Gender Identification - NO HATE!

[mirkwood]

On ‎1‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 7:47 PM, lostinwater said:

That said, I request that anyone thinking mean or judgmental thoughts not post them here.  I view no response at all as being preferable to ones that are  devoid of compassion and filled with judgments about the character of my friend.

I always find it interesting that someone will ask for opinions, KNOWING that there will be those who completely disagree, but feel the need to place a statement like this with that request for opinions.  Same with the title of the thread "NO HATE."  This very strongly suggests that any differing opinion is hate.  I always think if you don't want someone's opinion, don't ask.  If you ask for an opinion, you don't get to put qualifiers on the responses.

[Guest Godless]

40 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Acceptance is such a confusing word.

My family is Catholic.  I was raised Catholic and gained my testimony of the truthfulness of Christ as a Catholic.  I'm LDS now.  My family - as devout Catholics - do not accept the LDS gospel as truth.  Nope.  To them, it is wrong.  But no, that doesn't stop them from loving me.  But, they don't have to accept my beliefs for them to love me.  There is no question about that as I feel it even as I know they believe I'm wrong.

So what exactly do you mean by acceptance?  Because, this paragraph I quoted above is A PROBLEM.  You're friend is wrong.  Yes, he needs correction to get back to the path to Christ.  Yes, how we approach your friend with that knowledge may cause him to come closer to the path to Christ or cause him to get even farther from Christ.  Hence my post above NeuroTypical's that expresses LOVE as that which brings someone closer to Christ, not farther from him.

At a certain point, acceptance means accepting the fact that a person may never change. You can hope and pray that they will, but ultimately you have to respect their decisions, even if you don't agree with them. That was a big hurdle for my family when I fell away from the LDS Church. There was quite a bit of tension for a while as they passive-aggressively tried to bring me back to "the fold". I never stopped loving them and I know they never stopped loving me, but it was difficult for us to coexist while they were trying to undermine my worldview. Once that stopped, things improved drastically. I know they are still clinging to hope that I'll come back, but they know they can't force it. 

[Traveler]

13 minutes ago, Godless said:

At a certain point, acceptance means accepting the fact that a person may never change. You can hope and pray that they will, but ultimately you have to respect their decisions, even if you don't agree with them. That was a big hurdle for my family when I fell away from the LDS Church. There was quite a bit of tension for a while as they passive-aggressively tried to bring me back to "the fold". I never stopped loving them and I know they never stopped loving me, but it was difficult for us to coexist while they were trying to undermine my worldview. Once that stopped, things improved drastically. I know they are still clinging to hope that I'll come back, but they know they can't force it. 

 

Many time I have attempted to understand the process by which someone comes to a conclusion. In mathematics there are principles (grammar) that governs the language of mathematics.  I find it interesting that most mathematicians and physicists relish having their mathematic logic examined and any errors explained.  But in religion – or atheism – not only are most closed to having errors explained but are often uncomfortable or angry to even be critically investigated.

I was once told by someone smarter than me; that the only reason anyone experiences pressure over something - is because they are resisting it.

 

The Traveler

[lostinwater]

21 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

I always find it interesting that someone will ask for opinions, KNOWING that there will be those who completely disagree, but feel the need to place a statement like this with that request for opinions.  Same with the title of the thread "NO HATE."  This very strongly suggests that any differing opinion is hate.  I always think if you don't want someone's opinion, don't ask.  If you ask for an opinion, you don't get to put qualifiers on the responses.

Thank-you.  I do apologize - I could have been clearer in that statement.  I actually thank everyone on this thread - including those who have indicated my friend is incorrect - for having done so in what felt to me to be a kind way.  So thank-you for that.  I don't view disagreement as hate.  

Granted - I'm not particularly intelligent, but if my goal was to attempt to get positive reinforcement for my point of view, I'd most definitely not have posted this here.  I posted because for me it's helpful to talk to those with whom I disagree.  Others often expose flaws in my own logic - and help me become more balanced.  Helps me realize that those I disagree with are not monsters acting in willful ignorance - just good people that see the world differently than I do.  

[Guest MormonGator]

8 minutes ago, lostinwater said:

Granted - I'm not particularly intelligent

Don't say that about yourself, no one here would say that about you. I hope you stick around! 

