The Folk Prophet Posted March 23, 2018 Report Share Posted March 23, 2018 2 minutes ago, wenglund said: I think that those who believe this way should share a room with Saddam Hussein, Kim Jung-un. Jack the Ripper, an infamous pedophile and the like during the early part of the afterlife, or at least until they get the point. Thanks, -Wade Englund- Oh...but you see...it's God's fault because He didn't teach them well enough. wenglund 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted March 23, 2018 Report Share Posted March 23, 2018 3 minutes ago, changed said: So you do not believe a third were already cast away I do believe they were cast away. I was speaking of those who came here to earth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted March 23, 2018 Report Share Posted March 23, 2018 9 minutes ago, changed said: So you do not believe a third were already cast away? they that have done good... so I do not have to have faith in a g-d who has left his children to be molested by high priests? I just have to volunteer, feed the hungry, house the homeless, try to make abused kids feel better - that sort of thing? That is great news! I dislike g-d (who does not seem to do much good around here), but I can, and I do, do good. I believe the 1/3 were already cast away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crash Posted March 24, 2018 Report Share Posted March 24, 2018 2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said: I dont agree with this. Can you give a scripture that shows those gaining salvation in Gods kingdom are in an eternal state of misery? Um, please reread my post. I never said that those in God's kingdom will be in an eternal state of misery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted March 24, 2018 Report Share Posted March 24, 2018 12 minutes ago, Crash said: Um, please reread my post. I never said that those in God's kingdom will be in an eternal state of misery. Hum...so, you dont think the telestial or terrestrial are part of heaven? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted March 24, 2018 Report Share Posted March 24, 2018 2 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said: Hum...so, you dont think the telestial or terrestrial are part of heaven? Are we going to get into another useless semantics debate? Is the Telestial and Terrestrial kingdoms where the Father is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crash Posted March 24, 2018 Report Share Posted March 24, 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said: Hum...so, you dont think the telestial or terrestrial are part of heaven? In terms of living with God for eternity, no, they are not. The souls that will reside in those kingdoms will be cut off from the Lord's presence. They will not reside with Him. That has been revealed through modern-day revelation. The problem with labeling only two distinct possibilities in the afterlife is that it disregards latter-day prophesy and revelation about the degrees of glory and outer darkness. Please reread the part about there being state of endless misery and grief. If you are cut off from the Lord's presence, you are in that eternal state of misery and grief (i.e., hell). I believe this confusion stems from taking certain doctrines very literally and dismissing others, particularly the very detailed ones about the afterlife. Edited March 24, 2018 by Crash Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted March 24, 2018 Report Share Posted March 24, 2018 1 hour ago, Crash said: In terms of living with God for eternity, no, they are not. The souls that will reside in those kingdoms will be cut off from the Lord's presence. They will not reside with Him. That has been revealed through modern-day revelation. The problem with labeling only two distinct possibilities in the afterlife is that it disregards latter-day prophesy and revelation about the degrees of glory and outer darkness. Please reread the part about there being state of endless misery and grief. If you are cut off from the Lord's presence, you are in that eternal state of misery and grief (i.e., hell). I believe this confusion stems from taking certain doctrines very literally and dismissing others, particularly the very detailed ones about the afterlife. So, is there a scripture that states specifically that someone who is saved from hell is saved into a state of misery? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted March 24, 2018 Report Share Posted March 24, 2018 1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said: Are we going to get into another useless semantics debate? Is the Telestial and Terrestrial kingdoms where the Father is? Well, according to the scriptures there is the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of the devil. So, which is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted March 24, 2018 Report Share Posted March 24, 2018 I might add that this earth is the telestial kingdom and Gods kingdom is found on this earth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted March 24, 2018 Report Share Posted March 24, 2018 2 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said: Well, according to the scriptures there is the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of the devil. So, which is it? You didn't answer my question. You first. Then I'll give you my answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted March 24, 2018 Report Share Posted March 24, 2018 19 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: You didn't answer my question. You first. Then I'll give you my answer. Well, we do know the Father will make this earth his home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted March 24, 2018 Report Share Posted March 24, 2018 12 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said: Well, we do know the Father will make this earth his home. You still didn't answer my question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted March 24, 2018 Report Share Posted March 24, 2018 10 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: You still didn't answer my question. Okay, is the Father here on this earth right now? No. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted March 24, 2018 Report Share Posted March 24, 2018 6 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said: Okay, is the Father here on this earth right now? No. And... still didn't answer my question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted March 24, 2018 Report Share Posted March 24, 2018 Just now, The Folk Prophet said: And... still didn't answer my question. You obviously got to know that I believe we are currently in the telestial kingdom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted March 24, 2018 Report Share Posted March 24, 2018 Just now, Rob Osborn said: You obviously got to know that I believe we are currently in the telestial kingdom. And... still. