Holy Spirit And Jesus Progression To Godhood?

[AnthonyB]

If following questions are nonsensical please pardon my ignorance, I'm still trying to grasp your views.

It is a little like meeting cousins from overseas, some family traits but the language and customs are all different.

If physical embodiment is necessary for being fully God? How did the Holy Spirit(sorry I can't remember if you use Ghost or Spirit for Him) , the third personage of the Godhead acheive being God?

If Jesus was the creator(organizer) of the world and was God before he was born, how did he acheive that? Was it just from being first born?

[CrimsonKairos]

It was from being perfectly obedient and meriting a fulness of priesthood authority and power that we refer to with the title "God."

When LDS use the word "God," they usually are referring to our Father in Heaven or Jesus Christ, but we use the word "God" as a title and not as a name per se. Sort of like calling someone "Doctor." We see godhood as an "office" or "position," not a descriptor of a special type of essence or substance fundamentally different from our own.

Having a physical body obviously wasn't necessary to attain Godhood for Jesus or the Spirit. However, the LDS teaching is that without a resurrected, exalted tangible body of flesh and bone (not blood), we cannot experience a fulness of joy. See below:

For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy. (D&C 93:33-34)

[AnthonyB]

It was from being perfectly obedient and meriting a fulness of priesthood authority and power that we refer to with the title "God."

When LDS use the word "God," they usually are referring to our Father in Heaven or Jesus Christ, but we use the word "God" as a title and not as a name per se. Sort of like calling someone "Doctor." We see godhood as an "office" or "position," not a descriptor of a special type of essence or substance fundamentally different from our own.

Having a physical body obviously wasn't necessary to attain Godhood for Jesus or the Spirit. However, the LDS teaching is that without a resurrected, exalted tangible body of flesh and bone (not blood), we cannot experience a fulness of joy. See below:

For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy. (D&C 93:33-34)

Thank you, that makes sense. It also helped explain another question I had that couldn't make sense of.

Since Jesus, although in very nature God, did not consider equality to be grasped, why do LDS aspire to be God. I always thought the idea of the gospel was to aim to be the janitor in heaven, so that when I arrived Jesus would be able to suprise me with a better spot at His table. (The whole first will be last, the leaders will be servant thing.) However (I hope this isn't wrong) what you LDS are thinking is that you want to learn to be perfectly in submission to God, so that you become worthy of the title of God like Jesus was.

[Gaia]

If following questions are nonsensical please pardon my ignorance, I'm still trying to grasp your views.

It is a little like meeting cousins from overseas, some family traits but the language and customs are all different.

If physical embodiment is necessary for being fully God? How did the Holy Spirit(sorry I can't remember if you use Ghost or Spirit for Him) , the third personage of the Godhead acheive being God?

If Jesus was the creator(organizer) of the world and was God before he was born, how did he acheive that? Was it just from being first born?

GAIA:

Hi There, Anthony --

NEVER be afraid or ashamed to ask a question; IMO, the only "wrong" question is the one left unasked!

I think this is a doctrine many LDS have a LOT of trouble with -- they try so hard to refute the traditional idea of the Trinity, that they frequently deny a valid, important element of LDS doctrine: that by virtue of the "Indwelling" relationship which Jesus has with God the FAther, he IS *BOTH* "the Father" and "the Son" -- and NOT just because they "agree" with each other a lot, or because they have a lot of things in common (two of the frequently expressed but WRONG explanations).

The LDS (Book of Mormon) Prophet Abinadi taught:

"I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.

And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son -— the Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—and they [i.e., the indwelling mind, glory, and power of the Father tabernacled in the flesh as the Son] are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.

And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people. . . . Yea, even so he shall be led, crucified, and slain, the flesh becoming subject even unto death, the will of the Son [i.e., Christ's will as pertaining to the flesh] being swallowed up in the will of the Father [i.e., the will of the indwelling intelligence of the Father].

And thus God breaketh the bands of death. . . .

