How are we supposed to divide our worship of the Godhead?

[Rob Osborn]

On 4/14/2017 at 4:52 PM, Vort said:

There you go again, asserting that you know the mind of God. The more you talk, the less I believe that.

Many apostles of the Lord have suggested that the "technical rule" you rail against is a good idea. Their reasoning makes sense to me. Yours does not. Do you have any particular reasons why we should accept your less-logical word over their more-logical teachings?

Historic relevence shows how words change over time and gain new meaning. But, of more importance is our seeming lack of understanding the content of whats in our heart that matters not the way we decide to use or make rules in our language and then employ it in a flowery fashion.

[Rob Osborn]

On 4/14/2017 at 5:38 PM, The Folk Prophet said:

“In all our prayers, it is well to use the pronouns thee, thou, thy, and thine instead of you, your, and yours inasmuch as they have come to indicate respect.” - President Spencer W. Kimball (Faith Precedes the Miracle, Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1972, p. 201.)

"Whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same" - The Lord (D&C 1:38)

And yet, for our eternal companions who we are sealed to for all eternity we say the words "I love you" which is the highest respect we use. Is that not holy? Is not our wives, our children, these whom we hold most dear alongside God not also to be shown the utmost respect? When my brother says "we love you with all of our hearts" I find it deeply moving and I know and testify our Heavenly Father is completely satisfied to hear those words. God doesnt judge us on our speech or english, he looks at the intents of our hearts.

[The Folk Prophet]

9 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

And yet, for our eternal companions who we are sealed to for all eternity we say the words "I love you" which is the highest respect we use. Is that not holy? Is not our wives, our children, these whom we hold most dear alongside God not also to be shown the utmost respect? When my brother says "we love you with all of our hearts" I find it deeply moving and I know and testify our Heavenly Father is completely satisfied to hear those words. God doesnt judge us on our speech or english, he looks at the intents of our hearts.

Sure. You know better than President Kimball and the other prophet's and apostles. You've made that clear in the past.

[Rob Osborn]

10 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Sure. You know better than President Kimball and the other prophet's and apostles. You've made that clear in the past.

Do you think he ignores those who dont use "thee" "thy" "thou" "thine"?

[The Folk Prophet]

Just now, Rob Osborn said:

Do you think he ignores those who dont use "thee" "thy" "thou" "thine"?

No. And I don't think when people pass the sacrament in colored shirts it invalidates the ordinance either. That has no bearing on whether one "should" wear a white shirt or not, and has no bearing on whether one "should" use the forms that the prophets and apostles have suggested we use in prayer.

[Rob Osborn]

2 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

No. And I don't think when people pass the sacrament in colored shirts it invalidates the ordinance either. That has no bearing on whether one "should" wear a white shirt or not, and has no bearing on whether one "should" use the forms that the prophets and apostles have suggested we use in prayer.

Exactly, they are our own constructs, not necessarily divine revelation.

[The Folk Prophet]

4 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Exactly, they are our own constructs, not necessarily divine revelation.

You're the only one talking about "your own" constructs. The rest of us are talking about guidance from ecclesiastical leaders who have the authority to give said guidance. Your authority in the matter is nil. I'll give you two guesses who's authority between you and President Kimball I'll defer to.

As I've said before. Believe what you will. Just don't expect others to jump on your constructs of things against the constructs of actual figures of authority just because you claim to know better.

[Rob Osborn]

44 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

You're the only one talking about "your own" constructs. The rest of us are talking about guidance from ecclesiastical leaders who have the authority to give said guidance. Your authority in the matter is nil. I'll give you two guesses who's authority between you and President Kimball I'll defer to.

As I've said before. Believe what you will. Just don't expect others to jump on your constructs of things against the constructs of actual figures of authority just because you claim to know better.

If using the word "thee" is held in respect in praising and worshiping, then why do the scriptures use this same word in addressing Satan? In fact, LDS still use it to cast Satan out of their midst. "Satan, get thee hence" is one such popular phrase used. 

