Cult Profiling

[Annabelli]

Elphaba: You seem to feel free to come on this LDS site and other sites; however, you will not go to the Roman Catholic site to retrieve information on Pope Gregory XVI?

I find it very amusing that you have a fear of crosses and holy water and what ever else the Roman Catholic Church has like Exorcist.

I saw NBC Brian Williams one day last week and he made reference to the LDS Church as being the largest American Cult.

There are a number of cult organizations trying to attach themselves to the LDS Church. There are also the ones who are trying to retrieve artifacts from the LDS Church that they believe hold spiritual powers like a sacred cross.

I could care less what the consequences are for someone getting their bat wings anointed.

Basically I opened this thread to discuss cult profiling. I read the article in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism which makes good sense. I just wanted more information on the subject and how we address the matter in our Church.

[prisonchaplain]

I'm not sure what the OP means, what questions it is asking, or what, about the article in the Ency. of Mormonism makes sense. What is cult profiling? I immediately thought of Walter Martin, CARM, etc.

BTW, if it's any consulation, according to a French government cult-watch committee, both my church and Baptists are labeled as "mind-control cults."

[Old Tex]

I'm not sure what the OP means, what questions it is asking, or what, about the article in the Ency. of Mormonism makes sense. What is cult profiling? I immediately thought of Walter Martin, CARM, etc.

BTW, if it's any consulation, according to a French government cult-watch committee, both my church and Baptists are labeled as "mind-control cults."

I'm with you on your first paragraph, PC. I think we are both coming in during the middle of a movie.

As far as what the French government says, everyone knows that they are flakey and live in a bubble.

[miztrniceguy]

huh?

[Palerider]

<div class='quotemain'>

I'm not sure what the OP means, what questions it is asking, or what, about the article in the Ency. of Mormonism makes sense. What is cult profiling? I immediately thought of Walter Martin, CARM, etc.

BTW, if it's any consulation, according to a French government cult-watch committee, both my church and Baptists are labeled as "mind-control cults."

I'm with you on your first paragraph, PC. I think we are both coming in during the middle of a movie.

As far as what the French government says, everyone knows that they are flakey and live in a bubble.

you mean france has a gov't.....LOL!!!!!....oooppssss....forgot....they sure do!!!!

[antispatula]

The whole discussion of what constitutes a cult is silly,

because it's over simple use of terminology. I could care less if

the Church was considered a cult.

If people started calling the Church a frozen caterpillar's ear lobe,

would that change the truthfulness of the Gospel, or the power of Christ's atonement?

[Annabelli]

It has been my understanding that in the US all one needs to from a religion is a belief of a deity. And a cult is based on disbelief of a deity and the practice of self worship of one's self.

I am thinking more along the lines of the Peoples Temple and Jim Jones or David Koresh of Mount Carmel in Waco, TX.

[Palerider]

Elphaba: You seem to feel free to come on this LDS site and other sites; however, you will not go to the Roman Catholic site to retrieve information on Pope Gregory XVI?

I find it very amusing that you have a fear of crosses and holy water and what ever else the Roman Catholic Church has like Exorcist.

I saw NBC Brian Williams one day last week and he made reference to the LDS Church as being the largest American Cult.

There are a number of cult organizations trying to attach themselves to the LDS Church. There are also the ones who are trying to retrieve artifacts from the LDS Church that they believe hold spiritual powers like a sacred cross.

I could care less what the consequences are for someone getting their bat wings anointed.

Basically I opened this thread to discuss cult profiling. I read the article in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism which makes good sense. I just wanted more information on the subject and how we address the matter in our Church.

can't quite understand why your going off on Ellie here....she doesn't want to visit a site....it is her choice......we are all sorry if that offends you..... ....or did I read too much into this???....

[Annabelli]

Basically I was reading in another thread on this forum and someone said that we have posting patterns. It would seem that every time Elphaba is mentioned in a negative manner, there is a rescue party.

I know many people who are not committed to a religion. It's not as though they don't have a belief or testimony of God. They do struggle in their lives without things that are associated with religion, funerals/death, weddings and divorce, money/too much or not enough, and having any structure in their lives outside of school and government.

My life was very very hard before I came into the LDS Church. Every day seemed like a challenge.

