Gender Identification - NO HATE!

[Rob Osborn]

How can one possibly argue?

[priesthoodpower]

4 hours ago, anatess2 said:

 

So, instead of looking for triggers, your time is better spent just taking LGBT for whatever it is and teaching people coping mechanisms - same as people with Autism learn coping mechanisms - to live a Christ-centered life and find their path to joy.

In the Samoan culture the oldest boy is raised to be the care taker of his younger siblings thus inheriting a female motherly role, guess what kind of adult he turns out to be? yup gay. Sounds like its similar to your phillipino example in that its a social thing that has become an accepted cultural practice, not genetics or inhereted.

Autism is a result of biological or chemical imbalances that these kids are born with or develop at a young age, they do not choose to be that way so I would call it a condition not a behavior. I believe science is narrowing down the biological root cause of autism. A close relative of mine who decides to participate in homosexual activity for the first time at the age of 62 is a chosen behavior.

[Anddenex]

1 hour ago, MormonGator said:

Divorce rates dropping. http://time.com/4575495/divorce-rate-nearly-40-year-low/
 

Birth rates for unmarried women are declining for the first time in decades,. http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/08/13/birth-rate-for-unmarried-women-declining-for-first-time-in-decades/

Child abuse is declining too. http://www.csmonitor.com/The-Culture/Family/2012/1130/Child-sex-abuse-cases-dramatically-decline-in-US-says-report

I get it, we all want to wail and scream that life is so bad and no one has morals anymore but the facts don't back it up. 

Statistics are fun; however, they never incorporate all statistics that would change numbers. Divorce rates don't include "co-habiting" couples that separate who have had children together. If more people are co-habiting and less couples marrying this will skew statistics in relation to eras where there was very little co-habiting and more marriage.

Birth rates typically do not include abortions of unmarried women. It isn't counted as a birth, now if they were to include these into birth statistics of unwed women that would bring about a different number, because I am more concerned with how many pregnancies occur with single women rather than births. The pregnancies is a better show of the "moral" decay rather than birth.

Child abuse statistics are only for those that are reported, not those that go unreported but are constantly occurring in homes. I would be more curious to see how they actually weighted everything according to the statistics they have.

We could have reports that say "rapes" are down...well at least those which have been reported.

I would like to see a report that shows how many "co-habitating" partners with children separated and then connect that to marriages/divorce statistics also. It is the same, excluding a piece of paper that says they are married because in these people's minds there is no difference between a married couple and a co-habiting couple.

Edited January 25, 2017 by Anddenex

[anatess2]

6 minutes ago, priesthoodpower said:

In the Samoan culture the oldest boy is raised to be the care taker of his younger siblings thus inheriting a female motherly role, guess what kind of adult he turns out to be? yup gay. Sounds like its similar to your phillipino example in that its a social thing that has become an accepted cultural practice, not genetics or inhereted.

Autism is a result of biological or chemical imbalances that these kids are born with or develop at a young age, they do not choose to be that way so I would call it a condition not a behavior. I believe science is narrowing down the biological root cause of autism. A close relative of mine who decides to participate in homosexual activity for the first time at the age of 62 is a chosen behavior.

That is a highly ignorant statement.  Every single Filipino household has the oldest child take care of his siblings.  It's a cultural construct.  Do you know how many oldest boy we have in the country since its existence?  Quadzillions.  Do we have quadzillion gay boys?  No.

And no, there is no indication that gayness is inherited.  But just because it is not inherited doesn't mean it is not something you are born with.

Yes, Autism is a bioogical or chemical imbalance that these kids are born with or develop at a young age.  Same as homosexual tendencies.

Yes, some males who decide to have sex with other males do it for experimentation, social rebellion, or whatever reason.  Not all of them do that.  A lot of them like Josh Weed do not want to be homosexual but they are.

Okay, let me explain to you what that means... so, you are a man, right?  You look at a girl and you get attracted to that girl, right?  So much so that you want to engage in sexual activity with her right?  Even when you're not supposed to because you're supposed to wait for marriage and all that?  You're just attracted to that girl but you don't do anything about it because your morality tells you to only have sex with your wife?  But you look at a boy and nothing... no attraction whatsoever.  As a matter of fact, you're disgusted by the idea and even if somebody pays you a hundred dollars there's no way you're going to have sex with that boy... well, guess what, gays have that exact same desire but it's flipped - they feel it for boys but nothing for girls.  They look at another boy and they are attracted even if they're not supposed to.  So, just like you and girls before marriage, that gay man has to control his desires and not act on it.  So, let me ask you - did you choose to be attracted to that girl?

[Guest MormonGator]

1 minute ago, Anddenex said:

Statistics are fun; however, they never incorporate all statistics that would change numbers. Divorce rates don't include "co-habiting" couples that separate who have had children together. If less more people are co-habiting and less couples marrying this will skew statistics in relation to eras where there was very little co-habiting and more marriage.