[The Folk Prophet]

27 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

If using the word "thee" is held in respect in praising and worshiping, then why do the scriptures use this same word in addressing Satan? In fact, LDS still use it to cast Satan out of their midst. "Satan, get thee hence" is one such popular phrase used. 

Well then...I suppose the debate is won with that attack of astounding logic.

[person0]

34 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

If using the word "thee" is held in respect in praising and worshiping, then why do the scriptures use this same word in addressing Satan? In fact, LDS still use it to cast Satan out of their midst. "Satan, get thee hence" is one such popular phrase used. 

5 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Well then...I suppose the debate is won with that attack of astounding logic.

Perhaps Satan wont actually obey you unless you give him the respect he thinks he deserves!   

Edited April 18, 2017 by person0

[zil]

And herein we see the lack of understanding.  In the languages I know which have two second-person pronouns, their use is divided as follows (note: I'm merging three languages, there are subtle differences, but I'm just merging them into general rules; and as was said elsewhere in this thread, there are cultural/familial exceptions):

1) The familiar (tu, ты, thou) is used:

• For those in your family
• For close friends
• For peers / equals (fellow students, co-workers)
• Underlings (children, teacher to student, boss to employee)
• When used with strangers, it's generally an insult (implies they're subordinate to you)
• (it is always singular)

2) The formal (usted, вы, you) is used:

• As the plural (you all) regardless of relationships
• For those in authority over you (employee to boss, student to teacher, child to adult, citizen to police officer)
• For strangers (as a sign of respect)

Given these general guidelines, it's not at all surprising or contradictory to use the same term respectfully when speaking to our Father, and dismissively when addressing Satan.

Edited April 18, 2017 by zil

[Rob Osborn]

46 minutes ago, zil said:

And herein we see the lack of understanding.  In the languages I know which have two second-person pronouns, their use is divided as follows (note: I'm merging three languages, there are subtle differences, but I'm just merging them into general rules; and as was said elsewhere in this thread, there are cultural/familial exceptions):

1) The familiar (tu, ты, thou) is used:

• For those in your family
• For close friends
• For peers / equals (fellow students, co-workers)
• Underlings (children, teacher to student, boss to employee)
• When used with strangers, it's generally an insult (implies they're subordinate to you)
• (it is always singular)

2) The formal (usted, вы, you) is used:

• As the plural (you all) regardless of relationships
• For those in authority over you (employee to boss, student to teacher, child to adult, citizen to police officer)
• For strangers (as a sign of respect)

Given these general guidelines, it's not at all surprising or contradictory to use the same term respectfully when speaking to our Father, and dismissively when addressing Satan.

Perhaps the truth is that as the English language changed, certain archaic words went into disuse then got associated with religious context and so we then developed new definitions of the words that are indeed different than how it was originally meant. So, in reality, we invented "prayer language". 

Why is it that our address to God is supposedly more respectful than to our own spouse who is the very loved and holy creation of God himself. And yet, when God addresses any of his children he uses the same language and respect.

[anatess2]

About children and language in prayer:

I am in a multi-lingual household so my kids are comfortable with languages, especially since they are also well-traveled.  That said, even in single-language households, we still teach children that there are different ways of addressing people.  For example, you don't talk to your teachers (or adults in general) in the same informal manner that you talk to your friends.  As my kids become teenagers, my husband has often reprimanded my kids, "You don't talk to your mother like that!".  So, even my kids are learning that their "boy language" with their dad is not to be used on their mother or even women in general.  These things are ways of showing respect.

So then, here's this Face-to-Face Devotional last March where President Eyring and Elder Holland answered a question from a youth in the church about how to make prayers more meaningful.  President Eyring said, "I worry about speaking <to God> in a too familiar way.  He is God."  The question starts in minute 38 of the video below.