God himself came down among men in the person of the great Redeemer. Since the Son without the glory and power of the Father is not God, it follows that it was Christ as the Father and the Son who manifested Himself among men. Because he dwelt in the flesh He was the Son, for He was subordinate to His Father in acquiring the endowments of physical life.

But He was conceived by the power of God, and thereby the divine nature of the Father, Elohim, was planted in embryo within Him on earth.

From Hyrum Andrus, BYU Professor Emeritus of LDS history and doctrine:

"Christ's glory does not possess a separate identity apart from Himself. Instead, it is an integral part of His divine Being—a manifestation of His attributes and powers.

Such attributes, said the First Presidency and many of the Twelve in Brigham Young's day, "never can be manifest in any world except through organized beings." fn Hence, Latter-day Saints worship a personal, tangible God, not just an all-pervading essence.

On the other hand, they are taught to worship a God of glory, whose divine intelligence and power is as much a part of Him as magnetic powers are part of a magnet. Without His glory, Christ would not be God, even as a magnet without magnetic properties would not be a magnet.

Furthermore, because Christ is a Being of glory, He possesses a nature and power that unglorified being do not possess. And thereby He has a relationship with the universe that unglorified beings cannot have or fully appreciate. Like a magnet, Christ extends Himself by His glory beyond the limits of His tangible body to fill the immensity of space, so that the organized cosmos becomes His tabernacle.

Similarly, because Christ is endowed with the fulness of His Father's glory, the Father is in Him and He is in the Father. fn

In his Lectures on Faith, Joseph Smith emphasized that the full intelligence and power of the Father centers in the Son, causing both Beings to possess,... the same mind, the same wisdom, glory, power, and fulness—filling all in all; the Son being filled with the fulness of the mind, glory, ad power; or, in other words, the spirit, glory, and power, and the same kingdom, sitting at the right hand of power, in the express image and likeness of the Father, mediator for man, being filled with the fulness of the mind of the Father; or, in other words, the Spirit of tthe Father. fn

In the quotation above, the word "mind" is significantly equated with the word "spirit." And the "mind of the Father" is made synonymous with the "Spirit of the Father," and refers to the quickening glory that dwells in both the Father and the Son.

Since the fulness of the Father's glory or divine intelligence dwells in Christ, the Son possesses the same mind or spirit as the Father, being quickened in the Father and by the Father. Their relationship in glory bears some analogy to an electrical circuit, with the electricity passing through two great poles or centers of power.

But here the power element consists of the full forces of life, light, truth, and Spirit in the universe. The fulness of these divine powers of intelligence that center in the Father is extended to the Son, to quicken and endow the Son with the "mind, glory and power" of the Father. Thereby, the two beings are made one, each possessing the same spirit or mind.

By this means, the Father is in the Son and the Son in the Father.

In his divine relationship with the Father, Christ does not lose His personal identity or will. The inherent nature of the intelligence with which He is endowed prevents such an eventuality.

It is a law of existence that all truth is independent within its sphere, as all intelligence also. fn

By receiving the Father's glory, the Son therefore became fully independent, possessing all truth and power in the Father's kingdom.

Furthermore, the natural affinity that light has to light and that truth has to truth promotes union between the Father and the Son, making them perfectly one. Union, not domination, is thus achieved.

The Father and the Son possess two individual wills, but because of His love for truth, the Son voluntarily subordinates Himself to the Father, that the Father's intelligence and power might dwell in Him.

It is largely a matter of communication and agreement. This the Prophet stressed, while commenting on certain biblical texts:"I am agreed with the Father and the Father is agreed with me, and we are agreed as one." The Greek shows that it should be agreed. "Father, I pray for them whach thou hast given me out of the world, and not for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word, that they all may be agreed with us," and all come to dwell in unity, and in all the glory and everlasting burnings of the Gods. fnJesus willingly subordinated Himself to His Father in three major relationships to receive the organizations and endowments through which He was given a fulness of the Father's glory.

