Concept of God and Devil

[clbent04]

The War in Heaven

In the Preexistence, before this world was, the Church interprets from the scriptures that there was a War in Heaven (Isaiah 14:12-20).  The War broke out after God the Father asked how His Plan of Salvation should be administered to mankind.  Jesus spoke first saying He would assume the role of a savior.  Then countered Lucifer who proposed to secure salvation for everyone at the expense of taking away man’s free agency or ability to choose.  An ensuing battle commenced and Lucifer was cast out of the presence of God taking with him a third of the host of Heaven (Revelations 12:4-13).

Opposition in All Things

God created Adam and Eve, and, according to some Christian theology, they supposedly would have always remained perfect if God was their only influence.  Along the same thinking, it would appear that since God knew how His plan was to unfold, He essentially needed someone to entice Adam and Eve to go against His will.  As God has created a world with opposition in all things (2 Nephi 2:11), did not the perfect plan require a candidate to become the embodiment of evil to juxtapose a righteous god?  Does God’s perfect plan require someone to assume the role of the Devil?

How Did Lucifer Become the Embodiment of Evil?

Did Lucifer really become the essence of evil when in the Preexitence he proposed an alternative idea to God’s plan?  Was he not a morning star before?  Would acquiring the status of a morning star not require a distinguished level of righteousness at one point in time?  And if he did possess righteous attributes, how does Lucifer’s alternate proposal to God’s plan eliminate him from having any righteous motives at all?  Could he not of simply become a little bit more evil at that point as opposed to automatically crowning himself as the prince of evil for eternity?

Some Christian religions interpret from the Bible that in this life we sin, but we don’t sin on our own.  We are tempted by Lucifer.  We would never rebel on our own.  We have no ability by ourselves to be disobedient to God’s commands.  Satan is to blame for evil influence.  And why is it his fault?  All because of a decision he made possibly millions of years ago?

Doesn’t guilt catch up with all of us eventually?  Wouldn’t Lucifer get tired of being the bad guy after a while?

Moment of Fixation

As Satan can never turn back from evil, God can never turn back from good.  God and Satan prove to us that a moment of fixation occurs at some point.  It is also supposed that everyone will reach this moment of fixation which is usually expected to happen at the end of one’s life.  This moment locks us into a permanent state of the desires we have held closest to us.  Those desires officially mark who we are from then on and we are limited to how we may change (Alma 34:33-35).

Magnitude of Lucifer’s Decisions

For Lucifer to instigate the War in Heaven, consequently taking a third of its host, he did much more than simply propose an alternative plan.  He sought glory for himself, vehemently seeking to destroy God’s Kingdom and all the good it represented.  Undeniably, Lucifer had a perfect knowledge of God’s plan at the time.  He had a perfect understanding of good and evil.  Proposing an alternative plan was much more sinister than it may appear from the surface.  While in this mortal life we may not comprehend, Lucifer knew of the magnitude of his rebellious decision.

Is the Concept of a Devil just as Necessary as the Concept of a Savior for Christianity to Function?

While we are taught that opposition exists in all things, I don’t think having a devil in the scheme of the things is necessary for Christianity to function.  If a devil is needed to tempt us, who tempted Lucifer when he first rebelled against God?  I believe we as imperfect beings can make wrong decisions without the influence of a devil.  The Devil increases the challenge for us to resist temptation, but he is not necessary for God’s plan to go forward.  God’s plan would go forward regardless.

[Grunt]

Necessary to function?  I'm not quite sure what you are looking to discuss.  Many things in scripture, as in life, aren't necessary for things to function.  I don't need 2 kids for my family to function.  I do have them, though.

[clbent04]

11 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Necessary to function?  I'm not quite sure what you are looking to discuss.  Many things in scripture, as in life, aren't necessary for things to function.  I don't need 2 kids for my family to function.  I do have them, though.