[lostinwater]

1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

Don't say that about yourself, no one here would say that about you. I hope you stick around! 

Kind of you indeed.  But a little self denigrating humor with a basis in truth I've never found to be a bad thing.  I plan to!

[Guest Godless]

17 minutes ago, Traveler said:

 

Many time I have attempted to understand the process by which someone comes to a conclusion. In mathematics there are principles (grammar) that governs the language of mathematics.  I find it interesting that most mathematicians and physicists relish having their mathematic logic examined and any errors explained.  But in religion – or atheism – not only are most closed to having errors explained but are often uncomfortable or angry to even be critically investigated.

I was once told by someone smarter than me; that the only reason anyone experiences pressure over something - is because they are resisting it.

 

The Traveler

I see what you're getting at and I don't necessarily disagree. In my case, I never had my worldview directly challenged by my family. I think I would have preferred that, actually. It would have been an interesting conversation, to say the least, but it would have been nice to air things out and hash it out up front rather than deal with years of unsolicited literature and even less solicited visits from the local ward (which started immediately following a visit from my parents). In recent years, I've had more frank and open discussions with a couple of my siblings, but my parents are still reluctant to take that step. But they've at least taken me off the Ensign mailing list and stopped sending missionaries. So, you know, baby steps.

[dahlia]

I have known a number of transgender people since the 1970's, though I have not known them well. I've also watched a few shows about transgender issues, especially when a child is born intersex and the parents end up choosing a sex for the child.

I go two ways on this. If the person is an adult, has felt something was 'wrong' for years, and is finally making an informed choice about this issue, then it's his/her issue to deal with. I wish them well, cause what' they've chosen ain't gonna be no picnic.

However, I can't get behind teens or kids, especially little kids, who think they are transgender. The mind is not fully formed, even at 19. These children need psychotherapy (and often parents who aren't into some weird version of Munchhausen by Proxy and getting a kick out of having a transgender kid in the spotlight). Some may indeed be transgender, but I think many are not. Waiting until the mind has matured makes sense.

There appears to be a difference between people who suddenly think they are transgender and the many gay people I've known (and known well), who knew practically from childhood that they were gay. 

The fact is, there is a high rate of suicide with trandgenders, both before and after surgery. I think we are called upon to have love and be compassionate toward them, no matter what we may think personally.

 

[Traveler]

On ‎2‎/‎3‎/‎2017 at 1:44 PM, Godless said:

I see what you're getting at and I don't necessarily disagree. In my case, I never had my worldview directly challenged by my family. I think I would have preferred that, actually. It would have been an interesting conversation, to say the least, but it would have been nice to air things out and hash it out up front rather than deal with years of unsolicited literature and even less solicited visits from the local ward (which started immediately following a visit from my parents). In recent years, I've had more frank and open discussions with a couple of my siblings, but my parents are still reluctant to take that step. But they've at least taken me off the Ensign mailing list and stopped sending missionaries. So, you know, baby steps.

 

It would appear to me that your parents and siblings do not understand you point of view well enough to have a critical discussion with you about it.  It also appears to me that despite the Ensigns and missionaries – you do not understand the LDS point of view much better and are therefore unable to have a critical dialog of their belief.  Many years ago (in high school) I was on the debate team.  Which seem odd for many of my high school friends that a math and physics nerd could put together a logical debate.  Anyway, my debate partner and I won two state championships.  But most in debate circles would say we cheated because we scouted and listened carefully to our competition.  We were known for taking notes and quoting our opponents when we debated them.

One thing my debate coach stressed was that if we could not take the stand of our opponent and debate their point of view better than them – we should not think to oppose their plan or point of view.  Thus the point of debate is not over who is right or who has the better idea but rather who understands to other’s point of view best.  

It appears to me that few have any desire to understand what it is that others actually believe.  But then many really do not desire to understand that much of what and why they believe something to be so.  But I will admit that many times on this forum that I forget who has what particular point of view on certain topics.  So I am sorry if I mispresent your views but to be honest they do not seem to be so different than mine.