First, the basic ego of life or intelligence within Him was organized through the process of birth into a spirit person. He thus became a son of God, the Firstborn among other spirit children of the Father. fn

And through obedience to the Father's will, He was endowed with great glory and power, sufficient to create and sustain life on this and other spheres. Again, Jesus was subordinate to the Father in acquiring a body of flesh and bones; and as the Only Begotten of the Father, He was "the Son, because of the flesh." fn

Finally, Christ was subordinate to the Father in acquiring the divine powers of truth and light by which He was glorified and arose to the status of Deity. He partook largely of these powers before coming to mortality, but only when He came forth from the grave and ascended to the Father did He receive them in their fulness. And by these endowments, He became the Son of God in glory. As expressed in a revelation: "He was called the Son of God, because he received not of the fullness at the first." fn

Because Christ is subordinate to His Father in glory, He is called the Son. But having received a fulness of that divine intelligence, Christ stands as the center of life, of truth, and of power for all things that have been committed into His hands. In this divine relationship, He is the Father of all life. Thus, Christ, the Son, is the God and the Father of all things, even "the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth, and all things which in them are." fn

In this light, Isaiah looked forward to Christ's coming and foretold that a son would be born whose name would be called, "Wonderful, Counselor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father." fn

Of Himself Christ declared:... whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do good is of me; for good cometh of none save it be of me. I am the same that leadeth men to all good . ... For behold, I am the Father, I am the light, and the life, and the truth of the world. fnWe often speak of Christ in His relationship with His Father.

Here He is the Son, in the three ways listed above. But more than this, we must understand Christ's relationship to man and to all things associated with this earth and its heaven. Here, Jesus is the center of life, even the God and the Father of all things.

Children are alive in Christ, being redeemed of Him as their Father. But when they become accountable before Him and transgress His divine laws, they must be born again into a new spiritual relationship with Him, thereby becoming the sons and daughters of Christ through the power of His Gospel. To the brother of Jared, the pre-mortal Christ explained:Behold I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have light, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters. fn

Thus, the fatherhood of Christ is expressed in several ways, each of which is derived from the fact that Christ is the Father because, having received a fulness of His Father's glory, He manifests the powers of divine glory unto others.

In a revelation he explained: "I am ... the Father because he [His Father] gave me of his fulness." fn

By virtue of His divine endowments, Christ manifested Himself unto man as both the Father and the Son, or, simultaneously as the Father and the Son. To the brother of Jared He first appeared in the office of the Son and declared: "Never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man believed in me as thou hast." fn

As the Father, He manifested Himself to Enoch and revealed His future as Christ on earth and His ascension into heaven. Enoch exclaimed to the Personage before him: "Forasmuch as thou are God, and I know thee, and thou hast sworn unto me, and commanded me that I should ask in the name of thine Only Begotten; ... wherefore, I ask thee [the Father] if thou [the Son] wilt not come again on the earth."

Enoch then beheld "the day of the coming of the Son of Man, in the last days, to dwell on the earth in righteousness for the space of a thousand years." fn

In the sense of possessing the eternal fulness, there are but two Beings who control all things in our universe. Wrote the Prophet:There are two personages who constitute the great, matchless, governing and supreme power over all things, by whom all things were created and made, that are created and made, whether visible or invisible, whether in heaven, on earth, or in the earth, under the earth, or throughout the immensity of space. They are the Father and the Son. fn

For all things related to man, the power and intelligence of both of these divine Beings is centered in Christ. This includes the power manifest through that Personage called the Holy Ghost. Though He is associated with the Father and the Son, the Holy Ghost is a Person of Spirit Tabernacle only, and as such cannot possess a fulness of eternal glory and power.

He is not an executive of similar power to Christ, but is referred to as "the witness or Testator." fn

Though He speaks for the Father and the Son, His mission is to witness, teach, testify, and dispense the truths and powers of that Being unto men. fn

Jesus, Himself explained:He [the Comforter] shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

The Book of Mormon records the fact that Christ is the son of a divine Being, to whom He prayed as His Father and to whom man should also address his prayers, in the name of Christ. fn

The Nephite Scripture also gives evidence of the existence of the Holy Ghost as the third Person in the Godhead. fn

But in its basic doctrine of God, the Book of Mormon stresses that Christ, the Son, is man's God and Father.