There's a lot of talking points on this one. Is the concept of a devil necessary for Christianity to function, how was there no residual goodness left in Lucifer when he transitioned from Morning Star to the representative of all evil, moments of fixation... I just laid out my basic understanding of the subject and want to see what other's might say.  The concept of a God and a Devil has always intrigued me as a central theme in Christianity and the Mormon Church in particular

[Grunt]

I guess I just have a harder time discussing things I know to be true as though they were hypotheticals.  It's like asking me if twins were necessary for me to have a happy family.  I suppose they aren't, but having twins is a factual part of my life so why would I try to discuss an alternate reality with no other point than is an alternate reality possible.

Is the "concept" of a devil necessary for Christianity to function?  Maybe not, but neither is the "concept" of Prophets necessary, but they exist.  

The "concept" of THE God and the devil is central to Christianity because they exist.  Why would they pretend they don't?

[Rob Osborn]

33 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

The War in Heaven

In the Preexistence, before this world was, the Church interprets from the scriptures that there was a War in Heaven (Isaiah 14:12-20).  The War broke out after God the Father asked how His Plan of Salvation should be administered to mankind.  Jesus spoke first saying He would assume the role of a savior.  Then countered Lucifer who proposed to secure salvation for everyone at the expense of taking away man’s free agency or ability to choose.  An ensuing battle commenced and Lucifer was cast out of the presence of God taking with him a third of the host of Heaven (Revelations 12:4-13).

Opposition in All Things

God created Adam and Eve, and, according to some Christian theology, they supposedly would have always remained perfect if God was their only influence.  Along the same thinking, it would appear that since God knew how His plan was to unfold, He essentially needed someone to entice Adam and Eve to go against His will.  As God has created a world with opposition in all things (2 Nephi 2:11), did not the perfect plan require a candidate to become the embodiment of evil to juxtapose a righteous god?  Does God’s perfect plan require someone to assume the role of the Devil?

How Did Lucifer Become the Embodiment of Evil?

Did Lucifer really become the essence of evil when in the Preexitence he proposed an alternative idea to God’s plan?  Was he not a morning star before?  Would acquiring the status of a morning star not require a distinguished level of righteousness at one point in time?  And if he did possess righteous attributes, how does Lucifer’s alternate proposal to God’s plan eliminate him from having any righteous motives at all?  Could he not of simply become a little bit more evil at that point as opposed to automatically crowning himself as the prince of evil for eternity?

Some Christian religions interpret from the Bible that in this life we sin, but we don’t sin on our own.  We are tempted by Lucifer.  We would never rebel on our own.  We have no ability by ourselves to be disobedient to God’s commands.  Satan is to blame for evil influence.  And why is it his fault?  All because of a decision he made possibly millions of years ago?

Doesn’t guilt catch up with all of us eventually?  Wouldn’t Lucifer get tired of being the bad guy after a while?

Moment of Fixation

As Satan can never turn back from evil, God can never turn back from good.  God and Satan prove to us that a moment of fixation occurs at some point.  It is also supposed that everyone will reach this moment of fixation which is usually expected to happen at the end of one’s life.  This moment locks us into a permanent state of the desires we have held closest to us.  Those desires officially mark who we are from then on and we are limited to how we may change (Alma 34:33-35).

Magnitude of Lucifer’s Decisions

For Lucifer to instigate the War in Heaven, consequently taking a third of its host, he did much more than simply propose an alternative plan.  He sought glory for himself, vehemently seeking to destroy God’s Kingdom and all the good it represented.  Undeniably, Lucifer had a perfect knowledge of God’s plan at the time.  He had a perfect understanding of good and evil.  Proposing an alternative plan was much more sinister than it may appear from the surface.  While in this mortal life we may not comprehend, Lucifer knew of the magnitude of his rebellious decision.

Is the Concept of a Devil just as Necessary as the Concept of a Savior for Christianity to Function?

While we are taught that opposition exists in all things, I don’t think having a devil in the scheme of the things is necessary for Christianity to function.  If a devil is needed to tempt us, who tempted Lucifer when he first rebelled against God?  I believe we as imperfect beings can make wrong decisions without the influence of a devil.  The Devil increases the challenge for us to resist temptation, but he is not necessary for God’s plan to go forward.  God’s plan would go forward regardless.