 

The Traveler

[Guest Godless]

3 minutes ago, Traveler said:

 

It would appear to me that your parents and siblings do not understand you point of view well enough to have a critical discussion with you about it.  It also appears to me that despite the Ensigns and missionaries – you do not understand the LDS point of view much better and are therefore unable to have a critical dialog of their belief.  Many years ago (in high school) I was on the debate team.  Which seem odd for many of my high school friends that a math and physics nerd could put together a logical debate.  Anyway, my debate partner and I won two state championships.  But most in debate circles would say we cheated because we scouted and listened carefully to our competition.  We were known for taking notes and quoting our opponents when we debated them.

One thing my debate coach stressed was that if we could not take the stand of our opponent and debate their point of view better than them – we should not think to oppose their plan or point of view.  Thus the point of debate is not over who is right or who has the better idea but rather who understands to other’s point of view best.  

It appears to me that few have any desire to understand what it is that others actually believe.  But then many really do not desire to understand that much of what and why they believe something to be so.  But I will admit that many times on this forum that I forget who has what particular point of view on certain topics.  So I am sorry if I mispresent your views but to be honest they do not seem to be so different than mine.

 

The Traveler

After 20 years of activity in the church, which included a calling as a ward missionary, I think I understand the LDS point of view well enough to effectively discuss it. You're right though, understanding of the other side of the argument is very important. That's part of the reason I continue to lurk here. I don't want to get too rusty in case a meaningful opportunity for discussion should arise amongst family members, or even childhood friends for that matter.

[yjacket]

On 2/2/2017 at 8:57 PM, lostinwater said:

I think we often (myself included) forget that most people need more to be accepted than to be corrected.  Not just that they want to be accepted more than corrected - though no doubt that is true as well.  They NEED to be accepted more than corrected.  

Do you not read the scriptures?  

This is so off-base and part of the morally bankrupt society we currently live in.  "There is no sin, just people that need to be loved". The scriptures are absolutely full of stories of prophets condemning and calling people to repentance and the general reaction is that people stone the prophets. 

In today's society we don't physically stone the prophets, but we certainly stone them in our minds.  We think of Christ as this individual who was only about peace, love, etc. Yet how quickly do we forget Christ overturning the money-changers, cursing the fig tree, "I bring not peace, but a sword", his words to the Pharisees and Saduccees where brutal and harsh; He roundly condemned them.  How much do we forget that Christ didn't come to save people in their sins, but from their sins?

If we as a people cannot stand up and forcefully say (in line with what the scriptures and prophets have taught) that these types of behaviors are (no ifs and or buts) sin and will lead to destruction, then how can we be disciples of Christ? If we cannot say, that yes God loves you as His Child, but is deeply saddened by your choices to choose behavior that is not pleasing to Him and sinful, why call ourselves disciples?

No, these individuals who commit these gross iniquities need to understand two things #1) as a parent, God's love is all-encompassing and #2) He may love you more than you can fathom, but these actions are deeply sinful and that the individual who commits these acts draws themselves away from God and if they continue in that path they will never be able to abide in His presence-they have damned themselves.

These individuals don't need acceptance from me.  Why would I matter? Why am I so important that they need my acceptance for their behavior? No, what they are really trying to say is that they want acceptance from God for their behaviors and by normalizing it so that I or the collective society accepts their behavior as normal they can rationalize that their behavior is acceptable to God.  

The sad thing is that no matter how many people in this world they convince to "accept" them-this behavior never has been and never will be acceptable to God; we know this b/c there is not a recorded instance in God's word given to us through prophets where it has been. And as such, b/c it has never been and never will be acceptable to God-they will (as a collective group) keep pushing and pushing and pushing to force God to accept their behaviors.  

Unfortunately, they refuse to learn that: Wickedness never was happiness.

 

Edited February 8, 2017 by yjacket

[Guest]

39 minutes ago, yjacket said:

forcefully

Why? 

You can be bold and gentle at once. You can teach and show love at the same time. I'll boldly say, that's the most effective way to reach someone.

"Force" is the root of forceful, and forcing was never part of the Plan. 

