Vort to Earth: Do not take AP Classes

[anatess2]

I didn't want to hijack that thread...

I'm very interested in @Jane_Doe and @Vort's perspectives on this one.

I'm ambivalent to AP classes.  My son is in his sophomore year and he is in AP for 4 classes - Math, Science, English, and History.  Basically all the AP classes offered this year.  He didn't choose to be in it, neither did I.  The school placed him in it because of his State Assessment scores.  My kid likes the AP classes and he's acing all of them so it's not a problem.  I am actually liking the pace of the AP classes for my kid.  I think it is the perfect pace for him.  I have a kid that has the attention span of a gnat and so if the class goes slower than his patience level he becomes a menace in the classroom.  This has been a problem for us all through Elementary School.  The Principal knows me so well as I've had to sit in her office so many times trying to keep my kid from getting expelled.

Going to an Arts Middle School made it 100x better - he can expend all his restlessness on his arts classes, because for some reason, he can sit on that piano bench for hours on end while he has a hard time lasting through one class period.

He applied to the IB program for High School as well as auditioning for the Arts High School.  In the end, he decided to go to the Arts School because he set his sights on a Music Production track for College.

My younger son is in a Science and Technology Middle School.  He got accepted to the IB program in High School and he is beyond excited to get there.

An IB program is even more labor intensive than a bunch of AP classes.  It's a totally different beast all together.  So, why my kid wants to be in the IB program?  His older brother got an invitation from the school to attend this IB seminar so he decided to go with his brother.  They went through what IB is all about, the work they do, etc. etc.  My son came home from the seminar thinking IB or Bust, so he spent his Middle School aiming for an invitation to IB at this specific school that has an ROTC program (not the same school that he attended the seminar on).  He got the grades that qualified him for an invite, so he attended the seminar again, sent in an application and got the acceptance letter last week.  It was like Christmas.

One good thing about the AP classes is that it counts for college credit in the Community College.  So, if you're hard up on money, AP can save you some college $.  An IB Diploma gets you automatic Bright Futures Scholarship money in Florida - regardless of grade.  You just have to pass IB and you get the Scholarship.  The Scholarship gives you 4 full-ride years of college at the Community College.  You can use the Scholarship for any other Florida College - including the Gator Swamp UF - but it only pays up to the amount of a Community College tuition so you have to come up with the rest of the money yourself.

Anyway... as an addendum... all these choices for my kids are all in Public School.  Thanks in part to the work of Betsy DeVos.  So yes, I am just fine with her as Sec of Ed.  Trump held a Parent-Teacher Conference with DeVos and 9 other representatives 2 days ago.  I have no idea who these people are - I don't even know how they got picked.  But my ears perked up when I found out who these 9 people are.  1 is a public school educator specializing in at-risk children.  1 is a parent of 2 home schooled children.  Another one is a former private school teacher who is currently homeschooling 4 of her 6 kids.  1 have kids in both private and public schools.  1 is a charter school parent.  1 is a special ed public school teacher.  1 is a special ed school principal. 1 is a spanish language teacher at a private school.  1 is a former teacher for both private and public schools.  Quite a collection.

 

Edited February 16, 2017 by anatess2

[Guest]

In Texas, non-honors classes at the junior high level and above are really, really low quality and serve as a collection for the school's thugs and druggies.  It is kind of acknowledged in Texas that non-honors classes are not really intended for people who plan on going to some form of college.  Then again, that is Texas, and I understand our public education is pretty awful compared to other states.

I learned a lot in some of my AP classes.  However, taking AP Calculus my senior year was a mistake.  After making As in every math class before, I could not figure out AP Calculus at all, and it consumed much of my senior year.  I wound up passing on the curve, which guaranteed everyone a C (as I basically got nothing right all year long).  It was a black mark on my record, and, along with a similar experience in AP Physics, permanently swayed me away from an engineering career (especially since I took these classes dual credit, and could not repeat in college to learn basic Physics and Calculus).

I sometimes wonder, had I waited to take calculus and physics in college, if I would have wound up in engineering instead of law (and therefore would maybe have a more successful career).  Did AP classes, in a sense, ruin my life?  Or, did they give me a dose of introspection, letting me know early on that I am not meant for engineering?  Am I engaging in Millenial-style whining, even though I was born in the last year of Generation X (1982)?  Maybe, maybe.