[Palerider]

Basically I was reading in another thread on this forum and someone said that we have posting patterns. It would seem that every time Elphaba is mentioned in a negative manner, there is a rescue party.

I know many people who are not committed to a religion. It's not as though they don't have a belief or testimony of God. They do struggle in their lives without things that are associated with religion, funerals/death, weddings and divorce, money/too much or not enough, and having any structure in their lives outside of school and government.

My life was very very hard before I came into the LDS Church. Every day seemed like a challenge.

you can ask ellie yourself....and I am sure she will tell you that we don't see eye to eye on much of anything....and I wasn't defending her....just got me that you were calling her out for her rufusal to post on another board..... ....and I believe the person you were trying to quote in regards to posting patterns was Snow....

[Moksha]

I find it very amusing that you have a fear of crosses and holy water and what ever else the Roman Catholic Church has like Exorcist.

I don't know abour you, but I found the Exorcist to be a very scary movie.

I could care less what the consequences are for someone getting their bat wings anointed.

Holy Priesthood, sounds like esoteric practices in Gotham City!

[Palerider]

"I could care less what the consequences are for someone getting their bat wings anointed. "

Pale said......ooouuuuccccchhhhhhh..that could hurt

[a-train]

The term 'cult' became little more than a scare tactic decades ago. I always liked Bruce R.'s use of the term 'cultist'. However, IMO, I think a refrain from the term altogether would be a good move because it's meaning is too ambiguious and is often taken in a negative light.

Like the good luck charm in the nose cones of the aircraft and on the lapels of those corageous men and women who conducted many of the historical first flights in the beginning of the twentieth century, the term 'cult' cannot be redeemed from it's abused status. Once that good luck symbol became the leading icon of NAZI-ism, it could no longer have it's place, but is to this day a symbol of hate and racial supremacy. The swastika and the term 'cult' are just no longer of use in my opinion.

-a-train

[Elphaba]

Elphaba: You seem to feel free to come on this LDS site and other sites; however, you will not go to the Roman Catholic site to retrieve information on Pope Gregory XVI?

Annabelli, please, I'm being serious here. Something is wrong, and I’m not being mean. Just stick with me for a minute. You claimed on this post:

"Elphaba wrote: The entire US did not know about Joseph, though much of it did, and the “world,” knew nothing about Joseph, other than miniscule little blips here and there where missionaries had been.

Pope Gregory XVI in particular addressed issues on both the American LDS Church and Joseph Smith and the Persia Bahai Faith and Baha'ullah. "

Four times I asked for a reference where Pope Gregory XVI had said this. I even explained that I had done an extensive search and had come up with nothing. Yet you did not reply.

The last request I said I would drop it as you obviously weren’t going to provide the reference.

And yet now you’re not saying I will not go to the Roman Catholic site to retrieve the information?

That is not true Annabelli. If I had known that is where it was I would have gone there. You never gave me the reference. Do you realize that, or have you just forgotten? Or do you think you did give me the reference? What happened that you think I wouldn't go to the Roman Catholic Church for the information?

I find it very amusing that you have a fear of crosses and holy water and what ever else the Roman Catholic Church has like Exorcist.

Annabelli, I assure you I have no fear of the Roman Catholic Church’s accoutrements, or any other church’s for that matter. This belief you have that I am an atheist priestess, or something like that, is a delusion, as I've never said or done anything to make you think I fear crosses or holy water. Again, Annabelli, I’m not being mean.

You seem to move in and out of reality when you talk of these things. Many of your posts are completely lucid and rational. But then you will write one like this, that at first glance angers me.

But then I realize that something else is probably going on, and my anger is gone, and all I feel is concern for you.

Is there anyone at home that you could show this too? If so, would you please show someone? I really am worried about you and I mean that with all my heart.

Elphaba

[Adomini22]

Yeah, Elphie, just say it like it is.

[gabelpa]

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints falls under several dictionary definitions for the word cult, I reckon both Jesus and President Hinckley are charismatic so we have Charismatic leaders etc

However ifI use the modern American usage as meaning the church across the road then to me it isn't a cult:)

-Charley

[Gaia]

The whole discussion of what constitutes a cult is silly,

because it's over simple use of terminology. I could care less if

the Church was considered a cult.