This doctrine was illustrated very well when Zeezrom inquired of Amulek: "Thou sayest there is a true and living God?"And Amulek replied, "Yea, there is a true and living God."

Zeezrom then extended his inquiry further with the question: "Is there more than one God?"To this Amulek declared pointedly, "No."

And when questioned on how he knew of such things, Amulek replied: "An angel hath made them known unto me."

This answer should have settled the matter, but Zeezrom had now arrived at the real point of issue. So he came promptly to the problem: "Who is he that shall come? It is the Son of God?"And, unhesitatingly, Amulek said unto him, "Yea."

But the apparent contradiction was clarified when Zeezrom finally asked, "Is the Son of God the very Eternal Father?"Amulek then explained the Nephite concept of God, stating of Christ, "Yea, he is the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth, and all things which in them are; he is the beginning and the end, the first and the last; and he shall come into the world to redeem his people . ..." fn

Continuing on the same theme, Amulek implied that the fulness of the Godhead is centered in Christ, who manifests Himself through all the offices therein. Thus, he declared that in the judgment, men will be "arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works." fn

The phrase "is one God," as distinct from "are one God," emphasizes that the singular person, Christ, manifests Himself through the offices of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. For Amulek to have meant otherwise would have been a denial of his positive assertion that there is but one God. It would also do violence to the consistent doctrine taught in the Book of Mormon that Christ is "the great Jehovah, the Eternal judge of both quick and dead." fn Amulek himself refers to Christ as God, into whose hands the judgment is committed. fn There is no support in the Nephite Scripture for the idea that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, as three separate and distinct persons, will sit to judge the world.Thus, "God Himself" fn came to earth "to do the will, both of the Father and of the Son." fn He was "the Father, because he was conceived by the power of God" fn and because the Father gave him "of his fullness." fn

But Christ was also "The Son," said He, "because I was in the world and made flesh my tabernacle, and dwelt among the sons of men." fn When Philip failed to understand that by right of the indwelling intelligence which Christ received from His Eternal Sire, He was the Father, Jesus exclaimed:Have I been so long with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? He that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself; but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. fn

This doctrine seems to have been better understood by the Nephite prophets. Abinadi made its classic exposition in the following statement:... I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people. And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—And they [the Father and the Son in Christ] are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth. And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people . ... Yea, even so he shall be led, crucified, and slain, the flesh becoming subject even unto death, the will of the Son [the flesh] being swallowed up in the will of the Father [the Spirit of indwelling intelligence]. And thus God breaketh the bonds of death. ... fn

Christ's divine role as the Father and the Son is also emphasized in the Inspired Revision of the Bible. By the spirit of revelation, Joseph Smith corrected a statement by Christ to read that no man knoweth "the Father, save the Son, and they to whom the Son will reveal himself, they shall see the Father also." fnAgain, even more pointedly, Jesus declared in another passage: "All things are delivered to me of my Father; and no man knoweth that the Son is the Father, and the Father is the Son, but him to whom he Son will reveal it." fn

(Hyrum L. Andrus, Christ the Son—Our God and Father [1966], 1 - 2.)

The glory of God cannot be developed in its fulness in a person in mortality. Only when spirit and element are inseparably connected can one receive a fullness of joy, fn which joy is a by-product of a fulness of divine intelligence and power. Hence, Jesus came to earth, died, and was raised from the dead: that He might descend below all things and thus comprehend all things; that the glory and power of the Father might be centered fully in Him; that He might ascend up on high and be in all and through all things, the light of truth, even the God of the earth, having power not merely to create and sustain all things but to redeem and glorify them. Having fulfilled these purposes concerning Himself, He declared: "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." fn And Paul later wrote: "For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily." fn

