had typed up some lengthy response that dodged the statement.  But, the truth is, you are right that it is clearly more important to love God than to love one's neighbor.  My response didn't reflect that.  It stings my pride to say it - though i have to let things shape me if i am to improve.

That said, please don't mistake my comment earlier for some indication that i really do think my friend is wrong, and that i'm now admitting it, and indicating my real basis for its justification.  i remain fully convinced that my friend is correct and will one day be made right - and find nothing - as a follower of God - that indicates it is wrong.

What i was ranting about is how every faction builds stone walls around their beliefs - even incorrect ones - and then throw sticks and sneers at everyone else's walls - without considering that we might all have something to teach one another.

@yjacket - Thank-you.  However, please don't bring homosexuality into this.  That - along with destruction of traditional gender roles - has never been what this thread was about.

 

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, lostinwater said:

 However, please don't bring homosexuality into this.  That - along with destruction of traditional gender roles - has never been what this thread was about.

Are you sure?  Again, if we can't define what a "female spirit" is then how can you exclude sexuality (hetero or homo) from part of that definition?

[lostinwater]

7 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Are you sure?  Again, if we can't define what a "female spirit" is then how can you exclude sexuality (hetero or homo) from part of that definition?

Thank-you.  Yes, i am quite sure.  A female spirit is one that came into existence as female.  A female spirit believing the body she inhabits does not match her spirit's gender is not equivalent to homosexuality.  

Edited February 21, 2017 by lostinwater

[yjacket]

4 minutes ago, lostinwater said:

Thank-you.  Yes, i am quite sure.  A female spirit is one that God created female.  A female spirit believing the body she inhabits does not match her spirit's gender is not equivalent to homosexuality.  

I agree it is not the equivalent; I made a comment on what evil porn has brought in general (more of a side-topic than directly related).

No a boy who believes his "true" spirit is female is delusional and that thinking has no basis in scriptures, prophets, etc. except in the mind of the individual. If they want to believe that, fine go ahead and believe it, but don't try to convince or ask for acceptance from others (i.e. try to persuade others to that viewpoint).

[Rob Osborn]

Sadly, I have watched people go from sure they are one sex, to questioning, to confusion, to exploratory, to acceotance of change, to changing their secual identity. The transformation took several years and in that process they went from godly believing saints to acceptance of immorality and a disbelief and hatred of religion and God. My personal belief in their transformation was a lack of a moral compass. They werent born that way as they now claim, thats for sure!

[lostinwater]

9 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Sadly, I have watched people go from sure they are one sex, to questioning, to confusion, to exploratory, to acceotance of change, to changing their secual identity. The transformation took several years and in that process they went from godly believing saints to acceptance of immorality and a disbelief and hatred of religion and God. My personal belief in their transformation was a lack of a moral compass. They werent born that way as they now claim, thats for sure!

No doubt there are such cases.  What is frustrating to me is the assumption the two are unequivocally linked.  And i interpret your and yjacket's statements as attempting to make that association -  in the hopes of destroying the validity of my friend's feelings.  i hope you will tell me i am wrong in that interpretation?

Edited February 21, 2017 by lostinwater