If people started calling the Church a frozen caterpillar's ear lobe,

would that change the truthfulness of the Gospel, or the power of Christ's atonement?

GAIA:

Unfortunately, the term "cult" has pretty much come to mean, "Anything I /WE don't beleive in or practice."

It's a little like the old saying:

MY spirituality is "Religion", YOURS is a cult.

If memory serves, a few years ago, the Cult INformation Network (i may have the name a bit confused) -- which was once a very good resource for information on various cults -- was bought out and taken over by Scientology!

CULT EVALUATION FRAME:

For anyone who might be interested, there is a very good "Cult Evaluation Frame" which suggests that the way to identify a cult is NOT so much based on what they beleive, but rather, on HOW they BEHAVE or Implement those beliefs -- (See http://www.celticcrow.com/bonew.html )

The Key Issues include:

1. INTERNAL CONTROL:

Amount of internal political power exercised by leader(s) over members.

2. WISDOM CLAIMED by leader(s);

amount of infallibility declared or implied about decisions or doctrinal/scriptural interpretations.

3. WISDOM CREDITED to leader(s)

by members; amount of trust in decisions or doctrinal/scriptural interpretations made by leader(s).

4. DOGMA: Rigidity of reality concepts taught; amount of doctrinal inflexibility or "fundamentalism."

5. RECRUITING: Emphasis put on attracting new members; amount of proselytizing.

6. FRONT GROUPS: Number of subsidiary groups using different names from that of main goup.

7. WEALTH: Amount of money and/or property desired or obtained by group; emphasis on members' donations; economic lifestyle of leader(s) compared to ordinary members.

8. POLITICAL POWER: Amount of external political influence desired or obtained; emphasis on directing members' secular votes.

9. SEXUAL MANIPULATION: of members by leader(s); amount of control (or attempted control) exercised over sexuality of members; advancement dependent upon sexual favors or specific lifestyle.

10. CENSORSHIP: Amount of control over members' access to outside opinions on group, its doctrines or leader(s).

11. DROPOUT CONTROL: Intensity of efforts directed at preventing or returning dropouts.

12. VIOLENCE: amount of approval when used by or for the group, its doctrines or leader(s).

13. PARANOIA: amount of fear concerning real or imagined enemies; perceived power of opponents;

prevalence of conspiracy theories.

14. GRIMNESS: Amount of disapproval concerning jokes about the group, its doctrines or its leader(s).

15. SURRENDER OF WILL: Amount of emphasis on members not having to be responsible for personal decisions; degree of individual disempowerment created by the group, its doctrines or its leader(s).

16. HYPOCRISY: amount of approval for actions which the group officially considers immoral or unethical, when done by or for the group, its doctrines or leader(s); willingness to violate group's declared principles for political, psychological, economic, or other gain.

To whatever degree the above may be found in ANY group -- it may be considered a CULT.

It's also important to remember that religious are not the only type of cult(s) ---

There are therapeutic, scientific, economic and other kinds of cults, as well.

[prisonchaplain]

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints falls under several dictionary definitions for the word cult, I reckon both Jesus and President Hinckley are charismatic so we have Charismatic leaders etc

AHEM! President Hinckley and the Church may be small-c charismatic, but would not fit comfortably in the doctrinal camp known as Charismatic.

(all I did in the edit was add the smiley icon) B)

[a-train]

PC,

Perhaps the LDS faith is just as charismatic as the heel-turnin', hoppin', yelpin', hoopin', and dancin', faith-healin', southerners we so often think of. The LDS very literally believe that every member receives revelation from God; yes, a voice, a feeling, a supernatural experience. Further, we believe that we have among us the gift of tongues, interpretation of tongues, healings, and so forth.

This is all, however, done in quite dignity in the LDS world, rather than with the emotional outbursts associated therewith among our brethren in places like Arkansas and Louisiana.

In short, I agree that we are charismatic, not Charismatics. Good call.