So, in my house, my kids learn that we talk to God in the language of scripture to show respect - that we may not address God in a too familiar way.  He is God.

 

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, anatess2 said:

About children and language in prayer:

I am in a multi-lingual household so my kids are comfortable with languages, especially since they are also well-traveled.  That said, even in single-language households, we still teach children that there are different ways of addressing people.  For example, you don't talk to your teachers (or adults in general) in the same informal manner that you talk to your friends.  As my kids become teenagers, my husband has often reprimanded my kids, "You don't talk to your mother like that!".  So, even my kids are learning that their "boy language" with their dad is not to be used on their mother or even women in general.  These things are ways of showing respect.

So then, here's this Face-to-Face Devotional last March where President Eyring and Elder Holland answered a question from a youth in the church about how to make prayers more meaningful.  President Eyring said, "I worry about speaking <to God> in a too familiar way.  He is God."  The question starts in minute 38 of the video below.

So, in my house, my kids learn that we talk to God in the language of scripture to show respect - that we may not address God in a too familiar way.  He is God.

 

Its kind of vague. I agree that we shouldnt speak to God in a manner as if were not making it of importance. The "familiar way" I have a slightly different take on it and I think its important. Why is it that we kerp assuming how we should address God when the pattern from the scriptures shows that the same familiar language is always used for them? Why do we suppose that somehow the type of words we use needs to somehow place God on a pedestal of worship? Are we not commanded to treat all of Gods creations with the same holy respect? Why would, or should, addressing our fellow man not be done with the same utmost respect and holiness? Does not our frames act as temples that house the spirit of God? 

[anatess2]

3 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Its kind of vague. I agree that we shouldnt speak to God in a manner as if were not making it of importance. The "familiar way" I have a slightly different take on it and I think its important. Why is it that we kerp assuming how we should address God when the pattern from the scriptures shows that the same familiar language is always used for them? Why do we suppose that somehow the type of words we use needs to somehow place God on a pedestal of worship? Are we not commanded to treat all of Gods creations with the same holy respect? Why would, or should, addressing our fellow man not be done with the same utmost respect and holiness? Does not our frames act as temples that house the spirit of God? 

How do you know that the language used in ancient prayer is a "familiar" language?  We need to place God on a pedestal of worship - in thought, words, and deed, and yes, even in dress.  Hence, Sunday best.

And yes, all of God's creation should be addressed with respect.  Hence, the guidance of proper speech and dress in the For The Strength of Youth.

Edited April 18, 2017 by anatess2

[Rob Osborn]

6 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

How do you know that the language used in ancient prayer is a "familiar" language?  We need to place God on a pedestal of worship - in thought, words, and deed, and yes, even in dress.  Hence, Sunday best.

And yes, all of God's creation should be addressed with respect.  Hence, the guidance of proper speech and dress in the For The Strength of Youth.

Familiar language and "slang" are two separate things. No, we shouldnt address God in slang language. But, we should also have that same priority for speaking to man. It was God himself that taught Adam to speak. I did an experiment years ago by showing up to school one day a week in my sunday best. The results were very shocking in a positive manner. Its only man and his ill heart that seeks to despise his fellow man and think of him less than godliness and thus create social class in society including titles and heirarchy. Thats all mans ill constructs. We need to start viewing all of men in holiness and respect and speak from the same pure heart whether we are addressing God or our fellow men for all are holy and are or should be godly.

[anatess2]

41 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Familiar language and "slang" are two separate things. No, we shouldnt address God in slang language. But, we should also have that same priority for speaking to man. It was God himself that taught Adam to speak. I did an experiment years ago by showing up to school one day a week in my sunday best. The results were very shocking in a positive manner. Its only man and his ill heart that seeks to despise his fellow man and think of him less than godliness and thus create social class in society including titles and heirarchy. Thats all mans ill constructs. We need to start viewing all of men in holiness and respect and speak from the same pure heart whether we are addressing God or our fellow men for all are holy and are or should be godly.