A lot of points to discuss. First thing is that it is only assumed by us that Satans plan was to save us by taking away agency. The scriptures dont actually state this. It states several facts- 1. Satan was a liar at the time he proposed to be the Savior of mankind. 2. He sought the glory of God. 3. He sought to destroy our agency. 4. His will was to lead us captive down to destruction. From these facts it becomes easy to decipher Satans plans. 1. He wasnt going to save anyone. 2. He sought the glory of God but not through righteous means. 3. He sought to rule over us as his captives and that through the process of this sin and captivity our agency is destroyed.

The next point is that the plan was in place before Satan fell and that a Satan is not required as part of mans progress and exaltation. The "natural man" being an enemy to God is the reality that the nature of man and his senses will automatically lead him into sin and disobedience. Having Satan only amplifies that tendecy to fall and stay fallen longer.

 

[clbent04]

10 minutes ago, Grunt said:

I guess I just have a harder time discussing things I know to be true as though they were hypotheticals.  It's like asking me if twins were necessary for me to have a happy family.  I suppose they aren't, but having twins is a factual part of my life so why would I try to discuss an alternate reality with no other point than is an alternate reality possible.

Is the "concept" of a devil necessary for Christianity to function?  Maybe not, but neither is the "concept" of Prophets necessary, but they exist.  

The "concept" of THE God and the devil is central to Christianity because they exist.  Why would they pretend they don't?

I'm questioning if the LDS view on Christianity makes sense considering its view of having a God and a Devil.  And to do that I'd like to know if God knowingly went forth with His creation knowing someone would inevitably assume the role of the Devil.  Is the contrast necessary.  Why Lucifer?  Could it have been anyone?  Was proposing an alternative plan Lucifer's crowning moment as the Devil?  I'd like to better understand these moments of fixation and how no good could ever be found in the Lucifer again 

[Rob Osborn]

4 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

I'm questioning if the LDS view on Christianity makes sense considering its view of having a God and a Devil.  And to do that I'd like to know if God knowingly went forth with His creation knowing someone would inevitably assume the role of the Devil.  Is the contrast necessary.  Why Lucifer?  Could it have been anyone?  Was proposing an alternative plan Lucifer's crowning moment as the Devil?  I'd like to better understand these moments of fixation and how no good could ever be found in the Lucifer again 

I tend to believe that our situation in eternity is a bit of an anomaly. Its not everyday a person in high authority in heaven falls and then becomes an enemy to God. Special circumstances require special plans and special rules. Ours is just that.

[Guest]

Satan's fall was merely the final step. He gradually became more evil just as we do.  The scriptures don't give a play-by-play.  It's just the highlights.

[Rob Osborn]

Somehow, there is a line, that when crossed, is a point of no return. The scriptures speak of a future point where Satan will be destroyed. However we are to take as to what this means, I think it safe to say that part of the suffering of the sons of perdition is the acknowledgement that they are on a countdown in time to an actual physical end to their existance.

[person0]

4 hours ago, clbent04 said:

Satan is to blame for evil influence. . .

No one tempted Lucifer.  There is no third party evil deity.  Lucifer made his own choice.  If Lucifer chose the path of evil and rejected God of his own volition, there is nothing to suggest that we can't also do the same, regardless of Satan't existence.  We had agency in the pre-mortal realm and we have agency now.  Evil is anything that is contrary to God's perfection, it exists as an abstract concept on it's own, regardless of whether or not there is a being that personifies or acts as its purveyor.

[CV75]

16 hours ago, clbent04 said:

The War in Heaven

In the Preexistence, before this world was, the Church interprets from the scriptures that there was a War in Heaven (Isaiah 14:12-20).  The War broke out after God the Father asked how His Plan of Salvation should be administered to mankind.  Jesus spoke first saying He would assume the role of a savior.  Then countered Lucifer who proposed to secure salvation for everyone at the expense of taking away man’s free agency or ability to choose.  An ensuing battle commenced and Lucifer was cast out of the presence of God taking with him a third of the host of Heaven (Revelations 12:4-13).