Edited February 16, 2017 by DoctorLemon

[Guest]

I had a really great experience with my AP classes.  I still talk about my English teacher today.  My wife is getting really annoyed every time I mention his name.  I took AP English, Chemistry, Calculus, and History.  I had already taken physics & biology by the time the AP program came around.

My chemistry class was a good high school class.  But it was nowhere near as thorough as my college chem.  Calculus is calculus.  High school or college didn't make much of a difference.  I can't really compare my AP US History class with my college American Heritage class.  But my English class shined above any of my college English classes.  That's why eye kan rite so good taday.

As far as entrance to college, it did one thing.  It raised my GPA.  That's all.  The fact is that the classes I took were the same classes whether it had the "AP" before it or not.  The teachers even told us this.  So, my level of preparation for the ACT or SAT would have been the same.

[Jane_Doe]

(Background for people here)   An Advance Placement (AP) class is a high school class you take with the goal of getting college credit for it.  These classes are usually faster paced, more in depth, and more intense than the "normal" alternative.  At the end of the year you take a nationally standardized test, and if you get a high enough score you get college credit for it.  People in the "normal" class may also take the test, but the odds of them getting high enough score is slim (the AP class spends all year prepping for the test).  Colleges tell you in advance which scores get credit for which classes.  

I am a HUGE fan of AP classes: they save money, time, scholarships/admissions/jobs, and it makes for more serious students.  

Money: Each AP class is worth a ~4 hour college course.  If the student will be attending a private college that's ~$11,000 in savings, ~$3,000 for in-state public, and ~$8,000 for out-of-state public. 

Time: that 4 credit college course you don't have to take would have eaten ~300 hours of your life.  By not having to take it, you can skip straight to the other courses and move on with life.  This encourages a 4 year graduation track (frankly: most students graduate in 5 nowadays).  Frankly... that 101 course you'd be skipping has a 50% failure rate.  So there's a good chance you'll skipping taking it twice (even more time and money!).  

Scholarships/jobs: Scholarships love AP classes- they show that you are a dedicated student who's willing to put in the work.  Saying your AP scores gives you a great advantage getting into a college and getting scholarships.  Additionally, it can help you get a job on campus where you actually use your skills and learn things.  For example, I hire undergrads as technicians in my lab to do research which is published in peer review journals.  Over half of my technicians go on to graduate school with full ride scholarships.  Those that don't  turn down the opportunity because they know that's not what they want in their life.   When I'm hiring, an underclassman who has AP credit moves to the top of the pile.  

More serious students: taking an AP means you need to know the subject matter backwards and forwards.  Quite possibly better than those who took the college course, because your "grade" is solely dependent on a 3 hour test.  That means as a high school kid you need to sit down and focus.  Learning that discipline in and of itself is a huge benefit and greatly prepares you for college work.  

 

 

Disclaimers and times I would say you should NOT take an AP class include: if you're not particularly interested in academics (such as @anatess2's art son) and if it's a junk class (there are some out there).  If you will not receive an profitable college credit for the class, then the drive is less (though you might still like the more in depth class).   

I could also talk about IB programs, but since's @Vort's original post was on AP, I'll leave it at that.  

[Guest Godless]

2 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

(Background for people here)   An Advance Placement (AP) class is a high school class you take with the goal of getting college credit for it.  These classes are usually faster paced, more in depth, and more intense than the "normal" alternative.  At the end of the year you take a nationally standardized test, and if you get a high enough score you get college credit for it.  People in the "normal" class may also take the test, but the odds of them getting high enough score is slim (the AP class spends all year prepping for the test).  Colleges tell you in advance which scores get credit for which classes.  

I am a HUGE fan of AP classes: they save money, time, scholarships/admissions/jobs, and it makes for more serious students.  

Money: Each AP class is worth a ~4 hour college course.  If the student will be attending a private college that's ~$11,000 in savings, ~$3,000 for in-state public, and ~$8,000 for out-of-state public. 