Christ's glory does not possess a separate identity apart from Himself. Instead, it is an integral part of His divine Being—a manifestation of His attributes and powers. Such attributes, said the First Presidency and many of the Twelve in Brigham Young's day, "never can be manifest in any world except through organized beings." fn Hence, Latter-day Saints worship a personal, tangible God, not just an all-pervading essence. On the other hand, they are taught to worship a God of glory, whose divine intelligence and power is as much a part of Him as magnetic powers are part of a magnet. Without His glory, Christ would not be God, even as a magnet without magnetic properties would not be a magnet. Furthermore, because Christ is a Being of glory, He possesses a nature and power that unglorified being do not possess. And thereby He has a relationship with the universe that unglorified beings cannot have or fully appreciate. Like a magnet, Christ extends Himself by His glory beyond the limits of His tangible body to fill the immensity of space, so that the organized cosmos becomes His tabernacle.

Similarly, because Christ is endowed with the fulness of His Father's glory, the Father is in Him and He is in the Father. fn In his Lectures on Faith, Joseph Smith emphasized that the full intelligence and power of the Father centers in the Son, causing both Beings to possess,

... the same mind, the same wisdom, glory, power, and fulness—filling all in all; the Son being filled with the fulness of the mind, glory, ad power; or, in other words, the spirit, glory, and power, and the same kingdom, sitting at the right hand of power, in the express image and likeness of the Father, mediator for man, being filled with the fulness of the mind of the Father; or, in other words, the Spirit of tthe Father. fn

In the quotation above, the word "mind" is significantly equated with the word "spirit." And the "mind of the Father" is made synonymous with the "Spirit of the Father," and refers to the quickening glory that dwells in both the Father and the Son. Since the fulness of the Father's glory or divine intelligence dwells in Christ, the Son possesses the same mind or spirit as the Father, being quickened in the Father and by the Father. Their relationship in glory bears some analogy to an electrical circuit, with the electricity passing through two great poles or centers of power. But here the power element consists of the full forces of life, light, truth, and Spirit in the universe. The fulness of these divine powers of intelligence that center in the Father is extended to the Son, to quicken and endow the Son with the "mind, glory and power" of the Father. Thereby, the two beings are made one, each possessing the same spirit or mind. By this means, the Father is in the Son and the Son in the Father.

In his divine relationship with the Father, Christ does not lose His personal identity or will. The inherent nature of the intelligence with which He is endowed prevents such an eventuality. It is a law of existence that all truth is independent within its sphere, as all intelligence also. fn By receiving the Father's glory, the Son therefore became fully independent, possessing all truth and power in the Father's kingdom. Furthermore, the natural affinity that light has to light and that truth has to truth promotes union between the Father and the Son, making them perfectly one. Union, not domination, is thus achieved. The Father and the Son possess two individual wills, but because of His love for truth, the Son voluntarily subordinates Himself to the Father, that the Father's intelligence and power might dwell in Him. It is largely a matter of communication and agreement. This the Prophet stressed, while commenting on certain biblical texts:

"I am agreed with the Father and the Father is agreed with me, and we are agreed as one." The Greek shows that it should be agreed. "Father, I pray for them whach thou hast given me out of the world, and not for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word, that they all may be agreed with us," and all come to dwell in unity, and in all the glory and everlasting burnings of the Gods. fn

Jesus willingly subordinated Himself to His Father in three major relationships to receive the organizations and endowments through which He was given a fulness of the Father's glory. First, the basic ego of life or intelligence within Him was organized through the process of birth into a spirit person. He thus became a son of God, the Firstborn among other spirit children of the Father. fn And through obedience to the Father's will, He was endowed with great glory and power, sufficient to create and sustain life on this and other spheres. Again, Jesus was subordinate to the Father in acquiring a body of flesh and bones; and as the Only Begotten of the Father, He was "the Son, because of the flesh." fn Finally, Christ was subordinate to the Father in acquiring the divine powers of truth and light by which He was glorified and arose to the status of Deity. He partook largely of these powers before coming to mortality, but only when He came forth from the grave and ascended to the Father did He receive them in their fulness. And by these endowments, He became the Son of God in glory. As expressed in a revelation: "He was called the Son of God, because he received not of the fullness at the first." fn