-a-train

[prisonchaplain]

PC,

Perhaps the LDS faith is just as charismatic as the heel-turnin', hoppin', yelpin', hoopin', and dancin', faith-healin', southerners we so often think of. The LDS very literally believe that every member receives revelation from God; yes, a voice, a feeling, a supernatural experience. Further, we believe that we have among us the gift of tongues, interpretation of tongues, healings, and so forth.

Let's define some terms.

Charismatic: A movement that began in the late 1950s early 60s within mainstream denominations (Catholic and Episcopal, initially), that began to welcome corporate worship, gifts of tongues & interpretation (specifically meant the gifts of speaking out in a language not known followed by an interpretation from someone also not knowledgeable in the language spoken). They also pray for the sick, experience Words of Knowledge and Words of Wisdom (personal prophecies for individuals). They mostly stayed within their home denominations, rather than starting new ones. In terms of holiness codes (drinking alcohol, etc.) charismatics are usually quite moderate.

Pentecostal: Started in the 1900s (with precursors in the late 1800s) by Christians asking why the miracles of Acts were no longer happening. Revival broke out, but the churches of the day rejected pentecostals as having given in to false spirits and psychological induced ecstasy (or demons, from the fundamentalists viewpoint). So, they started their own denominations, and embraced very conservative holiness codes.

charismatic: dynamic, engaging, attention-grabbing in presentation.

LDS charisma: tongues = foreign languages with the gift mostly employed by missionaries who find they can speak better than they expected. Healing is the same. Prophetic words are restricted to those with certain church offices, for the most part.

So, perhaps there are similarities, but you don't really consider yourself a Charismatic, do you???

This is all, however, done in quite dignity in the LDS world, rather than with the emotional outbursts associated therewith among our brethren in places like Arkansas and Louisiana.

In short, I agree that we are charismatic, not Charismatics. Good call.

I'm going to twist an old joke, told about a Pentecostal and a Lutheran preaching, who were discussing this issue. However, I'll replace the Lutheran (Hi, Maureen! :-) ) with an LDS bishop.

LDS Bishop: You Pentecostals are out of control! The way you yell and carry on--don't you know God ain't deaf?

Pentecostal Preacher: You're right, of course. God is not deaf. But...He ain't nervous, either.

[a-train]

PC,

I totally agree with your definitions. And again, no LDS are not Charismatics, but they have charisma. Agreed.

Perhaps the joke is lost in translation. I get it, but perhaps it was more funny in the original format?

I'm sure you've heard the old joke about the three preachers in the boat. One says: 'I'll be right back.' and walks across the water to land and returns with a Dr. Pepper. One of the remaining sits in shock and upon the water-walking preacher's return he says: 'How did you do that!?'

The water-walker replies: 'By faith, good man.' Then the third preacher says: 'Indeed, I'll be back as well.' and walks on the water just the same. As he returns with more worms for the fishing the astounded preacher continues to be so and asks once more: 'How are you guys doing this?'

They both go on that it is by faith. He then, with a look of profound determination on his face and a silent prayer, attempts to do as his coleagues and stands out on the water. His attempt is accepted by the lake with a splash and while he is under the water, the first minister says to his counterpart: 'Should we show him where the rocks are?' His friend replies: 'Let him swim a while.'

After a few attempts, the two begin to taunt our wet friend saying: 'Perhaps now that your baptized.' Eventually, he gains footing and walks to land shouting praises and upon his return the two in the boat say: 'So you found the rocks!' He replies: 'Rocks, what rocks?... Oh, you mean Jesus. Yes, I've found him.'

There are a lot of versions of that old joke.

LDS charisma: tongues = foreign languages with the gift mostly employed by missionaries who find they can speak better than they expected. Healing is the same. Prophetic words are restricted to those with certain church offices, for the most part.

It should be understood that the gift of tongues is not limited to simply speaking better than expected. Also, there are many cases in Church history and among the people where healings were instant and remarkable. Prophecy is to be had among every member, even sisters. To prophecy is to testify of Christ by the power of the Holy Ghost, this is not only available to all members, but encouraged among all members.

-a-train

[prisonchaplain]

It took the Catholics and other mainstream churches about 70 years to welcome the charismatic renewal. As a result, there is much dialogue, and far less tension between Catholics and pentecostals/charismatics. If such a thing were to happen within your church, perhaps all of our theological assumptions would be blown away. :-)