Time: that 4 credit college course you don't have to take would have eaten ~300 hours of your life.  By not having to take it, you can skip straight to the other courses and move on with life.  This encourages a 4 year graduation track (frankly: most students graduate in 5 nowadays).  Frankly... that 101 course you'd be skipping has a 50% failure rate.  So there's a good chance you'll skipping taking it twice (even more time and money!).  

Scholarships/jobs: Scholarships love AP classes- they show that you are a dedicated student who's willing to put in the work.  Saying your AP scores gives you a great advantage getting into a college and getting scholarships.  Additionally, it can help you get a job on campus where you actually use your skills and learn things.  For example, I hire undergrads as technicians in my lab to do research which is published in peer review journals.  Over half of my technicians go on to graduate school with full ride scholarships.  Those that don't  turn down the opportunity because they know that's not what they want in their life.   When I'm hiring, an underclassman who has AP credit moves to the top of the pile.  

More serious students: taking an AP means you need to know the subject matter backwards and forwards.  Quite possibly better than those who took the college course, because your "grade" is solely dependent on a 3 hour test.  That means as a high school kid you need to sit down and focus.  Learning that discipline in and of itself is a huge benefit and greatly prepares you for college work.  

 

 

Disclaimers and times I would say you should NOT take an AP class include: if you're not particularly interested in academics (such as @anatess2's art son) and if it's a junk class (there are some out there).  If you will not receive an profitable college credit for the class, then the drive is less (though you might still like the more in depth class).   

I could also talk about IB programs, but since's @Vort's original post was on AP, I'll leave it at that.  

Lol, I was actually wondering what the heck IB is. I know about AP. I took an AP European History class in high school.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Godless said:

Lol, I was actually wondering what the heck IB is. I know about AP. I took an AP European History class in high school.

It's just another set of letter people put on class labels to make schools think they're doing something good.

[Guest MormonGator]

5 minutes ago, Godless said:

 I know about AP. I took an AP European History class in high school.

Didn't you find out (at least a little bit) that once you entered college it doesn't matter how good or bad you did in high school? Some of us barely graduated high school (82 out of 90) but graduated college in the top third of their class. I don't think AP classes matter in the long run. 

[Jane_Doe]

15 minutes ago, Godless said:

Lol, I was actually wondering what the heck IB is. I know about AP. I took an AP European History class in high school.

International Bacholorate (IB) is... think of the gruel of a single AP class, and then multiply it out to all of your classes.

[Jane_Doe]

13 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Didn't you find out (at least a little bit) that once you entered college it doesn't matter how good or bad you did in high school? Some of us barely graduated high school (82 out of 90) but graduated college in the top third of their class. I don't think AP classes matter in the long run. 

There are for sure students that rocked HS and then flunked college, and vise versa.  AP classes are jump to help you do better and university, and (in my observation) generally do. There are plenty of exceptions of course.

Edited February 16, 2017 by Jane_Doe

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

International Bacholorate (IB) is... think of the gruel of a single AP class, and then multiply it out to all of your classes.

"Baccalaureate".

And there really is no difference.  We had "enriched" or "advance" my freshman year.  AP my sophomore year.  IB my junior and senior year.  There was no change in the curriculum.

Edited February 16, 2017 by Guest

[Guest Godless]

21 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Didn't you find out (at least a little bit) that once you entered college it doesn't matter how good or bad you did in high school? Some of us barely graduated high school (82 out of 90) but graduated college in the top third of their class. I don't think AP classes matter in the long run. 

It depends on how you use it. In retrospect, I probably should have taken AP English as well, since it was by far my strongest subject. The problem is that I was a horribly lazy student. I struggled to get through AP History with a C (though got a 4/5 on the AP exam), and I'm sure the same would've been true in English. I did pretty well on the SAT (100 points better than my honor roll sister, and I'll never let her forget it ) and probably would have done well in college. But ultimately my college career ended up being two classes at a community college in Maryland and a semester of culinary school in Texas. I did very well in those classes, but didn't see a career path anywhere in it.

 

9 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

And there really is no difference.  We had "enriched" or "advance" my freshman year.  AP my sophomore year.  IB my junior and senior year.  There was no change in the curriculum.