[NeuroTypical]

38 minutes ago, yjacket said:

If we as a people cannot stand up and forcefully say (in line with what the scriptures and prophets have taught) that these types of behaviors are (no ifs and or buts) sin and will lead to destruction, then how can we be disciples of Christ? If we cannot say, that yes God loves you as His Child, but is deeply saddened by your choices to choose behavior that is not pleasing to Him and sinful, why call ourselves disciples?

...these individuals who commit these gross iniquities...

...these actions are deeply sinful...

...the individual who commits these acts ...

...society accepts their behavior as normal they can rationalize that their behavior is acceptable to God...  

...this behavior never has been and never will be acceptable to God...

yjacket, could you maybe identify exactly what behavior you're talking about here?

From the OP:

Quote

I have a dear friend who recently told me he considers himself a female.  He dresses like a man, does not demand the use of girl bathrooms, does not march in parades, or demand that people accept him as a female.  In fact, he avoids telling others generally, as he knows it causes them pain.

He just believes that in his spirit, he is female.  He doesn't think that God made a mistake - just that for some reason, God decided he could learn something - or help someone - in this life, with a male body in a way that he wouldn't or couldn't in a female body.  So he is waiting for the next life where he believes God will at last place his spirit in the correct body.  To him, it is a temporary learning experience.

Which behavior are you finding objectionable here?  The living the life biology assigned him?  The keeping his issue to himself generally?  The choosing to accept God's hand in this struggle?  The dedication to live life correctly one day at a time until he can kneel at the feet of his master and find out the truth?

You're very passionately against behavior in your post - just wondering exactly what the heck you're talking about. 

[Guest MormonGator]

15 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

 

You're very passionately against behavior in your post =

Really? I got the impression that he was sort of agnostic about the issue. 

[Guest]

I'm going to repeat my honest and sincere question that only one person here has even addressed (at least to me).  What is meant by "spirits having gender"?  If you honestly believe that spirits have "parts", then, yes, I've heard that already and respectfully disagree.  Is there anything else that one might mean with that statement?

[yjacket]

48 minutes ago, Eowyn said:

Why? 

You can be bold and gentle at once. You can teach and show love at the same time. I'll boldly say, that's the most effective way to reach someone.

"Force" is the root of forceful, and forcing was never part of the Plan. 

Absolutely . . . I completely agree-when I said forceful-I had more in mind the bold methodology and I can see how it could be misinterpreted.  I do agree with your assessment.

[yjacket]

53 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

yjacket, could you maybe identify exactly what behavior you're talking about here?

From the OP:

Which behavior are you finding objectionable here?  The living the life biology assigned him?  The keeping his issue to himself generally?  The choosing to accept God's hand in this struggle?  The dedication to live life correctly one day at a time until he can kneel at the feet of his master and find out the truth?

You're very passionately against behavior in your post - just wondering exactly what the heck you're talking about. 

My bad . . .there is no basis in scripture or by prophets that have given any indication that there are female spirits assigned to male bodies.  In fact, everything we know points to the opposite, "i.e. the Family Proclamation".  Wrong thinking outside the revealed Word of God can certainly be sin, (even our thoughts will condemn us), but wrong behavior is worse than wrong thinking.  Kudos that he has decided to not engage in any type of behavior that God has identified as sin.  

Certainly, however, if the belief that female spirits are assigned to male bodies became widespread and ingrained as truth-this would eventually lead to wrong behavior.  As a man thinketh so is he. We need to be very, very cautious and diligent in understanding where Truth and Light comes from and in distinguishing between the philosophies of men and the Light of God.  Acceptance of the philosophies of men, will eventually lead to the behaviors of men which will lead us away from God.  This is so very true in today's society where good has been called evil and evil good.  Up is down and down is up.

Quite frankly, it really is head-spinning.  I'm not old-yet the speed of acceptance for immoral behavior that was agreed upon as a society as sin is unbelievable.  If you told me as a kid that when my son became of BSA age that not only would BSA allow homosexuals, but transgenders into it's organization I would have laughed at such a silly notion.

Edited February 8, 2017 by yjacket

[yjacket]

42 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Really? I got the impression that he was sort of agnostic about the issue. 

Always deadpanning it MG . .. I hate it! 

:-).

