Are animals damned?

[Rob Osborn]

4 minutes ago, wenglund said:

I didn't see the words "greater damnation" anywhere in that passage, nor did I see any indication that the passages was clarifying the meaning of "greater damnation" in terms of duration, and this to the exclusion of other types of rankings.

Care to try again? I will continue asking, along with noting your lack of success in producing a single scripture, since I know how much you love that kind of thing.

Thanks, -Wade Englund

Yeah, this in light that not even one scripture mentions damnation as being denied access to God and his glory and stopped in his progression. I find it thus ironic that you would first have to prove that the dictionary definition is wrong but bypass that altogether insisting it must mean what our religion thinks it means void of any scripture reference.

(BTW, the BoM actually defines damnation as being delivered up unto the devil.)

[wenglund]

9 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Yeah, this in light that not even one scripture mentions damnation as being denied access to God and his glory and stopped in his progression. I find it thus ironic that you would first have to prove that the dictionary definition is wrong but bypass that altogether insisting it must mean what our religion thinks it means void of any scripture reference.

(BTW, the BoM actually defines damnation as being delivered up unto the devil.)

So, not a single scripture that defines "greater damnation" as meaning only duration?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

All sin slows our progression down. Because we are sinners and not perfect thats hapoening all the time all around us. This doesnt mean were all in varying states of damnation.

Thanks for kind of answering the first of the remaining 4 questions. However, do you have a scripture that says that unrepentant sin slows our progression down? I ask because, while the notion makes perfect sense to me, you seem not to accept rational assertions unless they are explicitly stated in scripture.  All I need is one scripture..

I should tell you that each of the 4 questions about stopped progression were taken from scriptures on damnation (not to be confused with the 5th and separate question on degrees of damnation). I am testing to see if you are capable of grasping the implied relationship between stopped progression and damnation. I am seeing if, in this case, you are capable of synthesizing according to Bloom's taxonomy of learning. 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited March 21, 2018 by wenglund

[person0]

7 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

So, perhaps you could find me the scripture where it states the person who is saved into celestial glory, but isnt married, is then denied access to the presence of God and his glory?

Why would I even be trying to say that?  I don't believe what I think you just accused me of believing.

[The Folk Prophet]

8 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Perhaps you are ready to show all your scriptures showing how God saves people from hell and into damnation?

Your infantile game with arbitrary rules you've established inspired by Satan are the same rules that led to the great apostasy -- the same rules that keep other churches from the truth -- the same rules that lead to the demise of all who would put themselves ahead of the prophets and apostles.

The rules of God and Christ are that His living prophets and apostles teach us the truth and rejecting them is the same as rejecting God. By rejecting what our living prophets teach you are rejecting God.

You can play the childish "show me in the scriptures" game all day. No one cares. We (I specifically) have shown you what our living prophets teach and how they would have us understand the scriptures. You reject that to your peril. Here's some scriptures on rejecting the prophets:

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/1.14?lang=eng#p13

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/26.3?lang=eng#p2

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/27.5?lang=eng#4

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/1-ne/7.14?lang=eng#13

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/21.4-6?lang=eng#p3

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/20.26?lang=eng#p25

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/amos/3.7?lang=eng#p6

I know these scriptures will have no more effect on you than anything else. You'll twist their meaning, excuse them away, and continue down your path of confusion, because you have cast off the living prophets and the Spirit of the Lord will not strive with those who do so. Casting off the living prophets leads us to a deep sleep, cuts us off from His people, the gates of hell will prevail against us, and if we continue to do so may perish and risk the loss of eternal life. It's right there in black and white.

The teachings of our modern prophets and apostles on these matters is as plain as can be. Anyone who rejects these teachings stands in jeopardy.

But let's actually look at some scriptures concerning damnation and the plan of salvation since you seem to be either too stubborn or or too daft to heed the living prophets' and apostles' words.

2 Nephi 9:24 "And if they will not repent and believe in his name, and be baptized in his name, and endure to the end, they must be damned; for the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel, has spoken it."

Here we plainly learn that those who won't endure to the end will be damned.

2 Nephi 31:17-21 "17 Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.

"18 And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should receive.

"19 And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save.

"20 Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.

"21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen."

Here we plainly see that enduring to the end is required for eternal life. (see also: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/3-ne/15.9?lang=eng#8, https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/14.7?lang=eng#6, https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/66.12?lang=eng#p11, etc.)