Obviously, God demands a higher degree of respect than our fellowmen.  Otherwise, there will only be 1 great commandment instead of 2.

Of course you cannot compare how your fellow man reacts to your Sunday best as opposed to our God.  We don't wear Sunday best for social class or mortal hierarchy or to impress our fellowmen or whatever thing you just said.  We wear Sunday best because God deserves our best.  If you think wearing the same muddy pants to weed your yard is appropriate for God because it is your best, then that's your Sunday best and it's not my right to judge you.  I believe my best suit that I only wear on Sunday is my Sunday best.

So yeah, if you think talking to God in the same manner you talk to your fellow man is a higher degree of respect and qualifies for worship, then that's not my right to judge.  But if you ask me what I teach my children, I teach my children that you don't talk to your boss at work with the same familiarity as you talk to your friends even if your boss is your friend.  How much more for God.  We use scripture language when praying to God because we reserve that style of communication to God to set Him apart from everything else.

If you don't feel inclined to set God apart from the way you communicate with everything else because you don't feel it necessary, then, by all means, that's your prerogative.

 

Edited April 18, 2017 by anatess2

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

Obviously, God demands a higher degree of respect than our fellowmen.  Otherwise, there will only be 1 great commandment instead of 2.

Of course you cannot compare how your fellow man reacts to your Sunday best as opposed to our God.  We don't wear Sunday best for social class or mortal hierarchy or to impress our fellowmen or whatever thing you just said.  We wear Sunday best because God deserves our best.  If you think wearing the same muddy pants to weed your yard is appropriate for God because it is your best, then that's your Sunday best and it's not my right to judge you.  I believe my best suit that I only wear on Sunday is my Sunday best.

So yeah, if you think talking to God in the same manner you talk to your fellow man is a higher degree of respect and qualifies for worship, then that's not my right to judge.  But if you ask me what I teach my children, I teach my children that you don't talk to your boss at work with the same familiarity as you talk to your friends even if your boss is your friend.  How much more for God.  We use scripture language when praying to God because we reserve that style of communication to God to set Him apart from everything else.

If you don't feel inclined to set God apart from the way you communicate with everything else because you don't feel it necessary, then, by all means, that's your prerogative.

 

Perhaps we are not understanding each other. What I am suggesting is that in our deeds, words and hearts we should be treating all people with the same honor, love and respect that we treat God. There shouldnt be a difference. If I am communicating words that best convey the ultimate love I have for my wife it shouldnt be less than the same I show to Heavenly Father, it shouldnt be any different. I readily admit that I use the words "thee", "thy", "thou", etc, in my prayers. But, its out of habit and I have often times found that in speaking from my heart to God that I dont hold fast to any rule of words but instead use what best describes my heart. If I say "I am thankful for "your" helping me" it means the same thing. But, if we start making rules, its stating that man is lesser as a creation than godliness and deserves less. This is not a godly position, its a human and fallen worldly philosophy.

I never correct anyone in the wording of their prayers. Even some of our songs address these issues. I can think of one right off-

 

. Heavenly Father, are you really there?

And do you hear and answer ev'ry child's prayer?

Some say that heaven is far away,

 

 

 

[anatess2]

3 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Perhaps we are not understanding each other. What I am suggesting is that in our deeds, words and hearts we should be treating all people with the same honor, love and respect that we treat God. There shouldnt be a difference. If I am communicating words that best convey the ultimate love I have for my wife it shouldnt be less than the same I show to Heavenly Father, it shouldnt be any different. I readily admit that I use the words "thee", "thy", "thou", etc, in my prayers. But, its out of habit and I have often times found that in speaking from my heart to God that I dont hold fast to any rule of words but instead use what best describes my heart. If I say "I am thankful for "your" helping me" it means the same thing. But, if we start making rules, its stating that man is lesser as a creation than godliness and deserves less. This is not a godly position, its a human and fallen worldly philosophy.

