The Martyrdom Of Joseph Smith

[Snow]

On another thread a poster asserts/concludes that Joseph Smith was murdered because of his support of the 'divine feminine.'

I believe things for which there is no evidence - for example I believe, although I admit is it mostly fantasy, that the Homer, a man, wrote the Iliad and that his scribe was a woman, perhaps his daughter or his grand-daughter. From Homer she learned the oral poetic tradition and after his death, she penned The Odyssey. Now there are reasons I believe that - but I don't conclude it from any basis in fact. It's a half serious, possibly true belief.

If Joseph had been murdered for what the poster claims, there should be some evidence for it:

-Who killed JS?

-What was their understanding of JS's feministic themes?

-What were their feelings about JS's beliefs on same?

-etc.

It goes without saying that there is no such evidence.

Another poster asserted that those in the know, understand that JS was killed for spilling the Masonic beans. Others have alternate views perhaps.

What are the forces that led to Joseph's death?

Who was involved?

Why?

What are the relevant sequence of events?

[Snow]

No takers?

Aside from the supernatural explanations, how about this:

-Mormons had created a quasi-independent city/state in Nauvoo.

-Mormon population growth represented a perceived political threat to non-Mormons.

-The Nauvoo Legion was an example of the perceived threat.

-There were lots of religious bigots.

-Religiously Mormons were frowned upon by established denominations who viewed it as both heretical and as a threat.

-Joseph had surreptitiously introduced plural marriage.

-Joseph had been accused of being a libertine and preying on young women.

-Disgruntled apostates plotted behind Joseph's back and fomented antagonism towards him and the Church.

-Some of the disgruntled and disaffected formed associates formed the Nauvoo Expositor which published one addition that said:

---JS was a fallen prophet who was now promoting polygamy and exaltation

---That as Mayor of Nauvoo and President of the Church, JS had too much power

---JS was corrupting women.

-JS ordered the Expositor printing presses destroyed.

-The rabid anti-Mormon Warsaw Signal proclaimed: "War and extermination is inevitable! Citizens ARISE, ONE and ALL!!!—Can you stand by, and suffer such INFERNAL DEVILS! To ROB men of their property and RIGHTS, without avenging them. We have no time for comment, every man will make his own. LET IT BE MADE WITH POWDER AND BALL!!!" (Warsaw Signal, 12 June 1844, p. 2.)

-Spirit of anti-Joseph Smithism engulf the non-LDS communities and legals systems.

-Warrants against JS were taken out.

-JS originally started to flee. Recognizing that returning would result in his own death, he returned anyway.

-JS imprisoned.

-Mobocracy prevailed.......

Some alternate, but far out, theories included ideas about Free Mason retribution or an assasination because of JS's run for the US Presidency.

[BenRaines]

From what I know your description of why the mob killed Joseph Smith that too is how I understand it and believe it to have been.

Of course where would conspiracy theory be with out all those other guesses as to why it happened.

Ben Raines

[pushka]

I think I get your point, in your 1st post...speculation doesn't automatically equal the truth. Unless you have the confessions of those who did the assasination, you will never know the real reason why he was killed. Am I right, Snow?

[Snow]

I think I get your point, in your 1st post...speculation doesn't automatically equal the truth. Unless you have the confessions of those who did the assasination, you will never know the real reason why he was killed. Am I right, Snow?

Not exactly. We don't have the confessions but I think enough is known (evidence) to outline some proximate events and motivations that culminated in the murder.

Another poster claimed the motivation and cause was something for which there was no evidence. I was hoping the poster would admit that there conclusions weren't conclusions based on anything tangible or knowable or post some evidence that supported their view. Instead the poster just complained that I was attacking her... statistically speaking that's a fair bet but in her case I wasn't. In her case I was just an agressive debater.

[a-train]

Snow is an aggressive debater and a lot of people get their feathers ruffled by him. I would tell him to stop being such a mean guy, but he would just debate out it.

-a-train

[Palerider]

Snow is an aggressive debater and a lot of people get their feathers ruffled by him. I would tell him to stop being such a mean guy, but he would just debate out it.

-a-train

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!........