Moses 1:39 teaches us that God's work and glory are to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. Immortality is physical resurrection. Eternal life is exaltation.

D&C 1:32 clarifies this, specifically vs 22-25 (and other places): "22 For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me.

"23 But if ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; that where I am ye shall be also.

"24 This is eternal lives—to know the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law.

"25 Broad is the gate, and wide the way that leadeth to the deaths; and many there are that go in thereat, because they receive me not, neither do they abide in my law."

And D&C 88:4 specifies: "This Comforter is the promise which I give unto you of eternal life, even the glory of the celestial kingdom;"

It is very plain if one isn't too narrow-minded to actually look deeper than the shallow, standard, unrevealed, man-made, "Christian" view of damnation.

Look, if you really want to play this scripture chase game I could indulge, and pound you into the ground all the live-long day (assuming I actually had the time...which I don't). But it really isn't useful. I know, even having shown the above as plain as the light of day, that you will reject it, continue to reject the prophets and apostles, and find a way to believing your own intelligence is superior to all others.

It's a nice game to play -- throw out any quote that isn't directly from the scriptures. No one, I bet, is deceived into believing such a method is legitimate. But it is an interesting game to play. Foolish. But interesting.

Edited March 21, 2018 by The Folk Prophet

[Rob Osborn]

6 hours ago, wenglund said:

So, not a single scripture that defines "greater damnation" as meaning only duration?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Joseph Smith, who translated our scriptures knew the correct meaning. Go and read all of Josephs writings and sermons and it becomes easily apparent that Joseph always used damnation to refer to the wicked condemned to hell. So, when I actually come across actual scriptures that confirm this, even one particular that actually defines damnation to the reader as being delivered up to the devil tgen there can be no doubt as to its meaning. Therefore, in a different scripture where it speaks of "greater damnation" it is speaking of a greater condemnation to hell. This is analogous to a prisoner receiving a greater condemnation, or sentence, than another. Irregardless, we can be assured that the greater condemnation spoken of is in regards to condemnation to hell as the scriptures verify that fact.

[The Folk Prophet]

10 minutes ago, changed said:

quick question - do you love those in your family?  Your parents, siblings, children - do you love them enough to want to be sealed to all of them through eternity?

Do you think Nephi loved his family?  Do you think he wanted to be sealed to his entire family through eternity - including Laman and Lemuel?  

Would you be happy in the celestial kingdom if others in your immediate family were not there with you?  If instead they were eternally condemned to a state of suffering and pain?

• If you could be happy without them - did you really love them in the first place?  Do you really love anyone at all?  Will it make you happy to know others are eternally being tormented?  Is that what heaven is full of - spirits who enjoy and find happiness in the misery and torment of others?
• If you would not be happy without them, if you love everyone as you love yourself - if the thought of suffering causes you to suffer, if  you are empathetic and concerned for the salvation of everyone (knowing everyone is not saved) then what is the point of Heaven?

I guess God's not really happy then. Is God a liar? Do you trust that God is not a liar?

Are you determined only to understand the eternities from your own mortal, imperfect, weak, shallow, and selfish point of view? Or are you willing to trust in the Lord, who sees and knows all, who comprehends what love really is, and whose words are plain and sure?

Of course, emotionally, I can understand what you're expressing here. How foolish it would be of me to take my immature, weak, human emotions and dust-of-the-earth, limited, human mind and intelligence and cast off the things of God because I cannot understand and see all that He does.

I will trust in God.

Edited March 21, 2018 by The Folk Prophet

[Rob Osborn]

6 hours ago, wenglund said:

Thanks for kind of answering the first of the remaining 4 questions. However, do you have a scripture that says that unrepentant sin slows our progression down? I ask because, while the notion makes perfect sense to me, you seem not to accept rational assertions unless they are explicitly stated in scripture.  All I need is one scripture..

I should tell you that each of the 4 questions about stopped progression were taken from scriptures on damnation (not to be confused with the 5th and separate question on degrees of damnation). I am testing to see if you are capable of grasping the implied relationship between stopped progression and damnation. I am seeing if, in this case, you are capable of synthesizing according to Bloom's taxonomy of learning. 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I agree tgat there is an implied relatiinship with being dambed and slowed in ones progress. I also belueve theres an implied relationship with being in darkness and damnation. I also believe in the implied relationship with being in torment and damnation. But, standing alone, none of those relationships, or effects, are the definintion of damnation. You still havent shown where the one belief of the effect of being slowed in progressiin is "the" definition of damnation.