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted March 24, 2018 Report Share Posted March 24, 2018 5 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: And... still. Are we in misery here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MormonGator Posted March 24, 2018 Report Share Posted March 24, 2018 2 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said: Are we in misery here? Those of us reading the thread are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crash Posted March 24, 2018 Report Share Posted March 24, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said: So, is there a scripture that states specifically that someone who is saved from hell is saved into a state of misery? I'm not sure why you are putting words into my mouth when I have given pretty detailed information about the state of those who do not inherit the Celestial Kingdom/are cut off from the Lord's presence and how it fits into the doctrines of the church. It seems that you are so hung up on anything but outer darkness is not hell that you are ignoring the Doctrine and Covenants and the points I have made, so I'm going to speak more plainly. There are three degrees or worlds or kingdoms in the afterlife, the Celestial, Terrestrial and Telestial. There is also outer darkness. In the Celestial Kingdom there are three degrees of glory (glory being where God's Kingdom is). Only those who are saved in God's kingdom will be in the Celestial world, no matter the degree in that world. All other worlds, including outer darkness, are cut off from the Lord's presence. Those in outer darkness are eternally cut off, never having any contact with anyone from any other world. The Celestial hosts may visit the hosts of the Terrestrial and Telestial Kingdoms. The Terrestrial hosts may visit the hosts of the Telestial kingdom. The hosts of the lesser kingdoms may not visit the kingdoms greater than their own. All those who are in the lesser kingdoms are cut off from living in the Lord's presence, hence being in an eternal state of grief or hell. Nowhere in the scriptures or modern revelation does it say that those who are assigned to the lesser kingdoms are fully saved to the same degree as those who inherit the celestial kingdom, so when you say that I said they are saved into a state of misery, you are twisting my words because you assume that your understanding of these doctrines is the only correct one and the rest of us are misled. Furthermore, the earth is not the Telestial kingdom. The words of modern day prophets is that the state of the earth as it is now is likened to what the state of living in the Telestial kingdom will be in the afterlife. If you say that we're currently in the Telestial kingdom, you would be wrong. In a nutshell, if you are not in the Celestial Kingdom, you are not saved into God's presence and you will be in hell. You can only progress in the afterlife if you inherit the Celestial Kingdom. There is no progression anywhere else. The other kingdoms are eternal. All of the kingdoms and outer darkness are eternal. I hope that you will humble yourself and seek the Lord's guidance on this. Please don't put words into my mouth or twist my words to mean something I did not say. I have spoken very plainly and what I have said is what I mean. Edited March 24, 2018 by Crash Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted March 24, 2018 Report Share Posted March 24, 2018 Clearly @Rob Osborn doesn't want to answer my question because if he says that those in the telestial kingdom have access to Christ and the Father he's a liar (D&C 76:112), and if he speaks the truth, then how can it be heaven if it isn't where God and Christ are? wenglund 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted March 24, 2018 Report Share Posted March 24, 2018 47 minutes ago, Crash said: I'm not sure why you are putting words into my mouth when I have given pretty detailed information about the state of those who do not inherit the Celestial Kingdom/are cut off from the Lord's presence and how it fits into the doctrines of the church. It seems that you are so hung up on anything but outer darkness is not hell that you are ignoring the Doctrine and Covenants and the points I have made, so I'm going to speak more plainly. There are three degrees or worlds or kingdoms in the afterlife, the Celestial, Terrestrial and Telestial. There is also outer darkness. In the Celestial Kingdom there are three degrees of glory (glory being where God's Kingdom is). Only those who are saved in God's kingdom will be in the Celestial world, no matter the degree in that world. All other worlds, including outer darkness, are cut off from the Lord's presence. Those in outer darkness are eternally cut off, never having any contact with anyone from any other world. The Celestial hosts may visit the hosts of the Terrestrial and Telestial Kingdoms. The Terrestrial hosts may visit the hosts of the Telestial kingdom. The hosts of the lesser kingdoms may not visit the kingdoms greater than their own. All those who are in the lesser kingdoms are cut off from living in the Lord's presence, hence being in an eternal state of grief or hell. Nowhere in the scriptures or modern revelation does it say that those who are assigned to the lesser kingdoms are saved, so when you say that I said they are saved into a state of misery, you are twisting my words because you assume that your understanding of these doctrines is the only correct one and the rest of us are misled. Furthermore, the earth is not the Telestial kingdom. The words of modern day prophets is that the state of the earth as it is now is likened to what the state of living in the Telestial kingdom will be in the afterlife. If you say that we're currently in the Telestial kingdom, you would be wrong. In a nutshell, if you are not in the Celestial Kingdom, you are not saved and you will be in hell. You can only progress in the afterlife if you inherit the Celestial Kingdom. There is no progression anywhere else. The other kingdoms are eternal. All of the kingdoms and outer darkness are eternal. I hope that you will humble yourself and seek the Lord's guidance on this. Please don't put words into my mouth or twist my words to mean something I did not say. I have spoken very plainly and what I have said is what I mean. So much here to disect. But, on principle alone there are a lot of errors you make. Technically speaking, according to official LDS doctrine, the Lord is with the terrestrial heirs- in their presence. So, you are in error there. You are also in error according to LDS official doctrine in stating that the lower kingdoms arent saved. Telestial inhabitants are heirs of salvation. You are also in error stating the prophets dont state this is the telestial kingdom. Thats untrue. Jeffrey R. Holland stated in the last conference- "We are in the telestial kingdom" https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2017/10/be-ye-therefore-perfect-eventually?lang=eng So, at least an actual prophet agrees with me. Is he wrong too? You are also in error stating all the lower kingdoms are hell. Thats clearly not LDS doctrine. So, it appears, we both have beliefs that run contrary to official doctrine. Kind of puts things in perspective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted March 24, 2018 Report Share Posted March 24, 2018 27 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: Clearly @Rob Osborn doesn't want to answer my question because if he says that those in the telestial kingdom have access to Christ and the Father he's a liar (D&C 76:112), and if he speaks the truth, then how can it be heaven if it isn't where God and Christ are? Its because we are now in the telestial kingdoms. You seem to frequent D&C section 76. Perhaps you can explain to me why the sons of perdition are in the telestial kingdom? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted March 24, 2018 Report Share Posted March 24, 2018 Just now, Rob Osborn said: Its because we are now in the telestial kingdoms. You seem to frequent D&C section 76. Perhaps you can explain to me why the sons of perdition are in the telestial kingdom? I cannot explain your mental incompetence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted March 24, 2018 Report Share Posted March 24, 2018 10 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: I cannot explain your mental incompetence. Whatever Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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