[Old Tex]

Snow is an aggressive debater and a lot of people get their feathers ruffled by him. I would tell him to stop being such a mean guy, but he would just debate out it.-a-train

Yeah! You should have heard him on another forum where the real mean antis would show up.. Snow would take on anyone. Sometimes with a little more viger than I personally considered necessary, but I'm more of a soft shoe kind of guy. I have a lot of respect for Snow.

[Snow]

a little more viger than I personally considered necessary

Yes, well we prosecuted WWII against the Germans with a little more vigor than the Nazi's considered necessary but....

Sorry - that doesn't even make sense. I do agree that more circumspection (from me) wouldn't be a bad thing.

[Old Tex]

No takers?

Aside from the supernatural explanations, how about this:

-Mormons had created a quasi-independent city/state in Nauvoo.

-Mormon population growth represented a perceived political threat to non-Mormons.

-The Nauvoo Legion was an example of the perceived threat.

-There were lots of religious bigots.

-Religiously Mormons were frowned upon by established denominations who viewed it as both heretical and as a threat.

-Joseph had surreptitiously introduced plural marriage.

-Joseph had been accused of being a libertine and preying on young women.

-Disgruntled apostates plotted behind Joseph's back and fomented antagonism towards him and the Church.

-Some of the disgruntled and disaffected formed associates formed the Nauvoo Expositor which published one addition that said:

---JS was a fallen prophet who was now promoting polygamy and exaltation

---That as Mayor of Nauvoo and President of the Church, JS had too much power

---JS was corrupting women.

-JS ordered the Expositor printing presses destroyed.

-The rabid anti-Mormon Warsaw Signal proclaimed: "War and extermination is inevitable! Citizens ARISE, ONE and ALL!!!—Can you stand by, and suffer such INFERNAL DEVILS! To ROB men of their property and RIGHTS, without avenging them. We have no time for comment, every man will make his own. LET IT BE MADE WITH POWDER AND BALL!!!" (Warsaw Signal, 12 June 1844, p. 2.)

-Spirit of anti-Joseph Smithism engulf the non-LDS communities and legals systems.

-Warrants against JS were taken out.

-JS originally started to flee. Recognizing that returning would result in his own death, he returned anyway.

-JS imprisoned.

-Mobocracy prevailed.......

Some alternate, but far out, theories included ideas about Free Mason retribution or an assasination because of JS's run for the US Presidency.

I can think of one other..........Sometimes some prophets are called upon to seal their testimony with their blood.

[Traveler]

On another thread a poster asserts/concludes that Joseph Smith was murdered because of his support of the 'divine feminine.'

You may be the only one on this forum - other than the first post - that feels that this is a topic worth consideration.

The Traveler

[Snow]

I can think of one other..........Sometimes some prophets are called upon to seal their testimony with their blood.

Absolutely - yes.

I think most of us LDS believe that ultimately it comes down to the forces of evil seeking to thwart the work of God.

<div class='quotemain'>

On another thread a poster asserts/concludes that Joseph Smith was murdered because of his support of the 'divine feminine.'

You may be the only one on this forum - other than the first post - that feels that this is a topic worth consideration.

The Traveler

Actually, if you read my first post and read a bit below the surface, I think you'll find that I don't really care much about the posters opinion. It is the logic that I am interested in. If you claim you "conclude" something, you ought be able to define the issues that led to the conclusion - what's the argumentation if you will.

If you have no evidence, no basis in fact, say so. Say that you fancy the idea, or have some intuition... but don't pretend that you have "concluded."

I think that most people know that I have some non-orthodox ideas. I don't pretend my ideas are doctrinal and I don't act like my guesses are based on fact.

[a-train]

<div class='quotemain'>

a little more viger than I personally considered necessary

Yes, well we prosecuted WWII against the Germans with a little more vigor than the Nazi's considered necessary but....

Sorry - that doesn't even make sense.

See what I mean...

-a-train

[snipe123]

<div class='quotemain'>

a little more viger than I personally considered necessary

Yes, well we prosecuted WWII against the Germans with a little more vigor than the Nazi's considered necessary but....