Opposition in All Things

God created Adam and Eve, and, according to some Christian theology, they supposedly would have always remained perfect if God was their only influence.  Along the same thinking, it would appear that since God knew how His plan was to unfold, He essentially needed someone to entice Adam and Eve to go against His will.  As God has created a world with opposition in all things (2 Nephi 2:11), did not the perfect plan require a candidate to become the embodiment of evil to juxtapose a righteous god?  Does God’s perfect plan require someone to assume the role of the Devil?

How Did Lucifer Become the Embodiment of Evil?

Did Lucifer really become the essence of evil when in the Preexitence he proposed an alternative idea to God’s plan?  Was he not a morning star before?  Would acquiring the status of a morning star not require a distinguished level of righteousness at one point in time?  And if he did possess righteous attributes, how does Lucifer’s alternate proposal to God’s plan eliminate him from having any righteous motives at all?  Could he not of simply become a little bit more evil at that point as opposed to automatically crowning himself as the prince of evil for eternity?

Some Christian religions interpret from the Bible that in this life we sin, but we don’t sin on our own.  We are tempted by Lucifer.  We would never rebel on our own.  We have no ability by ourselves to be disobedient to God’s commands.  Satan is to blame for evil influence.  And why is it his fault?  All because of a decision he made possibly millions of years ago?

Doesn’t guilt catch up with all of us eventually?  Wouldn’t Lucifer get tired of being the bad guy after a while?

Moment of Fixation

As Satan can never turn back from evil, God can never turn back from good.  God and Satan prove to us that a moment of fixation occurs at some point.  It is also supposed that everyone will reach this moment of fixation which is usually expected to happen at the end of one’s life.  This moment locks us into a permanent state of the desires we have held closest to us.  Those desires officially mark who we are from then on and we are limited to how we may change (Alma 34:33-35).

Magnitude of Lucifer’s Decisions

For Lucifer to instigate the War in Heaven, consequently taking a third of its host, he did much more than simply propose an alternative plan.  He sought glory for himself, vehemently seeking to destroy God’s Kingdom and all the good it represented.  Undeniably, Lucifer had a perfect knowledge of God’s plan at the time.  He had a perfect understanding of good and evil.  Proposing an alternative plan was much more sinister than it may appear from the surface.  While in this mortal life we may not comprehend, Lucifer knew of the magnitude of his rebellious decision.

Is the Concept of a Devil just as Necessary as the Concept of a Savior for Christianity to Function?

While we are taught that opposition exists in all things, I don’t think having a devil in the scheme of the things is necessary for Christianity to function.  If a devil is needed to tempt us, who tempted Lucifer when he first rebelled against God?  I believe we as imperfect beings can make wrong decisions without the influence of a devil.  The Devil increases the challenge for us to resist temptation, but he is not necessary for God’s plan to go forward.  God’s plan would go forward regardless.

The perfect plan recognizes that there is always opposition in all thins, and leverages the inevitable presence of evil actors. Lucifer, through his prideful choices, assumed the role of the most evil actor, which includes not tiring of the role (at least as far as we are concerned, for someday he will be bound). Each sphere or estate has its “moment of fixation” as you put it. This point of no return, at least in coming into this world, was in the outcome that battle in heaven, which was as much an individual battle as it is here. In this world, the point of no return is the resurrection, which occurs after we have dies and had a full opportunity to receive and “live according to God in the Spirit.”

We can certainly make evil decisions without a devil. Our mortality and flawed intelligence is certainly in opposition to God’s eternal life and perfection. But that does not change the fact that in our world, there is a devil, and that he entices us to do evil as much as the Lord entices us to do good. To deny that would deny the extent of the Son’s infinite and eternal sacrifice and prove to be a stumbling block in a world where the devil definitely acts.

In an alternate universe, who knows? But there will always be a place to which the rebellious spirits will be sent, and they will seek to do as much damage as possible, and will need to be defeated by someone that possesses more than a mortal perspective and power. Something doesn't have to be as strong as the juxtaposed principle in order to be in opposition. For example, the devil will never be as strong as God; it is us that might make him so due to our relative lack of perspective (the veil). Yet we can submit ourselves to him when we rebel against God.