Seeking Truth

[Traveler]

I consider myself as a Traveler lost but seeking truth that I may someday return to my home.  Often, I ponder and study intently revelations we are given as a guide.  Recently I was listing not just to what I was hearing but to the spirit as well.  I was impressed to understand that virtue and truth are what we call in science as “tightly coupled”.  This means that the two are so closely aligned that depth of one cannot be understood without the other.  For me this is a significant paradigm shift.   Often, I have argued that truth is tightly coupled with empirical evidence.

What do others think or is your experience?  Is virtue a precursor to you that goes hand in hand in understanding and identifying truth?

 

The Traveler

[zil]

31 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I consider myself as a Traveler lost but seeking truth that I may someday return to my home.  Often, I ponder and study intently revelations we are given as a guide.  Recently I was listing not just to what I was hearing but to the spirit as well.  I was impressed to understand that virtue and truth are what we call in science as “tightly coupled”.  This means that the two are so closely aligned that depth of one cannot be understood without the other.  For me this is a significant paradigm shift.   Often, I have argued that truth is tightly coupled with empirical evidence.

What do others think or is your experience?  Is virtue a precursor to you that goes hand in hand in understanding and identifying truth?

The Traveler

It seems to me that virtue is truth in action.  It seems reasonable to believe that truth cannot fully be understood without acting on it.  Acting on it is virtuous, thus increasing your understanding and virtue.  This would be an upward spiral, increasing your understanding of truth and virtue together.

[Sunday21]

2 hours ago, zil said:

It seems to me that virtue is truth in action.  It seems reasonable to believe that truth cannot fully be understood without acting on it.  Acting on it is virtuous, thus increasing your understanding and virtue.  This would be an upward spiral, increasing your understanding of truth and virtue together.

I agree. I think to understand a virtue such as tithing, you need to perform the action of paying tithing. I think trying to understand virtues such as tithing, service, compassion, you need to live the virtue. Action is vital. People can discuss philosophy and virtue without gaining much from mere contemplation.

[CV75]

18 hours ago, Traveler said:

I consider myself as a Traveler lost but seeking truth that I may someday return to my home.  Often, I ponder and study intently revelations we are given as a guide.  Recently I was listing not just to what I was hearing but to the spirit as well.  I was impressed to understand that virtue and truth are what we call in science as “tightly coupled”.  This means that the two are so closely aligned that depth of one cannot be understood without the other.  For me this is a significant paradigm shift.   Often, I have argued that truth is tightly coupled with empirical evidence.

What do others think or is your experience?  Is virtue a precursor to you that goes hand in hand in understanding and identifying truth?

 

The Traveler

Yes, I think so. The tree of life and the tree of knowledge represent this. In Mosiah 4:11-12 we find a phrase that expresses this connection or tight coupling: "ye shall always rejoice, and be filled with the love of God, and always retain a remission of your sins; and ye shall grow in the knowledge of the glory of him that created you, or in the knowledge of that which is just and true." The tree of life, or immortality, is the an expression of the loving condescension of God, while the tree of knowledge is the expression of the quality of life, eternal life, that He lives. I see virtue (the red bolded text) ans the coupling link between love or charity and knowledge.

Edited January 13, 2018 by CV75

[wenglund]

On 1/12/2018 at 2:01 PM, Traveler said:

I consider myself as a Traveler lost but seeking truth that I may someday return to my home.  Often, I ponder and study intently revelations we are given as a guide.  Recently I was listing not just to what I was hearing but to the spirit as well.  I was impressed to understand that virtue and truth are what we call in science as “tightly coupled”.  This means that the two are so closely aligned that depth of one cannot be understood without the other.  For me this is a significant paradigm shift.   Often, I have argued that truth is tightly coupled with empirical evidence.

What do others think or is your experience?  Is virtue a precursor to you that goes hand in hand in understanding and identifying truth?

 

The Traveler

To me, the "tight coupling" between truth and virtue is a function of mutual meaningfulness. By this I mean that each, in part, derive their meaningfulness from the other.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Guest]

On 1/12/2018 at 3:01 PM, Traveler said:

What do others think or is your experience?  Is virtue a precursor to you that goes hand in hand in understanding and identifying truth?