Sorry - that doesn't even make sense. I do agree that more circumspection (from me) wouldn't be a bad thing.

HAHAHA...A bit of diplomacy(not meaning compromise) never hurt anyone Snow, especially when speaking about religious beliefs...:) I like your posts very much, but I think everyone in this forum would be better served if there were less contention, personal attacks, the jumping-down-the-throat-ism at the slightest infraction or missunderstanding that people on here engage in...You know we sometimes express divergent beliefs while sitting in Gospel Doctrine but you seldom see the kind of venom there that we see here...I wish the discussions on the forums were more dominated by the Spirit than the contention which seems to reign supreme...

By the way, who is the flaming idiot (hahaha...just joking) that says Joseph was executed for advocating the divine feminine...Oh, wait...it's probably Gaia...nevermind...not even going to touch that idea...I'm with you on your points regarding the martyrdom Snow...

[Snow]

HAHAHA...A bit of diplomacy(not meaning compromise) never hurt anyone Snow, especially when speaking about religious beliefs...:) I like your posts very much, but I think everyone in this forum would be better served if there were less contention, personal attacks, the jumping-down-the-throat-ism at the slightest infraction or missunderstanding that people on here engage in...You know we sometimes express divergent beliefs while sitting in Gospel Doctrine but you seldom see the kind of venom there that we see here...I wish the discussions on the forums were more dominated by the Spirit than the contention which seems to reign supreme...

Well - maybe - yeah. I don't have any issues with 95 out of 100 posters. It's the one or two or so that have ill intentions towards the Church that seem to most get me running. Most the others I treat... like you would treat me. If ill-intentioned posters turn from their dark ways the ruinious paths, I let it drop. I am not saying that is good or the way it should or shouldn't be. I just know what my motivations and behaviors look like.

By the way, who is the flaming idiot (hahaha...just joking) that says Joseph was executed for advocating the divine feminine...Oh, wait...it's probably Gaia...nevermind...not even going to touch that idea...I'm with you on your points regarding the martyrdom Snow...

No, just another poster who I think isn't thinking logically on the topic.

[Annabelli]

Hi Snow: The Martyrdom Of Joseph Smith

I have done a great deal of genealogy in and out of Missouri and Illinois. While I have not developed any LDS ancestors, there are many significant and interesting historical tracts in Missouri and also Illinois but mainly Missouri. And of course you cannot leave out the other seven states that border Missouri. This state was part of the 1803 Louisiana Purchase and was admitted as a state in 1821.

During the time that Joseph Smith was organizing the LDS Church and The City of Nauvoo, many other people had moved into the area and were organizing communities and industry/farming. This area was becoming vastly populated. There was a "Run" to bring slavery into Missouri and Kansas during this time.

Many Saints who immigrated into America during this time brought wealth with them as did other settlers to the area. Some of those settlers migrating especially from the southern states/territories desired to build up a status of monarchy/royalty.

The state of Missouri is significant because it is the crossroads of America. It was at that time believed that those who ruled Missouri would rule America. There were many in the area who were contemplating or being influenced to become the next US President.

With the state of Missouri being equally divided southern/northern, it was most certain that the Saints were sympathizers of the north. Having Joseph Smith as a US President was viewed as a political threat toward what would become the Civil War.

I do not think that anyone can go any further with the LDS Church accounts that led to the murder of Joseph Smith and I don't agree that it is an isolated religious martyrdom. The LDS Church and Joseph Smith were known about throughout the U.S. and the world.

But it is also the never ending story because you do have to take into account the satire of the religious movement in Missouri. The LDS Church is the only religion that has been organized on American Soil. All the others came from other countries. And you cannot neglect that at least 20 religious organizations from throughout the world have headquartered themselves in Missouri. And that a great number of religious conflicts have been fought in Missouri.

I should add that there is a great deal more history that connects to the LDS Church and Joseph Smith.

[Elphaba]

<snip>

During the time that Joseph Smith was organizing the LDS Church and The City of Nauvoo, many other people had moved into the area and were organizing communities and industry/farming. This area was becoming vastly populated. There was a "Run" to bring slavery into Missouri and Kansas during this time.