I never correct anyone in the wording of their prayers. Even some of our songs address these issues. I can think of one right off-

 

. Heavenly Father, are you really there?

And do you hear and answer ev'ry child's prayer?

Some say that heaven is far away,

 

 

 

I have not misunderstood you.  I simply don't see it the same way as you do.  I don't worship my husband regardless of how much I love him.  I don't worship anybody else but God.  God, of course, is on a much higher plane than anybody on the planet including my husband and my children.  This holds true even as my husband and I - if we are so blessed - enters the Celestial Kingdom.  God will ALWAYS and FOREVER be on a higher plane than anybody else.

Remember, 2 commandments.  1.)  Love God, 2.) Love others as yourself.  2 separate commandments.  There is a reason for Jesus to not have said - there is only 1 great commandment, Love God like you love others as yourself.

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

I have not misunderstood you.  I simply don't see it the same way as you do.  I don't worship my husband regardless of how much I love him.  I don't worship anybody else but God.  God, of course, is on a much higher plane than anybody on the planet including my husband and my children.  This holds true even as my husband and I - if we are so blessed - enters the Celestial Kingdom.  God will ALWAYS and FOREVER be on a higher plane than anybody else.

Remember, 2 commandments.  1.)  Love God, 2.) Love others as yourself.  2 separate commandments.  There is a reason for Jesus to not have said - there is only 1 great commandment, Love God like you love others as yourself.

I think we both agree mostly. To clarify, I am not advocating worshiping my wife. Communication of our heart needs to be the same. How we use words, void of a pure language like Adam had, doesnt matter so much as that we communicate the same in our hearts.

[anatess2]

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I think we both agree mostly. To clarify, I am not advocating worshiping my wife. Communication of our heart needs to be the same. How we use words, void of a pure language like Adam had, doesnt matter so much as that we communicate the same in our hearts.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean here - are you saying that you and I communicate to God the same in our hearts?  Or are you saying that you communicate to your wife the same as you communicate to God in your heart? 

I don't communicate to my husband the same as I communicate to God in my heart.  My husband is my husband.  My God is my God.  Words or heart - they are different to me.

[Rob Osborn]

35 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

I'm not sure I understand what you mean here - are you saying that you and I communicate to God the same in our hearts?  Or are you saying that you communicate to your wife the same as you communicate to God in your heart? 

I don't communicate to my husband the same as I communicate to God in my heart.  My husband is my husband.  My God is my God.  Words or heart - they are different to me.

I speak with my wife with the same love and respect as I do my Heavenly Father.

[anatess2]

8 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I speak with my wife with the same love and respect as I do my Heavenly Father.

Ok, so we're different.  I speak with my Heavenly Father - and I've taught my kids to speak with our Heavenly Father - with worshipful reverence and subservience that is reserved for God and is not appropriate for my husband.  I speak to my husband with love and respect as my equal that is not appropriate for God.

Edited April 19, 2017 by anatess2

[Rob Osborn]

56 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Ok, so we're different.  I speak with my Heavenly Father - and I've taught my kids to speak with our Heavenly Father - with worshipful reverence and subservience that is reserved for God and is not appropriate for my husband.  I speak to my husband with love and respect as my equal that is not appropriate for God.

I dont think we understand each other.

[Rob Osborn]

This is what I mean, compare these two scriptures.

22 Thou shalt love thy wife with all thy heart, and shalt cleave unto her and none else. (D&C 42:22)

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. (Matthew 22:37)

These two scriptures tell us to love God and our wives the same- with all our heart. If we are to do this it means we have the same loyalty, charity, reverence, etc, for both. As such the pure phrase "I love you" is undefiled and represents our greatest communication of our heart. So, it shouldnt matter if we use this phrase in the same wording with either God, or our wife. To say its a lower class of language that we reserve for her and then we have a higher language for God would mean we arent really loving our wife with all our heart.