Because Christ is subordinate to His Father in glory, He is called the Son. But having received a fulness of that divine intelligence, Christ stands as the center of life, of truth, and of power for all things that have been committed into His hands. In this divine relationship, He is the Father of all life. Thus, Christ, the Son, is the God and the Father of all things, even "the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth, and all things which in them are." fn In this light, Isaiah looked forward to Christ's coming and foretold that a son would be born whose name would be called, "Wonderful, Counselor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father." fn Of Himself Christ declared:

... whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do good is of me; for good cometh of none save it be of me. I am the same that leadeth men to all good . ... For behold, I am the Father, I am the light, and the life, and the truth of the world. fn

We often speak of Christ in His relationship with His Father. Here He is the Son, in the three ways listed above. But more than this, we must understand Christ's relationship to man and to all things associated with this earth and its heaven. Here, Jesus is the center of life, even the God and the Father of all things. Children are alive in Christ, being redeemed of Him as their Father. But when they become accountable before Him and transgress His divine laws, they must be born again into a new spiritual relationship with Him, thereby becoming the sons and daughters of Christ through the power of His Gospel. To the brother of Jared, the pre-mortal Christ explained:

Behold I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have light, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters. fn

Thus, the fatherhood of Christ is expressed in several ways, each of which is derived from the fact that Christ is the Father because, having received a fulness of His Father's glory, He manifests the powers of divine glory unto others. In a revelation he explained: "I am ... the Father because he [His Father] gave me of his fulness." fn

By virtue of His divine endowments, Christ manifested Himself unto man as both the Father and the Son, or, simultaneously as the Father and the Son. To the brother of Jared He first appeared in the office of the Son and declared: "Never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man believed in me as thou hast." fn As the Father, He manifested Himself to Enoch and revealed His future as Christ on earth and His ascension into heaven. Enoch exclaimed to the Personage before him: "Forasmuch as thou are God, and I know thee, and thou hast sworn unto me, and commanded me that I should ask in the name of thine Only Begotten; ... wherefore, I ask thee [the Father] if thou [the Son] wilt not come again on the earth." Enoch then beheld "the day of the coming of the Son of Man, in the last days, to dwell on the earth in righteousness for the space of a thousand years." fn

In the sense of possessing the eternal fulness, there are but two Beings who control all things in our universe. Wrote the Prophet:

There are two personages who constitute the great, matchless, governing and supreme power over all things, by whom all things were created and made, that are created and made, whether visible or invisible, whether in heaven, on earth, or in the earth, under the earth, or throughout the immensity of space. They are the Father and the Son. fn

For all things related to man, the power and intelligence of both of these divine Beings is centered in Christ. This includes the power manifest through that Personage called the Holy Ghost. Though He is associated with the Father and the Son, the Holy Ghost is a Person of Spirit Tabernacle only, and as such cannot possess a fulness of eternal glory and power. He is not an executive of similar power to Christ, but is referred to as "the witness or Testator." fn Though He speaks for the Father and the Son, His mission is to witness, teach, testify, and dispense the truths and powers of that Being unto men. fn Jesus, Himself explained:

He [the Comforter] shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. fn

As a personal Spirit, the Holy Ghost is associated with Christ and reveals the truths and powers of Christ unto man. Thus, Christ declared in a revelation concerning Edward Partridge: "I will lay my hand upon you by the hand of my servant Sidney Rigdon, and you shall receive my Spirit, the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter, which shall teach you the peaceable things of the kingdom." fn The companionship of the Holy Ghost that is promised to worthy Saints who partake of the Lord's Supper is also referred to as Christ's Spirit. fn And the Book of Mormon asserts that those spiritual endowments commonly called the gifts of the Holy Ghost "come by the Spirit of Christ." fn

Thus, "God Himself" fn came to earth "to do the will, both of the Father and of the Son." fn He was "the Father, because he was conceived by the power of God" fn and because the Father gave him "of his fullness." fn But Christ was also "The Son," said He, "because I was in the world and made flesh my tabernacle, and dwelt among the sons of men." fn When Philip failed to understand that by right of the indwelling intelligence which Christ received from His Eternal Sire, He was the Father, Jesus exclaimed:

Have I been so long with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? He that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself; but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. fn

This doctrine seems to have been better understood by the Nephite prophets. Abinadi made its classic exposition in the following statement:

... I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people. And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—And they [the Father and the Son in Christ] are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth. And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people . ... Yea, even so he shall be led, crucified, and slain, the flesh becoming subject even unto death, the will of the Son [the flesh] being swallowed up in the will of the Father [the Spirit of indwelling intelligence]. And thus God breaketh the bonds of death. ... fn

Christ's divine role as the Father and the Son is also emphasized in the Inspired Revision of the Bible. By the spirit of revelation, Joseph Smith corrected a statement by Christ to read that no man knoweth "the Father, save the Son, and they to whom the Son will reveal himself, they shall see the Father also." fn

Again, even more pointedly, Jesus declared in another passage: "All things are delivered to me of my Father; and no man knoweth that the Son is the Father, and the Father is the Son, but him to whom he Son will reveal it." fn May God bless all men to be worthy of the revelation of that truth, as necessary knowledge to be acquired along the pathway to eternal life.

(Hyrum L. Andrus, Christ the Son—Our God and Father [1966], .)

Having partaken of the divine nature of the Man of Holiness, Jesus was appointed to develop the living attributes and powers of the Father's glory in others. For this reason He became both God and Father (that is, the Father in certain relationships of life) to man.

But in the divine plan of life, Christ is the Son of God in spirit life, in physical life, and in the attributes and powers of eternal life. Jesus therefore may be referred to properly as both the Father and the Son; and He manifests Himself to man both as the Father and the Son.

Thus Christ was the Father and the Son; and they -— the mind, glory, and power of the Father embodied in the flesh as Christ -— were one God, even the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth. Here is the one God to whom reference is made throughout the canon of scripture.

I hope this is helpful --

~Gaia

[CrimsonKairos]

I just read the first and last paragraph of that post by Gaia, and my "false doctrine" red flags shot up with alarming speed.

I don't know if she's claiming that Jesus and Heavenly Father are the same person, but if she is, she's misrepresenting LDS doctrine. If she isn't, she's doing a great job of confusing the issue.

Jesus makes possible our spiritual rebirth. When we are "reborn," we are "adopted" as his sons and daughters, and he becomes the "Father" of our salvation. Christ is also the "Father of heaven and earth" because we believe Jesus created all things under the direction of our Heavenly Father. There are other ways that Jesus can be considered the "Father," but nowhere in LDS doctrine is it taught that Jesus and Heavenly Father are the same being.

Again, don't know if that's what Gaia was going for, but I wanted to be sure the official LDS view was explained clearly without personal opinion or false doctrine.

p.s. Yes Anthony, you're correct: LDS want to partake of the Divine Nature, become the kind of being God and Christ are in their desires, attributes, love, unity, etc... and become worthy of godhood through Christ's atonement.

[the_jason]

We believe that God the Father was at one time a man just like we are. He was tested and tried and became God. Jesus was tested and tried as well. It would only make sense, then, that the Holy Ghost was no different, and that his exalted state as a member of the Godhead was to become a spirit that he might dwell within us.

That's my understanding, anyway.

[AnthonyB]

Gaia,

I will print your message out, it is too long to read in one sitting (and too complex). It must have taken hours to write so I'll pay you the courtesy of reading it through. Thank you.

Crimson,

One God. Three persons. I don't think she is trying to make "one person" but to highlight the oneness of God. The creed writers had trouble expressing their thoughts in greek a language far better suited to the task then English.

You seem to see it as one title, with three persons holding that title, but I have glimpses that your recieved teaching actually inlcudes oneness that goes somehow beyond that. (Which is what I think Gaia is trying to say.)

I might say, it is one kind of being that allows three persons to fully share with each other all the attributes and essence of who they are whilstl still remaining three persons. To each have a will but to only also have one will.