[NeuroTypical]

20 minutes ago, yjacket said:

My bad . . .there is no basis in scripture or by prophets that have given any indication that there are female spirits assigned to male bodies.  In fact, everything we know points to the opposite, "i.e. the Family Proclamation".  Wrong thinking outside the revealed Word of God can certainly be sin, (even our thoughts will condemn us), but wrong behavior is worse than wrong thinking.  Kudos that he has decided to not engage in any type of behavior that God has identified as sin.  

Certainly, however, if the belief that female spirits are assigned to male bodies became widespread and ingrained as truth-this would eventually lead to wrong behavior.  As a man thinketh so is he.

Fair enough.  I get what you're saying.  Perhaps you're only a couple of personal anecdotes away from a mellowing-out moment though.  One can only encounter so many normal 7 yr old boys from normal homes, trying to saw off their own penis one day because "it's wrong".  Or newborns born with both sets of genitalia, and the doctors and parents surgically pick whichever one looks more developed, only to see across the next ten years the child displaying normal development behavior of the other choice.   You can only get to know so many of these real (tiny, tiny, tiny minority) cases before you start realizing there may be some real mental issue, real brain thing, real morphological explanation that seems to be an exception to the Proclamation to the world.  

I totally get what you're saying.  Ten years ago in a new forum, people would get to know each other by asking A/S/L (age, sex, location).  Now online culture asks Age/Gender/Sexuality, and people think there are thousands of combinations.  And that crap is taught in schools.  You and I share a bit of passion about why this is leading our culture, our nation, away from God.

But yeah, transgender stuff is a real thing, in a tiny, tiny fraction of the population.

Here - I have a personal, firsthand account to share:  My wife and daughters do chickens.  4H and the whole thing.  Lots of flocks, different breeds, like over 80 chickens off on our property.  We got this rare kind of chicken, and were looking forward to hatching and preserving the breed.  As the chicks grew, we were happy to see one seemed to be a rooster, one a hen.  The hen was smaller, no comb.  The rooster has a comb, and he started crowing as roosters will do.  Then as they got a bit older, our jaws hit the floor as we watched an egg drop out of his butt.  Mr. Struts-his-stuff, Mr. crowing male - had just laid an egg.  Ain't no cultural indoctrination that can make something like that happen.  This occurred in nature, with something that wasn't a human.  Chickens can't sin - they operate in their spheres as willed by God - and this rooster just laid an egg.  Then another.  Then a bunch more.  

So we renamed him 'photoshop', and I tell people we have a transgender chicken.  

[anatess2]

10 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Mr. Struts-his-stuff, Mr. crowing male

My one and only rooster that I'm not supposed to have because I live in the city so I put a diaper on him and made him an indoor chicken so he walks around the house with the dog... died yesterday.  I don't know why.  I am very sad.

[Vort]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

I'm going to repeat my honest and sincere question that only one person here has even addressed (at least to me).  What is meant by "spirits having gender"?  If you honestly believe that spirits have "parts", then, yes, I've heard that already and respectfully disagree.  Is there anything else that one might mean with that statement?

Each spirit comes in exactly one of two flavors: male and female. Does this mean that spirits have external genitalia? I don't know. Maybe. But the point is, it means SOMETHING. And whatever it means, in the vast majority of cases our mortal sex corresponds to our spiritual sex.

There are those who seek to undermine this idea, to proclaim that the very idea of sex (their word is "gender") is an artificial construct, and that people can "be whatever they want to be" (how freedom-loving those words sound when unexamined) by simply stating, "I am a woman", and thus it is.

This is wrong. This is evil. It is not evil because it is distasteful; I am sure we can find any number of perfectly moral things that might strike us as distasteful in some instances. It is wrong because (1) it is false, and (2) it leads to misery, both for individuals and for societies. And more for the second reason than the first.

[anatess2]

32 minutes ago, Vort said:

This is wrong. This is evil. It is not evil because it is distasteful; I am sure we can find any number of perfectly moral things that might strike us as distasteful in some instances. It is wrong because (1) it is false, and (2) it leads to misery, both for individuals and for societies. And more for the second reason than the first.

There was a thread I saw in passing about somebody moving to South Korea...