Birth rates typically do not include abortions of unmarried women. It isn't counted as a birth, now if they were to include these into birth statistics of unwed women that would bring about a different number, because I am more concerned with how many pregnancies occur with single women rather than births. The pregnancies is a better show of the "moral" decay rather than birth.

Child abuse statistics are only for those that are reported, not those that go unreported but are constantly occurring in homes. I would be more curious to see how they actually weighted everything according to the statistics they have.

We could have reports that say "rapes" are down...well at least those which have been reported.

I would like to see a report that shows how many "co-habitating" partners with children separated and then connect that to marriages/divorce statistics also. It is the same, excluding a piece of paper that says they are married because in these people's minds there is no difference between a married couple and a co-habiting couple.

I think it's important to keep an open mind. If you (not you as in @Anddenex, universal usage of the word you) are convinced that society is getting worse, more immoral and basically crumbling than you (again, universal usage) will be quick to see in statistics what you want to find. Of course I'm the same way. Because I do not think society is falling apart in it's morals, I'll see it differently. 

[Anddenex]

2 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I think it's important to keep an open mind. If you (not you as in @Anddenex, universal usage of the word you) are convinced that society is getting worse, more immoral and basically crumbling than you (again, universal usage) will be quick to see in statistics what you want to find. Of course I'm the same way. Because I do not think society is falling apart in it's morals, I'll see it differently. 

True, we need to keep an open mind. I am in the boat that these are the last days and that we will see an increase in righteousness and we will see an increase with immorality. There is a reason, as far as I can tell, why the Lord tells us it will be a great and terrible day before he comes again. We have the prophecy of Timothy regarding the state of the natural man during the last days.

I care about "what is" the actual truth of all these statistics, and unfortunately (although reports are showing what statistics they have) they don't provide all the details, which is why I am interested in how they weight "unknown" or "unreported" statistics that would change the current results... but I believe you understand what I am saying.

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Do you know how many oldest boy we have in the country since its existence?  Quadzillions. 

Wow!  You must have a high infant death rate to keep your population down so much.

[NeuroTypical]

There were multiple quadzillions - until the Fire Nation attacked. 

 

[anatess2]

4 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Wow!  You must have a high infant death rate to keep your population down so much.

The country existed way before Spain colonized it.  The Philippine clannish culture has been evident in the pre-colonial era.  Lots of oldest boys in well over 500 years

[Rob Osborn]

6 hours ago, MormonGator said:

I think it's important to keep an open mind. If you (not you as in @Anddenex, universal usage of the word you) are convinced that society is getting worse, more immoral and basically crumbling than you (again, universal usage) will be quick to see in statistics what you want to find. Of course I'm the same way. Because I do not think society is falling apart in it's morals, I'll see it differently. 

Im really curious as to why you dont see societies morals crumbling? Where do you live?

I live in Idaho and even here in mormon suburbia the divorve rate is a lot higher than in years past, pornography viewing is a big problem, child welfare issues eith neglect or abuse is rampant. Our ward doesnt even come close in fast offerings each month to cover all the myriads of problems that are the result of broken homes, single parents, etc. On top of all this I see more LGBT issues in my community now than ever before. I cant help but to think theres a relationship between the two.

[priesthoodpower]

7 hours ago, anatess2 said:

That is a highly ignorant statement.  Every single Filipino household has the oldest child take care of his siblings.  It's a cultural construct.  Do you know how many oldest boy we have in the country since its existence?  Quadzillions.  Do we have quadzillion 

The emphasis was on the 'female motherly role' like doing the laundry, dishes, cooking, changing daipers..everything a mother does, and on top of that those responsibilitys take precedence over any school or sports activities, so they are like a full time 2nd mother and thats why they develop feminine traits. is that what the eldest filipino boys do too?

[Jojo Bags]

19 hours ago, Fether said:

I can't think of a single doctrinal backing for this.

That's because you have not done any research into this.  The vast majority of members don't give a thought to possession by evil spirits, but it is very common.  Many church leaders have taught about possession by evil spirits and that it is a common event.  Check out your Bible dictionary under the heading, "Devil" and see what it says.  I have copies of 2 Sunday school lessons in which this concept was taught to the young women.  Also, download and read this treatise:  https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj-8vOBid_RAhXogVQKHR5HCvEQFggdMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nofearpreps.com%2Fuploads%2F1%2F4%2F4%2F2%2F14427784%2F2porn_sickness_evil_spirits_and_the_priesthood_-_copy.pdf&usg=AFQjCNH--FidhoT6lB0XThAyVB-ZWdYUSA

[Guest]

There's giving something thought, and there's obsessing.

