Guest Posted April 30, 2017 Report Share Posted April 30, 2017 We get to live like Heavenly Father and have a continuation of the seeds forever. With all those children and agency we are bound to have posterity who are like Satan and fall away into Outer Darkness. How can we enjoy exaltation to its fullest when we can lose so many children to sin? Where's the joy in that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fether Posted April 30, 2017 Report Share Posted April 30, 2017 I think that is one thing that we need to learn. I won't pretend to understand, but we can't base our happiness on the choices of others, even close family. And will the evils of 1 child ruin the joys of the other 2? God himself weeps! But sadness and joy are two drastically different emotions that do not have an effect on one another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
person0 Posted April 30, 2017 Report Share Posted April 30, 2017 14 minutes ago, Zarahemla said: We get to live like Heavenly Father and have a continuation of the seeds forever. With all those children and agency we are bound to have posterity who are like Satan and fall away into Outer Darkness. How can we enjoy exaltation to its fullest when we can lose so many children to sin? Where's the joy in that? Even Satan now exists as a spirit being, which is a greater state than what would presumably have been his form of existence prior to being born as a spirit child of God. Just as those who ultimately are sons of perdition are still further progressed via resurrection than when they were pre-mortal spirits. Heavenly Father is not hampered by the limitations of human logic and emotion that could affect, his ability to experience joy in His work. I would imagine that there is a certain amount of joy in all levels of progression. Suppose you were an architect and had developed thousands of high quality blueprints yet only a handful of those blueprints ever became actual buildings. Can you not take joy in the many blueprints you had developed over the years from thought to paper, and yet take more joy in those that became actual buildings, and yet even more joy in the buildings that were world renown? I am speculating here, but would presume that God takes joy in all His creations, and yet, has more joy in those who inherit glory, and yet even more joy in those who inherit eternal life. Regardless of the final result of progression, all of His creations are better off than before he organized/created them. zil 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted April 30, 2017 Report Share Posted April 30, 2017 3 hours ago, Zarahemla said: We get to live like Heavenly Father and have a continuation of the seeds forever. With all those children and agency we are bound to have posterity who are like Satan and fall away into Outer Darkness. How can we enjoy exaltation to its fullest when we can lose so many children to sin? Where's the joy in that? Not sure a situation like happened with Satan will happen again. I think it was a rather extremely rare occurance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 30, 2017 Report Share Posted April 30, 2017 5 hours ago, Rob Osborn said: Not sure a situation like happened with Satan will happen again. I think it was a rather extremely rare occurance. That would be so good if the Atonement covers the worlds we help populate and help create. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fether Posted April 30, 2017 Report Share Posted April 30, 2017 1 hour ago, Zarahemla said: That would be so good if the Atonement covers the worlds we help populate and help create. Even if it does, the atonement doesn't prevent people from perdition @Rob Osborn It will happen again. 1/3 of the host of heaven is not "rare". Discussion in the endowment ordinance also explain that this is not the first time something like this happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted April 30, 2017 Report Share Posted April 30, 2017 44 minutes ago, Fether said: Even if it does, the atonement doesn't prevent people from perdition @Rob Osborn It will happen again. 1/3 of the host of heaven is not "rare". Discussion in the endowment ordinance also explain that this is not the first time something like this happened. I disagree. Discussion in the endowment has Satan being deceptive. Saying hes only doing whats been done on other worlds isnt indicative of whats really going on. Hes clearly being deceptive. The situation is unique because Lucifer was in a very high authoritive position when he fell. I doubt that this is a familiar seen in the heavens. I believe it was an extremely rare situation that literally turned a relatively peaceful heaven into a massive battlefield. I further believe that this situation effected all of the heavenly host. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fether Posted April 30, 2017 Report Share Posted April 30, 2017 7 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said: I disagree. Discussion in the endowment has Satan being deceptive. Saying hes only doing whats been done on other worlds isnt indicative of whats really going on. Hes clearly being deceptive. The situation is unique because Lucifer was in a very high authoritive position when he fell. I doubt that this is a familiar seen in the heavens. I believe it was an extremely rare situation that literally turned a relatively peaceful heaven into a massive battlefield. I further believe that this situation effected all of the heavenly host. So do you believe that future and past creations were for the most part peaceful and without dissent or rebellion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted April 30, 2017 Report Share Posted April 30, 2017 2 hours ago, Zarahemla said: That would be so good if the Atonement covers the worlds we help populate and help create. I believe it does. Official church doctrine teaches his atonement is for other earths also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted April 30, 2017 Report Share Posted April 30, 2017 8 hours ago, Rob Osborn said: Not sure a situation like happened with Satan will happen again. I think it was a rather extremely rare occurance. Evil is rare? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted April 30, 2017 Report Share Posted April 30, 2017 10 minutes ago, Fether said: So do you believe that future and past creations were for the most part peaceful and without dissent or rebellion? Well, the future is yet to unfold but as for the past I believe heaven was relatively peaceful. We know God has peopled a myriad of other earths and yet it is our earth that is the most wicked. 36 Wherefore, I can stretch forth mine hands and hold all the creations which I have made; and mine eye can pierce them also, and among all the workmanship of mine hands there has not been so great wickedness as among thy brethren. (Moses 7:36) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted April 30, 2017 Report Share Posted April 30, 2017 5 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: Evil is rare? The situation with Lucifer falling, an angel of light with high authority, was a rare occurence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted April 30, 2017 Report Share Posted April 30, 2017 Just now, Rob Osborn said: The situation with Lucifer falling, an angel of light with high authority, was a rare occurence. Yes, because power and authority never corrupt usually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted April 30, 2017 Report Share Posted April 30, 2017 1 minute ago, The Folk Prophet said: Yes, because power and authority never corrupt usually. Not in this type. It was a rare occurance that caused all eternity- all the host of the heavens to take notice. 11 For all flesh is corrupted before me; and the powers of darkness prevail upon the earth, among the children of men, in the presence of all the hosts of heaven 12 Which causeth silence to reign, and all eternity is pained, and the angels are waiting the great command to reap down the earth, to gather the tares that they may be burned; and, behold, the enemy is combined. (D&C 38:11-12) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted April 30, 2017 Report Share Posted April 30, 2017 1 minute ago, Rob Osborn said: It was a rare occurance The specifics of any individual's evil and the way it manifests will always be unique. But the idea that no one will ever rise to the top of an evil movement in the spiritual plain is laughably naive. Evil will always exist. Men (and spirits) will always seek power in corruption. The fact that things won't happen again exactly like they did with Lucifer is moderately obvious. The fact that there will never again be evil spirits tempting mortal men to turn away from righteousness stretches credulity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fether Posted April 30, 2017 Report Share Posted April 30, 2017 8 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said: Not in this type. It was a rare occurance that caused all eternity- all the host of the heavens to take notice. 11 For all flesh is corrupted before me; and the powers of darkness prevail upon the earth, among the children of men, in the presence of all the hosts of heaven 12 Which causeth silence to reign, and all eternity is pained, and the angels are waiting the great command to reap down the earth, to gather the tares that they may be burned; and, behold, the enemy is combined. (D&C 38:11-12) Evil is a natural thing. The purpose of life is to learn to choose good over evil. The natural man is an enemy of god and is naturally evil (Mosiah 3:19) Without evil, we can't choose good and progress to exaltation. Without Satan or someone like him to rebel, how can we progress to exaltation? Yes maybe this EXACT situation hasn't and never will happen again, but satanlike children of God will come again. Without evil, Gods plan is frustrated. and you can't possibly say it was a rare occurance... there is nothing that supports that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted April 30, 2017 Report Share Posted April 30, 2017 8 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: The specifics of any individual's evil and