Many Saints who immigrated into America during this time brought wealth with them as did other settlers to the area.

”Many” is incorrect. The majority of immigrant Saints were poor and it put a huge economic strain on the burgeoning church.

<snip>

With the state of Missouri being equally divided southern/northern, it was most certain that the Saints were sympathizers of the north. Having Joseph Smith as a US President was viewed as a political threat toward what would become the Civil War.

Are you talking about Missouri or Illinois? The Church’s position on slavery was different in Missouri than it was in Illinois. In Missouri, the Church came out against slavery, but when there was a backlash, it claimed it had no position on it.

In Illinois, where Joseph announced his candidacy for POTUS, he was clearly anti-slavery and stuck with that position. So I assume you are talking about Illinois when you write Missouri.

I do not think that anyone can go any further with the LDS Church accounts that led to the murder of Joseph Smith and I don't agree that it is an isolated religious martyrdom.

Are you saying Joseph was murdered because he was a candidate for POTUS and was anti-slavery? That theory has been debunked as too simplistic. However, I do know a lot of people share it.

The LDS Church and Joseph Smith were known about throughout the U.S. and the world.

The entire US did not know about Joseph, though much of it did, and the “world,” knew nothing about Joseph, other than miniscule little blips here and there where missionaries had been.

But it is also the never ending story because you do have to take into account the satire of the religious movement in Missouri.

The “satire” of the religious movement. . . .” What are you talking about?

The LDS Church is the only religion that has been organized on American Soil. All the others came from other countries.

No it isn’t, and no they did not. First you have all of your Native American religions that were organized on American soil.

Then you have your Christian-based religions: Jehovah’s Witnesses, Adventists, and Christians Scientists to name a few.

Then there is Unitarianism, and the Church of Scientology.

And you cannot neglect that at least 20 religious organizations from throughout the world have headquartered themselves in Missouri. And that a great number of religious conflicts have been fought in Missouri.

Other than the Mormon War, what religious conflicts are you aware of?

I should add that there is a great deal more history that connects to the LDS Church and Joseph Smith.

Of course there is, but I'd be interested in an example to see where you're going with this if you'd care to give me one. I'm not being sarcastic; I really would like one.

Could you also please explain in a paragraph what your point is with this post. I sincerely would appreciate it.

Elphaba

[Snow]

Hi Snow: The Martyrdom Of Joseph Smith

I have done a great deal of genealogy in and out of Missouri and Illinois. While I have not developed any LDS ancestors, there are many significant and interesting historical tracts in Missouri and also Illinois but mainly Missouri. And of course you cannot leave out the other seven states that border Missouri. This state was part of the 1803 Louisiana Purchase and was admitted as a state in 1821.

During the time that Joseph Smith was organizing the LDS Church and The City of Nauvoo, many other people had moved into the area and were organizing communities and industry/farming. This area was becoming vastly populated. There was a "Run" to bring slavery into Missouri and Kansas during this time.

Many Saints who immigrated into America during this time brought wealth with them as did other settlers to the area. Some of those settlers migrating especially from the southern states/territories desired to build up a status of monarchy/royalty.

The state of Missouri is significant because it is the crossroads of America. It was at that time believed that those who ruled Missouri would rule America. There were many in the area who were contemplating or being influenced to become the next US President.

With the state of Missouri being equally divided southern/northern, it was most certain that the Saints were sympathizers of the north. Having Joseph Smith as a US President was viewed as a political threat toward what would become the Civil War.

I do not think that anyone can go any further with the LDS Church accounts that led to the murder of Joseph Smith and I don't agree that it is an isolated religious martyrdom. The LDS Church and Joseph Smith were known about throughout the U.S. and the world.

But it is also the never ending story because you do have to take into account the satire of the religious movement in Missouri. The LDS Church is the only religion that has been organized on American Soil. All the others came from other countries. And you cannot neglect that at least 20 religious organizations from throughout the world have headquartered themselves in Missouri. And that a great number of religious conflicts have been fought in Missouri.

I should add that there is a great deal more history that connects to the LDS Church and Joseph Smith.