[Maureen]

...By this means, the Father is in the Son and the Son in the Father...

This statement is a problem even for Trinitarians.

For a child has been born to us,

a son has been given to us.

He shoulders responsibility

and is called:

Extraordinary Strategist,

Mighty God,

Everlasting Father, 19

Prince of Peace.

(Isaiah 9:6)

19 tn This title must not be taken in an anachronistic Trinitarian sense. (To do so would be theologically problematic, for the “Son” is the messianic king and is distinct in his person from God the “Father.”) Rather, in its original context the title pictures the king as the protector of his people. For a similar use of “father” see Isa 22:21 and Job 29:16. This figurative, idiomatic use of “father” is not limited to the Bible. In a Phoenician inscription (ca. 850-800 b.c.) the ruler Kilamuwa declares: “To some I was a father, to others I was a mother.” In another inscription (ca. 800 b.c.) the ruler Azitawadda boasts that the god Baal made him “a father and a mother” to his people. (See ANET 499-500.) The use of “everlasting” might suggest the deity of the king (as the one who has total control over eternity), but Isaiah and his audience may have understood the term as royal hyperbole emphasizing the king’s long reign or enduring dynasty (for examples of such hyperbolic language used of the Davidic king, see 1 Kgs 1:31; Pss 21:4-6; 61:6-7; 72:5, 17). The New Testament indicates that the hyperbolic language (as in the case of the title “Mighty God”) is literally realized in the ultimate fulfillment of the prophecy, for Jesus will rule eternally.

From the NET Bible.

M.

(Editing to add that I overlooked the preposition in. Although I'm not sure if that changes my initial disagreement with the statement.)

[Traveler]

If following questions are nonsensical please pardon my ignorance, I'm still trying to grasp your views.

It is a little like meeting cousins from overseas, some family traits but the language and customs are all different.

If physical embodiment is necessary for being fully God? How did the Holy Spirit(sorry I can't remember if you use Ghost or Spirit for Him) , the third personage of the Godhead acheive being God?

If Jesus was the creator(organizer) of the world and was God before he was born, how did he acheive that? Was it just from being first born?

Yes you are off into the wild blue yonder of nonsense. This reminds me of my children and their statement that something is totally radical. What is totally radical and how is that different from radical?

Now we must deal with fully G-d and G-d? Perhaps if you would define for me what your understanding of G-d is we can have an intelligent discussion of how Jesus is G-d and the Holy Ghost is G-d.

The Traveler

Since Jesus, although in very nature God, did not consider equality to be grasped, why do LDS aspire to be God. I always thought the idea of the gospel was to aim to be the janitor in heaven, so that when I arrived Jesus would be able to suprise me with a better spot at His table. (The whole first will be last, the leaders will be servant thing.) However (I hope this isn't wrong) what you LDS are thinking is that you want to learn to be perfectly in submission to God, so that you become worthy of the title of God like Jesus was.

Wow this is most interesting - please inform me what it is about G-d that man should not aspire? His love? His compassion? The manner in which he uses power to benefit others? His glory in doing for others? There must be something - what?

The Traveler

[a-train]

I once heard a woman say: 'I want to take the smallest particle of Heaven and just sing praises to God from it. This way, God will get all the glory of Heaven.'

Although the intention worthy and righteous, the notion would lend us to believe that we will give more glory to God in not going to Heaven at all!

Indeed we do not give glory to God in rejecting His gifts, but in accepting them and using them in His service. Imagine the great power and authority given to Moses, the man 'meek above all the men which were upon the face of the earth'. (Num 12:3) Did his power to work signs and wonders, to divide the Red Sea, to lead Israel, to see the face of God, and to give the law somehow detract from God's glory? Did it dishonor God, or take away from His means? Certainly not.

We are not to avoid gifts from God. 'Wherefore, beware lest ye are deceived; and that ye may not be deceived seek ye earnestly the best gifts, always remembering for what they are given.' (D&C 46:8)

And what is the greatest gift of God? D&C 14:7

-a-train

Maureen,

Thanks.

-a-train