My high school also had "advanced" classes for grades 9-12. It was for students who weren't quite a good fit for AP, but deserved better than the majority of the student body, which was:

2 hours ago, DoctorLemon said:

 really, really low quality and serve as a collection for the school's thugs and druggies.

With the exception of the one AP class, all of my classes were "advanced". 

[Guest MormonGator]

5 minutes ago, Godless said:

It depends on how you use it.

Absolutely. For many, many reasons high school was atrocious (I almost got expelled twice!). I was depressed, angry-just overall hated it. College was like Dorothy seeing everything in color for the first time. Absolutely loved it. Shockingly, I did great in college. That's partially why I think happiness is so important in life. Happy people generally do better performance wise than unhappy ones. Do AP courses matter? Maybe. Probably. But other things matter much more. 

Edited February 16, 2017 by MormonGator

[anatess2]

30 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

International Bacholorate (IB) is... think of the gruel of a single AP class, and then multiply it out to all of your classes.

The difference between AP and IB is... your AP can't get you much towards entrance to a college outside of the USA - like in Asia.  An IB Diploma (which you get separately from your regular high school diploma) is recognized in a lot of colleges worldwide because the IB standard is uniform all over the planet.  So, for example, if my kid decides to attend the University of the Philippines he won't need to go through accreditation - he can submit his IB Diploma and IB transcript for consideration which is directly equivalent to any Filipino with an IB Diploma from a Philippine high school.  UP also offers scholarships based on IB test scores, so my son could potentially get a scholarship for UP even if he's a non-Filipino-resident.

But that's not why my kid wanted the IB program.  He just thinks all the IB class selections are way cool.  My kids are wierd.

Edited February 16, 2017 by anatess2

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Godless said:

 

With the exception of the one AP class, all of my classes were "advanced". 

Yeah, I'm talking about the non-advanced classes, the "normal" ones.  I swear, from what I observed, some of those guys were still learning basic reading in 10th and 11th grade... if they were even paying attention...

Then again, my high school may have been abnormally bad as well.

All of this talk makes me think about my high school years.  I was not just unpopular in the sense that most teenagers are unpopular; I was abnormally unpopular.  Part of that was being Mormon in Texas - people certainly didn't understand me or know what to make of me.  Part of that is my natural difficulties with socializing, which has slowly gotten better over the years.  Whatever it was, however, it hurt, and I still sometimes get a little upset when thinking about those years (and I am now almost 35).  I am just glad that I am apparently much better and more comfortable with being an adult than I was at being a teenager!

Edited February 16, 2017 by DoctorLemon

[anatess2]

45 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

"Baccalaureate".

And there really is no difference.  We had "enriched" or "advance" my freshman year.  AP my sophomore year.  IB my junior and senior year.  There was no change in the curriculum.

The IB program is a 2-year program and starts in junior year (11th grade in the US, 9th grade in the Phils).  It is an international curriculum that is different from US High School standards.  Before that, you simply have IB-prep classes which can start as early as Elementary School.  IB is a whole 'nother animal.  It's a different curriculum so much so that you get a separate IB Diploma from your high school diploma.  You also take the IB tests to earn the IB Diploma which are a set of different tests from State Assessments or National AP tests.  There are several common classes between US High School curriculum and the IB Program - usually the core classes like Math, Science, and Language but to pass the IB test, a standard High School class may not be enough, therefore, IB program students are placed in the AP class if the High School offers it or have a separate IB-level offering for that same class.  In the school my kid got accepted to, their AP classes have to meet IB standards if it is a class in the IB curriculum so both AP and IB students take those classes together.  You can be in an IB program and fail to earn the IB Diploma but still qualify to earn the High School Diploma.

 

Edited February 16, 2017 by anatess2

[Guest Godless]

20 minutes ago, DoctorLemon said:

Yeah, I'm talking about the non-advanced classes, the "normal" ones.  I swear, from what I observed, some of those guys were still learning basic reading in 10th and 11th grade... if they were even paying attention...

Then again, my high school may have been abnormally bad as well.

I hear ya. I think we went to similar high schools. I still keep in touch with a couple of my old teachers via FB, and apparently it's gotten a little better.