Hi Annabelli,

You raise some interesting points. I see that El has responded with a few worthwhile questions.

To one of your points: The LDS Church is typically seen as the MOST American of all new movements and the most successful of the American religions, not the only.

Thanks

[Annabelli]

Elphaba wrote: The entire US did not know about Joseph, though much of it did, and the “world,” knew nothing about Joseph, other than miniscule little blips here and there where missionaries had been.

Pope Gregory XVI in particular addressed issues on both the American LDS Church and Joseph Smith and the Persia Bahai Faith and Baha'ullah.

[Elphaba]

Elphaba wrote: The entire US did not know about Joseph, though much of it did, and the “world,” knew nothing about Joseph, other than miniscule little blips here and there where missionaries had been.

Pope Gregory XVI in particular addressed issues on both the American LDS Church and Joseph Smith and the Persia Bahai Faith and Baha'ullah.

I admit this is something I know nothing about.

Would you please provide a reference as I've done a Google Search and nothing came up. I'm still looking through my books, but so far have come up with nothing there either.

Thanks,

Elphaba

[Snow]

Elphaba wrote: The entire US did not know about Joseph, though much of it did, and the “world,” knew nothing about Joseph, other than miniscule little blips here and there where missionaries had been.

Pope Gregory XVI in particular addressed issues on both the American LDS Church and Joseph Smith and the Persia Bahai Faith and Baha'ullah.

There were a good number of newspaper articles from the East Coast, many of them positive, about Joseph Smith and his movement. I don't know how much your average citizen knew of JS though.

As I recall Dostoevsky supposedly had somethings to say on the matter.

[Annabelli]

Alexis de Tocqueville, French political thinker and historian, known for his Democracy in America, and the influence it had on the world.

Lightning out of HeavenAlexis de Tocqueville, in these same years, recorded how he “had seen ..... Joseph Smith, History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, ed. ...

magazine.byu.edu/viewarticle.php?a=1851 - 34k - Cached - Similar pages

[Elphaba]

As I recall Dostoevsky supposedly had somethings to say on the matter.

It was Tolstoy.

The Mormon people teach the American religion; their principles teach the people not only of Heaven and its attendant glories, but how to live so that their social and economic relations with each other are placed on a sound basis. If the people follow the teachings of this Church, nothing can stop their progress--it will be limitless. There have been great movements started in the past but they have died or been modified before they reached maturity. If Mormonism is able to endure, unmodified, until it reaches the third and fourth generations, it is destined to become the greatest power the world has ever known."

– Count Leo Tolstoi, quoted in A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, p 435–36

[Elphaba]

Alexis de Tocqueville, French political thinker and historian, known for his Democracy in America, and the influence it had on the world.

Lightning out of HeavenAlexis de Tocqueville, in these same years, recorded how he “had seen ..... Joseph Smith, History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, ed. ...

magazine.byu.edu/viewarticle.php?a=1851 - 34k - Cached - Similar pages

I don't know what your intention was but you wrote your post as if de Tocqueville was speaking of Joseph Smith. He was not. The following is de Tocqueville's sentence as Givens used it:

"Alexis de Tocqueville, in these same years, recorded how he “had seen the spirit of religion and the spirit of freedom almost always move in contrary directions.”5 In Joseph Smith, religion and freedom found their first perfect, seamless synthesis. For it was into this environment that Joseph introduced a reinvented story of human origins, nature, and potential. And in the greatest intellectual fusion of his age, Joseph argued that the majesty of God does not exist at the expense of the dignity of man.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Clearly you can see Givens was describing those attributes which made it possible for Joseph to begin his church.

So I'm not sure what your point is in posting it here.

In addition, I'm still waiting for your reference regarding:

"Pope Gregory XVI in particular addressed issues on both the American LDS Church and Joseph Smith and the Persia Bahai Faith and Baha'ullah," from your previous posts.

Thanks,

Elphaba

[Annabelli]

My point is that LDS Members who believe that Joseph Smith is a Prophet of God cannot set limitations on the Restoration of the gospel or the Church. Nor can we set limitations regarding his assassination.