the way it manifests will always be unique. But the idea that no one will ever rise to the top of an evil movement in the spiritual plain is laughably naive. Evil will always exist. Men (and spirits) will always seek power in corruption. The fact that things won't happen again exactly like they did with Lucifer is moderately obvious. The fact that there will never again be evil spirits tempting mortal men to turn away from righteousness stretches credulity. And yet, amongst all the countless planets God has peopled, it is ours that has the greatest evil. Im not saying there never was evil nor that it will cease entirely. Im saying that this type, depth, and impact of evil brought on by Satan is the worst that has ever happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted April 30, 2017 Report Share Posted April 30, 2017 7 minutes ago, Fether said: Evil is a natural thing. The purpose of life is to learn to choose good over evil. The natural man is an enemy of god and is naturally evil (Mosiah 3:19) Without evil, we can't choose good and progress to exaltation. Without Satan or someone like him to rebel, how can we progress to exaltation? Yes maybe this EXACT situation hasn't and never will happen again, but satanlike children of God will come again. Without evil, Gods plan is frustrated. and you can't possibly say it was a rare occurance... there is nothing that supports that. Satan is not required for Gods plan to exalt his children. I will ask you the same thing- why is it that our earth is the wickedest of all of Gods creations? Ehy is it that Christ is the savior of all other earths yet it is only this one where the atonement was made of which exalts Christ never to go out again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 30, 2017 Report Share Posted April 30, 2017 21 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said: And yet, amongst all the countless planets God has peopled, it is ours that has the greatest evil. Im not saying there never was evil nor that it will cease entirely. Im saying that this type, depth, and impact of evil brought on by Satan is the worst that has ever happened. You make lots of statements like this as if they are fact or common knowledge, but in my 30-(mumble) years of life, all in the Church, I've never heard many of them.. I'd be really interested to see citations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted April 30, 2017 Report Share Posted April 30, 2017 3 minutes ago, Eowyn said: You make lots of statements like this as if they are fact or common knowledge, but in my 30-(mumble) years of life, all in the Church, I've never heard many of them.. I'd be really interested to see citations. 36 Wherefore, I can stretch forth mine hands and hold all the creations which I have made; and mine eye can pierce them also, and among all the workmanship of mine hands there has not been so great wickedness as among thy brethren. (Moses 7:36) This is in reference to verse 30 where Enoch is asking God why he can weep over our earth in considering he has created millions of earths like ours. In reply God tells Enoch that of "all" his creations, our is the most wicked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted April 30, 2017 Report Share Posted April 30, 2017 4 minutes ago, Eowyn said: You make lots of statements like this as if they are fact or common knowledge, but in my 30-(mumble) years of life, all in the Church, I've never heard many of them.. I'd be really interested to see citations. There are citations for some of it. He self-interprets a lot of it. This earth being the most wicked of all that have ever existed, imo, is a pretty big stretch based on pseudo-doctrine. I simply don't buy it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted April 30, 2017 Report Share Posted April 30, 2017 1 minute ago, The Folk Prophet said: There are citations for some of it. He self-interprets a lot of it. This earth being the most wicked of all that have ever existed, imo, is a pretty big stretch based on pseudo-doctrine. I simply don't buy it. Please see previous post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted April 30, 2017 Report Share Posted April 30, 2017 1 minute ago, Rob Osborn said: Please see previous post. I don't care what your interpretations of things are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted April 30, 2017 Report Share Posted April 30, 2017 2 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: I don't care what your interpretations of things are. How woyld you interpret those verses then? The only alternative to go against what I have said is that in verse 36 God is only referring to the inhabitants of this earth when he says "I can stretch forth mine hands and hold all the creations which I have made" Is this your interpretation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 30, 2017 Report Share Posted April 30, 2017 My question is did Christ's Atonement cover other worlds too? Or does each world have to have a Savior? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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