[anatess2]

9 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

The emphasis was on the 'female motherly role' like doing the laundry, dishes, cooking, changing daipers..everything a mother does, and on top of that those responsibilitys take precedence over any school or sports activities, so they are like a full time 2nd mother and thats why they develop feminine traits. is that what the eldest filipino boys do too?

That is silly.  Most Filipino households have maids.  Only the poorest of the poor don't.   And maids come in all genders.  For example - the last time I visited my brother he had 4 females, 2 males, and a gay guy working in his house.  The females slept in one room, the males slept in the guardhouse, the gay guy slept with my parents - he was assigned 24/7 care of my dad who had lung cancer.  The older kids help in the discipline and care of the younger siblings - e.g. helping them with their schoolwork, making sure house rules are followed and consequences meted out, finding money to pay for their basic needs including college education... etc. etc.  They're basically parents-in-training.  The younger siblings are parents-in-training to their younger cousins, and so on and so forth.

But yes, male siblings also get to be assigned housework - what you call motherly duties.  No, doing motherly duties does not make you gay.  That's stupid.  I wouldn't marry my husband if he is not willing nor trained in doing "motherly duties" or if he believed doing motherly duties is gay.  Filipino women may be comfortable in the homemaker role but most of them are college graduates with career prospects. 

Edited January 26, 2017 by anatess2

[Guest]

It's important to be understanding and loving about peoples situations.

[anatess2]

21 hours ago, Zarahemla said:

It's important to be understanding and loving about peoples situations.

While guiding them towards the path to Christ.  Because, leaving them to wallow in darkness may "sound" loving, but it's not Christ-like love.

[NightSG]

On 1/26/2017 at 8:26 AM, anatess2 said:

Filipino women may be comfortable in the homemaker role but most of them are college graduates with career prospects. 

And knives.  Can't forget the knives.

Especially when you wake up at 3AM with one of them at your throat for a lecture about the toilet seat.

Yeah, that relationship didn't last much longer.

[Guest]

On 1/26/2017 at 1:29 PM, Zarahemla said:

It's important to be understanding and loving about peoples situations.

 

On 1/27/2017 at 11:29 AM, anatess2 said:

While guiding them towards the path to Christ.  Because, leaving them to wallow in darkness may "sound" loving, but it's not Christ-like love.

 

21 minutes ago, NightSG said:

And knives.  Can't forget the knives.

Especially when you wake up at 3AM with one of them at your throat for a lecture about the toilet seat.

What a string of posts. 

[NeuroTypical]

On 1/27/2017 at 10:29 AM, anatess2 said:

Quote

It's important to be understanding and loving about peoples situations.

While guiding them towards the path to Christ.  Because, leaving them to wallow in darkness may "sound" loving, but it's not Christ-like love.

I have a buddy I've known since middle school.  We live in different states, he's a Facebook buddy these days.  We get huge kicks out of arguing religion and politics - we pull no punches, get down and dirty into the mud of fighting, then we post cute baby animals and share fun things about our lives to preserve the friendship.

Anyway, my buddy married a lady who is now apparently a dude, although I don't think there's been any surgery.  He got ordained a minister so he could officiate at some of the first same-sex weddings in Utah.  He resigned from the church the morning the church talked about not-baptizing children of same-sex households.  He routinely criticizes the church, it's leaders, it's members, churches in general, etc.  

We're just oozing with understanding and love about each other's situations.  But the "guiding them towards the path to Christ" stuff?  It's more along the lines of being the only example of a Mormon non-jerk in this guy's life.  His mom spent her final decades in earth fretting about his soul.  His wards LDS neighbors basically honored his request to be inactive and ignore him or don't know he exists.  His active years were full of feeling unrighteously judged by people who didn't even know him, telling him he's going to hell for listening to the wrong music.  When someone burned his gay pride flag and damaged his truck, it's not like the elders quorum came by to show support and empathy.  Yeah, this is all his perspective, and it's probably overlooking some love.  But he gets love from me. 

Yeah, give me a way to kindly and in a christlike way, let him know that his transgender marriage = "wallowing in darkness".  All that will accomplish is him reducing the number of mormons he has decent feelings about by one.  And there aren't that many of them around.  

[anatess2]

53 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Yeah, give me a way to kindly and in a christlike way, let him know that his transgender marriage = "wallowing in darkness".  All that will accomplish is him reducing the number of mormons he has decent feelings about by one.  And there aren't that many of them around.  

But this is the thing, isn't it?  We can tell him "You're such a moron for believing same sex marriage is Godly!" or we can tell him, "Oh, officiating in same-sex marriage is so awesome! ", or we can tell him, "I believe in traditional marriage.  Check out this funny kitten video!".. or any other way people approach these things.  So, out of any one of those routes, which one do you think is the best way that can bring this person closer to Christ?  Do you see what I'm getting at?