Yes and no.  It seems that in your final question, you're characterizing "virtue" as an all-or-nothing proposition.  That makes "virtue" an impossible prerequisite.  I think scriptures tell us that certain virtues are required.  But perfection seems to elude us. I have to believe the bar is somewhat lower than that -- or else none of us would ever learn the truth.

I'd submit that the virtues most important in seeking divine truth are (not necessarily an exhaustive list) the following:

1) Humility:  We must begin from a position of humility or we would not search to begin with.  We would not look up to find answers, but rather within.  Within is the sophistry of man today.  The counsel of the Lord is "Don't look around.  Look up."
2) Willingness to Obey: We can't expect God to reveal to us His truths if we will immediately choose to do wrong anyway.  We must show the Lord that we are wiling to do according to the light and knowledge we currently have, or He will not trust us with further truths.  I take this to mean that we are constantly working on the obedience thing.  We're not perfectly obedient.  But we continually try to improve.  Our eye is set firmly on the Glory of God (that has two meanings).
3) Sacrifice: 

Quote

O God, Aaron hath told me that there is a God; and if there is a God, and if thou art God, wilt thou make thyself known unto me, and I will give away all my sins to know thee, and that I may be raised from the dead, and be saved at the last day. And now when the king had said these words, he was struck as if he were dead.

Alma 22:18

This verse refers to both #2 and #3.  I think its self-explanatory.

[Guest]

On 1/12/2018 at 3:01 PM, Traveler said:

Often, I have argued that truth is tightly coupled with empirical evidence.

Now, this is really a different type of statement than what the question following it asked.

Who says empirical evidence is necessarily temporal?  That is what appears to be the assumption of the statement.  Is not spiritual evidence every bit as empirical as physical experimentation?

[Traveler]

10 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Now, this is really a different type of statement than what the question following it asked.

Who says empirical evidence is necessarily temporal?  That is what appears to be the assumption of the statement.  Is not spiritual evidence every bit as empirical as physical experimentation?

 

Perhaps I could explain it this way.  It does not matter if a person is virtuous or not; if they turn on a light switch – the truth of electricity will cause the light to come on.  With this example – I had thought that the scripture that says, “Truth is independent in the sphere in which it is placed” – meant that truth is independent of virtue.  The idea that virtue and truth is tightly coupled (cannot be separated – not independent) is a major paradigm shift in my understanding.  I am trying to rearrange many puzzle pieces I thought fit together quite well.

I am also trying to deal with the idea that truth, like rain, will rain on the just and the unjust – or should I say the virtuous and the unvirtuous (or rebellious).  In short, I am struggling with this new paradigm.  For me it is a seed that “feels” good and am curious if others have been down this path.  In essence, I wondered how others have dealt with these ideas – or if they have even been considered.  I know this conundrum is the prefix of a very old and long running argument with its stepsister question of why bad things happen to good people.  I am rethinking some of this.  It is not so much finding “the answer” for me as it is knowing I am applying the correct principles in their proper “order”.

 

The Traveler

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

Perhaps I could explain it this way.  It does not matter if a person is virtuous or not; if they turn on a light switch – the truth of electricity will cause the light to come on.  With this example – I had thought that the scripture that says, “Truth is independent in the sphere in which it is placed” – meant that truth is independent of virtue.  The idea that virtue and truth is tightly coupled (cannot be separated – not independent) is a major paradigm shift in my understanding.  I am trying to rearrange many puzzle pieces I thought fit together quite well.

I am also trying to deal with the idea that truth, like rain, will rain on the just and the unjust – or should I say the virtuous and the unvirtuous (or rebellious).  In short, I am struggling with this new paradigm.  For me it is a seed that “feels” good and am curious if others have been down this path.  In essence, I wondered how others have dealt with these ideas – or if they have even been considered.  I know this conundrum is the prefix of a very old and long running argument with its stepsister question of why bad things happen to good people.  I am rethinking some of this.  It is not so much finding “the answer” for me as it is knowing I am applying the correct principles in their proper “order”.