One thing that Americans get culture shock about in South Korea is the seeming lack of free speech.  It's basically a culture of Stop Asking Questions and Just Do It.  Mainly because... whatever it is has made a success of the country and its people and there's no reason to change it.  It's basically a culture of respecting the wisdom of the elders.  Homosexuality and transgenderism is treated the same way.  The law does not prohibit it and it even allows for legally changing genders but the society does highly give LGBT activists a super hard time as they already established traditional families provide strength to society even as the society is a non-religious majority.

Edited February 8, 2017 by anatess2

[yjacket]

1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

Fair enough.  I get what you're saying.  Perhaps you're only a couple of personal anecdotes away from a mellowing-out moment though.  One can only encounter so many normal 7 yr old boys from normal homes, trying to saw off their own penis one day because "it's wrong".  

So we renamed him 'photoshop', and I tell people we have a transgender chicken.  

No, not at all; I have sympathy for individuals who's actual plumbing is messed up as in a physical deformity or defect. And for that, I treat it the same as any other form of physical defect-a horrible condition of this fallen, mortal world. And yes, those individuals who have a physical deformity need parents who love them deeply and teachers who love them and an understanding that God loves them. So I'm not talking about the very, very rare genetic cases of hermaphrodites or related cases.

I'm talking yes about the 7 yr old boy who tries to mutilate themselves-I can guarantee something is messed up in the home.  Normal homes, that teach normal respect for bodies, etc. aren't going to produce that type of behavior and if they do-they will quickly act to rectify that type of behavior rather than embrace it and say "well Johnny, I guess you're a girl trapped in a boy's body"-which is so completely assesine for a loving parent to say anything like that.

Yes, a 7 yr old who is physically trying to harm themselves (vs. one who is just playing around) has some serious issues and more likely than not those issues begin in the home.  If it's not in the home, then I would look to school and peers.

A 7 yr old boy who dresses up and acts like a girl-is just that play acting.  B/c a 7 year old dresses up and plays pirates doesn't mean he is a pirate, just that he is playing. And proper parenting involves teaching appropriate types of behavior and rather than the parent neglecting their parental responsibilities by encouraging said behavior, the loving parent will properly teach correct doctrine to a child who might be confused between play and reality and appropriate play.

Edited February 8, 2017 by yjacket

[yjacket]

12 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Mainly because... whatever it is has made a success of the country and its people and there's no reason to change it.  It's basically a culture of respecting the wisdom of the elders. 

This used to be the case in this country too; but then the 60s happened and now we are seeing the effects of what happens simply after just one generation that teaches the next generation that the elders are a bunch of old farts who don't know anything.

[NeuroTypical]

43 minutes ago, yjacket said:

I'm talking yes about the 7 yr old boy who tries to mutilate themselves-I can guarantee something is messed up in the home.  Normal homes, that teach normal respect for bodies, etc. aren't going to produce that type of behavior and if they do-they will quickly act to rectify that type of behavior rather than embrace it and say "well Johnny, I guess you're a girl trapped in a boy's body"-which is so completely assesine for a loving parent to say anything like that.

Yep, here we see one reason why the suicide rate for this tiny fraction of the population is through the roof.  Their bodies are screaming 'wrong', you turn to your parents for help and understanding, and get stuff like you're suggesting.  Efforts to rectify the behavior.  

 

Quote

Yes, a 7 yr old who is physically trying to harm themselves (vs. one who is just playing around) has some serious issues and more likely than not those issues begin in the home.  If it's not in the home, then I would look to school and peers. 

Yep, stuff like that always comes from somewhere.  Kids don't just make stuff like that up.  But you don't have the tools to righteously judge the parents.  There's a segment where it's not coming from the home, it's not coming from school, it's not coming from peers.  Only explanation left, is it's coming from inside the kid.

Again, this is why I say you're maybe a few personal anecdotes away from changing your tune.  You will refuse to see it, because it contradicts your beliefs.  And you'll continue to refuse to see it, until maybe you see it for real life, up close and personal, for yourself.  

You're not addressing where my shemale rooster is getting this egg laying behavior.  (Or, I guess more accurately, this butch hen who struts around, crows, and 'acts male').  Improper parenting?  Chicken friends or chicken peers?

Edited February 8, 2017 by NeuroTypical