Edited February 1, 2017 by anatess2

[NeuroTypical]

I don't call him a moron, I don't say officiating in ssm is awesome, and since Dood already knows I believe in traditional marriage, I don't tell him that either.  None of those things are things I say to him.  

I don't see what you're getting at.  Is the love I send his way Christlike or not?

[anatess2]

10 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

I don't call him a moron, I don't say officiating in ssm is awesome, and since Dood already knows I believe in traditional marriage, I don't tell him that either.  None of those things are things I say to him.  

I don't see what you're getting at.  Is the love I send his way Christlike or not?

Oh, I see now why you got confused.  I apologize.  I was not talking about you personally or your story specifically.  I was talking about all of us having friends/relatives/etc. who are facing these challenges and how we approach them.  Sometimes, it's difficult to know what exactly to do - especially if it's somebody close to us like our children, for example.  It becomes easier if we approach it in a manner that answers the question, "Will it get him closer to Christ, or farther from Christ?".  Because, sometimes, it sounds like it would get them closer to Christ because it's what the Church teaches, but the specific application of it to one's situation actually drives them farther instead.

[Rob Osborn]

I can say that I would never be of any attitude that affirms their position.

[lostinwater]

On 2/1/2017 at 8:51 AM, NeuroTypical said:

I have a buddy I've known since middle school.  We live in different states, he's a Facebook buddy these days.  We get huge kicks out of arguing religion and politics - we pull no punches, get down and dirty into the mud of fighting, then we post cute baby animals and share fun things about our lives to preserve the friendship.

Anyway, my buddy married a lady who is now apparently a dude, although I don't think there's been any surgery.  He got ordained a minister so he could officiate at some of the first same-sex weddings in Utah.  He resigned from the church the morning the church talked about not-baptizing children of same-sex households.  He routinely criticizes the church, it's leaders, it's members, churches in general, etc.  

We're just oozing with understanding and love about each other's situations.  But the "guiding them towards the path to Christ" stuff?  It's more along the lines of being the only example of a Mormon non-jerk in this guy's life.  His mom spent her final decades in earth fretting about his soul.  His wards LDS neighbors basically honored his request to be inactive and ignore him or don't know he exists.  His active years were full of feeling unrighteously judged by people who didn't even know him, telling him he's going to hell for listening to the wrong music.  When someone burned his gay pride flag and damaged his truck, it's not like the elders quorum came by to show support and empathy.  Yeah, this is all his perspective, and it's probably overlooking some love.  But he gets love from me. 

Yeah, give me a way to kindly and in a christlike way, let him know that his transgender marriage = "wallowing in darkness".  All that will accomplish is him reducing the number of mormons he has decent feelings about by one.  And there aren't that many of them around.  

NeuroTypical - thank-you.  I agree with this.  I think we often (myself included) forget that most people need more to be accepted than to be corrected.  Not just that they want to be accepted more than corrected - though no doubt that is true as well.  They NEED to be accepted more than corrected.  For example, you can lecture to someone who has just attempted suicide about selfishness, accuse them of attempted murder - all of which are arguably true - and call them to repentence - but I'd suggest that you'd most likely be doing more harm than good.

Now, please don't interpret that as my believing that my friend needs correction.  I used to.  I don't any more.  But think the rule of thumb above is almost always applicable regardless.

I do find it frustrating that most of the people who most strongly indicate my friend is wrong and needs correction have never really, really, really gotten to know a person who expresses these feelings.  But I guess we all have to base our beliefs off of what we've experienced.  I'm sure I have a bunch of beliefs that are based on mistruths as well.  

I'd just caution and say that if your feelings about these people are based on bathroom policies, sex change operations, and rainbow flags in parades, that you are not seeing the whole story.

[anatess2]

16 hours ago, lostinwater said:

I do find it frustrating that most of the people who most strongly indicate my friend is wrong and needs correction have never really, really, really gotten to know a person who expresses these feelings.  But I guess we all have to base our beliefs off of what we've experienced.  I'm sure I have a bunch of beliefs that are based on mistruths as well. 

Acceptance is such a confusing word.

My family is Catholic.  I was raised Catholic and gained my testimony of the truthfulness of Christ as a Catholic.  I'm LDS now.  My family - as devout Catholics - do not accept the LDS gospel as truth.  Nope.  To them, it is wrong.  But no, that doesn't stop them from loving me.  But, they don't have to accept my beliefs for them to love me.  There is no question about that as I feel it even as I know they believe I'm wrong.

So what exactly do you mean by acceptance?  Because, this paragraph I quoted above is A PROBLEM.  You're friend is wrong.  Yes, he needs correction to get back to the path to Christ.  Yes, how we approach your friend with that knowledge may cause him to come closer to the path to Christ or cause him to get even farther from Christ.  Hence my post above NeuroTypical's that expresses LOVE as that which brings someone closer to Christ, not farther from him.

Edited February 3, 2017 by anatess2