I'm beginning to have more difficulty understanding what you mean by this.  I think I understand a statement, but then the sentence that follows seems to be saying exactly the opposite.

Truth is truth no matter where it is or who receives or believes it.  Yes.  Truth does not change.

Quote

Behold, my brethren, he that prophesieth, let him prophesy to the understanding of men; for the Spirit speaketh the truth and lieth not. Wherefore, it speaketh of things as they really are, and of things as they really will be; wherefore, these things are manifested unto us plainly, for the salvation of our souls. But behold, we are not witnesses alone in these things; for God also spake them unto prophets of old.

Jacob 4: 13

The truth is the way things really are and really will be.  The truth is what the Spirit speaks to us.  Whether we receive it is a different story.  Whether we're listening is a different story.  Whether we make use of the truth that we receive is a different story.

I'm not sure what you're actually saying in this last post you put up there because statements seem to contradict each other.  So, in the context of Jacob's statement, what is it you're trying to say?

[zil]

10 hours ago, Traveler said:

Perhaps I could explain it this way.  It does not matter if a person is virtuous or not; if they turn on a light switch – the truth of electricity will cause the light to come on.  With this example – I had thought that the scripture that says, “Truth is independent in the sphere in which it is placed” – meant that truth is independent of virtue.  The idea that virtue and truth is tightly coupled (cannot be separated – not independent) is a major paradigm shift in my understanding.  I am trying to rearrange many puzzle pieces I thought fit together quite well.

I am also trying to deal with the idea that truth, like rain, will rain on the just and the unjust – or should I say the virtuous and the unvirtuous (or rebellious).  In short, I am struggling with this new paradigm.  For me it is a seed that “feels” good and am curious if others have been down this path.  In essence, I wondered how others have dealt with these ideas – or if they have even been considered.  I know this conundrum is the prefix of a very old and long running argument with its stepsister question of why bad things happen to good people.  I am rethinking some of this.  It is not so much finding “the answer” for me as it is knowing I am applying the correct principles in their proper “order”.

The Traveler

Perhaps truth and virtue are only "tightly coupled" in a person with agency - neither can be properly understood one without the other.  Perhaps truth is independent in its own sphere, but virtue cannot exist without truth.  Perhaps it's tightly coupled in only one direction, with virtue being dependent upon truth.

Perhaps the coupling only applies in some cases.  For example, in your example of electricity, it is indeed part of reality and therefore "truth", but barring other ingredients, I don't know that there's anything terribly significant going on from a spiritual standpoint.  Without a spiritual context, virtue cannot be identified.  But when you focus on the agent rather than the truth alone, virtue is able to enter the picture.  A wicked person turning on the light for wicked purposes decouples virtue from the truth of that electricity creating light.  (Perhaps sin is the decoupling of virtue from truth.)  A righteous person turning on the light for righteous purposes makes the act virtuous.  Hmm.  Perhaps the agent is what couples (or uncouples) truth and virtue.

Unfiltered thoughts for you to mull over.

[Traveler]

2 hours ago, zil said:

Perhaps truth and virtue are only "tightly coupled" in a person with agency - neither can be properly understood one without the other.  Perhaps truth is independent in its own sphere, but virtue cannot exist without truth.  Perhaps it's tightly coupled in only one direction, with virtue being dependent upon truth.

Perhaps the coupling only applies in some cases.  For example, in your example of electricity, it is indeed part of reality and therefore "truth", but barring other ingredients, I don't know that there's anything terribly significant going on from a spiritual standpoint.  Without a spiritual context, virtue cannot be identified.  But when you focus on the agent rather than the truth alone, virtue is able to enter the picture.  A wicked person turning on the light for wicked purposes decouples virtue from the truth of that electricity creating light.  (Perhaps sin is the decoupling of virtue from truth.)  A righteous person turning on the light for righteous purposes makes the act virtuous.  Hmm.  Perhaps the agent is what couples (or uncouples) truth and virtue.

Unfiltered thoughts for you to mull over.

Perhaps I should add that the thought of this coupling came (quite strongly) while engaged (working) at the temple.  I do not feel it is appropriate to give all the details. 

 

The Traveler