Quote

All of this talk makes me think about my high school years.  I was not just unpopular in the sense that most teenagers are unpopular; I was abnormally unpopular.  Part of that was being Mormon in Texas - people certainly didn't understand me or know what to make of me.  Part of that is my natural difficulties with socializing, which has slowly gotten better over the years.  Whatever it was, however, it hurt, and I still sometimes get a little upset when thinking about those years (and I am now almost 35).  I am just glad that I am apparently much better and more comfortable with being an adult than I was at being a teenager!

Ugh, I know the feeling. My mom thought that middle school was a "den of wolves", so she home-schooled me through those years and then plopped me into the true den of wolves that was Meade High. My social skills weren't nearly developed enough to make myself an easy fit in that place. I ultimately managed somehow, but it was rough.

Edited February 16, 2017 by Godless

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

The IB program is a 2-year program and starts in junior year (11th grade in the US, 9th grade in the Phils).  It is an international curriculum that is different from US High School standards.  Before that, you simply have IB-prep classes which can start as early as Elementary School.  IB is a whole 'nother animal.  It's a different curriculum so much so that you get a separate IB Diploma from your high school diploma.  You also take the IB tests to earn the IB Diploma which are a set of different tests from State Assessments or National AP tests.  There are several common classes between US High School curriculum and the IB Program - usually the core classes like Math, Science, and Language but to pass the IB test, a standard High School class may not be enough, therefore, IB program students are placed in the AP class if the High School offers it or have a separate IB-level offering for that same class.  In the school my kid got accepted to, their AP classes have to meet IB standards if it is a class in the IB curriculum so both AP and IB students take those classes together.  You can be in an IB program and fail to earn the IB Diploma but still qualify to earn the High School Diploma.

 

Like I said.  There was no difference in the curriculum at my school.

[anatess2]

12 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Like I said.  There was no difference in the curriculum at my school.

I may have misunderstood your use of the word curriculum.  Do you use curriculum as the set of classes the student has to take or do you use curriculum as the requirements within a class?

Edited February 16, 2017 by anatess2

[Guest]

Just now, anatess2 said:

I may have misunderstood your use of the word curriculum.  Do you use curriculum as the set of classes offered or do you use curriculum as the requirements within a class?

No, you did not misunderstand my definition.  You misunderstood my meaning.

I went to an exceptional school with highly capable instructors.  They themselves were old school.  They were taught the old ways in AMERICAN education.  They were given enough freedom to teach that same level to the students of my generation.  As such, they had an amazing syllabus/curriculum.

When OC schools were encouraged to qualify for AP and IB, my district looked over their curriculum and some needed to make minor changes.  My school made only one change I'm aware of and they qualified.  The one change was the addition of "Theory of Knowledge" to the list of electives.  Everyone in the class was also in that same teacher's advanced English class.  We all thought it was a continuation of his expository essay unit in our main English class.

I may not know how things are in other districts or other states or even how things have changed in the many years since I was in high school (we didn't have "IB Diplomas" for instance).  But the classes I took were the same curriculum that had been taught there for years.  They just got to add another label to it.

I will mention one more thing.  My parents were poor enough that they didn't want to spend the money on these "AP/IB tests".  They didn't know what advantage I'd have.  So, even though I could have qualified and probably passed, I gained no college benefit from them other than I was ahead of my classmates in those topics.  But I was always ahead of my classmates anyway, so...

 

[anatess2]

13 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

No, you did not misunderstand my definition.  You misunderstood my meaning.

I went to an exceptional school with highly capable instructors.  They themselves were old school.  They were taught the old ways in AMERICAN education.  They were given enough freedom to teach that same level to the students of my generation.  As such, they had an amazing syllabus/curriculum.

When OC schools were encouraged to qualify for AP and IB, my district looked over their curriculum and some needed to make minor changes.  My school made only one change I'm aware of and they qualified.  The one change was the addition of "Theory of Knowledge" to the list of electives.  Everyone in the class was also in that same teacher's advanced English class.  We all thought it was a continuation of his expository essay unit in our main English class.

I may not know how things are in other districts or other states or even how things have changed in the many years since I was in high school (we didn't have "IB Diplomas" for instance).  But the classes I took were the same curriculum that had been taught there for years.  They just got to add another label to it.

I will mention one more thing.  My parents were poor enough that they didn't want to spend the money on these "AP/IB tests".  They didn't know what advantage I'd have.  So, even though I could have qualified and probably passed, I gained no college benefit from them other than I was ahead of my classmates in those topics.  But I was always ahead of my classmates anyway, so...

 

Ah, okay, I understand you now.

The cool thing about Florida is that the IB Program is offered in the Public School System so the Public School pays for the test as well.  You have to take the tests to get the IB Diploma, otherwise, it's like a tree that fell in the middle of the forest that nobody saw... it's like it didn't happen.  So yeah, Florida state funds spend quite a chunk of change for the IB students between the expanded high school curriculum to the tests to the Bright Futures scholarship for a 4-year community college tuition.

But yes, the greatest benefit of the IB program is really in the program itself regardless of whether it earned college credits or scholarships or what-not.  That Theory of Knowledge class alone and its application in the entire curriculum is priceless.

Edited February 16, 2017 by anatess2

[Backroads]

I took a bunch of AP classes in high school yet only tested on a couple.

I mostly took them because they sounded more interesting than their counterparts.

And we still talk about our table in Envi. Sci. AP. Two students at it are married with three kids and we have a private Facebook group.

[Guest MormonGator]

41 minutes ago, Backroads said:

we have a private Facebook group.

I'm going to start my own private FB group where we invite everyone but @Backroads

[JohnsonJones]

8 hours ago, DoctorLemon said:

In Texas, non-honors classes at the junior high level and above are really, really low quality and serve as a collection for the school's thugs and druggies.  It is kind of acknowledged in Texas that non-honors classes are not really intended for people who plan on going to some form of college.  Then again, that is Texas, and I understand our public education is pretty awful compared to other states.

I learned a lot in some of my AP classes.  However, taking AP Calculus my senior year was a mistake.  After making As in every math class before, I could not figure out AP Calculus at all, and it consumed much of my senior year.  I wound up passing on the curve, which guaranteed everyone a C (as I basically got nothing right all year long).  It was a black mark on my record, and, along with a similar experience in AP Physics, permanently swayed me away from an engineering career (especially since I took these classes dual credit, and could not repeat in college to learn basic Physics and Calculus).

I sometimes wonder, had I waited to take calculus and physics in college, if I would have wound up in engineering instead of law (and therefore would maybe have a more successful career).  Did AP classes, in a sense, ruin my life?  Or, did they give me a dose of introspection, letting me know early on that I am not meant for engineering?  Am I engaging in Millenial-style whining, even though I was born in the last year of Generation X (1982)?  Maybe, maybe.

Why couldn't you repeat the Physics and Calculus in College?

When I went to college, I then went on a mission.  Even though I had already had Calculus, I took College Algebra when I got back to shake up my memory so I could recall just what the heck I was doing in regards to math (not that it mattered, I ended up majoring in History).  I didn't have anyone saying I could not take it or redo any of the courses.

I think what I should have done for some of the courses is to take the test out option.  At BYU when I went, they had the option that you could take tests for many of the classes and basically test through them if you passed.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

Why couldn't you repeat the Physics and Calculus in College?

When I went to college, I then went on a mission.  Even though I had already had Calculus, I took College Algebra when I got back to shake up my memory so I could recall just what the heck I was doing in regards to math (not that it mattered, I ended up majoring in History).  I didn't have anyone saying I could not take it or redo any of the courses.

I think what I should have done for some of the courses is to take the test out option.  At BYU when I went, they had the option that you could take tests for many of the classes and basically test through them if you passed.

I may have been really ill advised by career counselors.  I did not really push the issue, though, because deep down being fully honest with myself I know I am not as smart as I wish I were and a calculus/physics career probably would not have worked out.  My inability to get through Chemistry II in college with a decent grade supports this conclusion, that while I may be many things, I am simply not a scientist (at least when any sort of complex math is required).

Hey, the world needs ambulance chasers too!

[Sunday21]

@Jane_Doe Thanks! AP means academic probation here! I was really worried about many of you for a bit!