[The Folk Prophet]

12 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

You still havent shown where the one belief of the effect of being slowed in progressiin is "the" definition of damnation.

I don't believe that there is anyone who has claimed there is a one-and-only "the" definition of damnation except for you. Everyone else has been quite clear that damnation is to be understood as a broad concept based on the teachings of the living prophets and apostles and an overall view of the scriptures and how they fit together. You're the only one who stubbornly insists on a one-and-only meaning of the word. Everyone else accepts the very plain and common modern LDS understanding of damnation, as described in the Bible Dictionary:

As used in the KJV this word has a wider meaning than is at once apparent from modern usage. Damnation is the opposite of salvation and exists in varying degrees. All who do not obtain the fulness of celestial exaltation will to some degree be limited in their progress and privileges and hence be damned to that extent.

(https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/damnation?lang=eng)

Edited March 21, 2018 by The Folk Prophet

[The Folk Prophet]

2 minutes ago, changed said:

... the cry of the blood of the saints shall ascend up to God from the ground against them...

↑ does this mean the saints are unable to forgive their enemies?

...of you it is required to forgive all men.

...But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses....

Jesus forgave those who nailed him to the cross:

Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do

Aren't we supposed to forgive everyone too?  

... the cry of the blood of the saints shall ascend up to God from the ground against them...

condemnation comes to those whom the "saints" refuse to forgive? 

Wow.

[The Folk Prophet]

1 minute ago, changed said:

And it came to pass that the God of heaven
looked upon the residue of the people, and he wept.

It wearies me to have to explain basics to people.

You can learn and understand this on your own. I'll even help. Start here:

https://www.lds.org/search?q=fullness+of+joy&lang=eng&domains=scriptures

And then put your brain to use a bit and consider. Is it not possible that God can weep for sin and also have a fullness of joy? Aren't the scriptures plain on both points? If this is true for God, then can it not be true for us as well.

[The Folk Prophet]

13 minutes ago, changed said:

Is it not possible for all to be saved in the kingdom of g-d?

Hmm. Well, that was Satan's plan. So probably worth considering. 

[person0]

18 minutes ago, changed said:

the animals did not eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, the animals cannot sin - they are innocent, like children.  I think animals will inherit the highest kingdom. 

It is already established LDS doctrine that this is correct.  Animals will inherit the Celestial Kingdom.

[Rob Osborn]

47 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I don't believe that there is anyone who has claimed there is a one-and-only "the" definition of damnation except for you. Everyone else has been quite clear that damnation is to be understood as a broad concept based on the teachings of the living prophets and apostles and an overall view of the scriptures and how they fit together. You're the only one who stubbornly insists on a one-and-only meaning of the word. Everyone else accepts the very plain and common modern LDS understanding of damnation, as described in the Bible Dictionary:

As used in the KJV this word has a wider meaning than is at once apparent from modern usage. Damnation is the opposite of salvation and exists in varying degrees. All who do not obtain the fulness of celestial exaltation will to some degree be limited in their progress and privileges and hence be damned to that extent.

(https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/damnation?lang=eng)

If dambation is the opposite of salvation and all the saved receive salvation then how can it be that they have damnation? I do find it interesting thst tge Guide to the Scriptures left that out thst whole front part because it obviously was a contradiction.

[The Folk Prophet]

2 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

because it obviously was a contradiction.

Only obvious to someone who doesn't have the mental aptitude to understand the nuances of gradation.

[Rob Osborn]

27 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Only obvious to someone who doesn't have the mental aptitude to understand the nuances of gradation.

So, what then do you think the definition of salvation is?

[The Folk Prophet]

1 minute ago, Rob Osborn said:

So, what then do you think the definition of salvation is?

The state of being saved.

[wenglund]

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Joseph Smith, who translated our scriptures knew the correct meaning. Go and read all of Josephs writings and sermons and it becomes easily apparent that Joseph always used damnation to refer to the wicked condemned to hell. So, when I actually come across actual scriptures that confirm this, even one particular that actually defines damnation to the reader as being delivered up to the devil tgen there can be no doubt as to its meaning. Therefore, in a different scripture where it speaks of "greater damnation" it is speaking of a greater condemnation to hell. This is analogous to a prisoner receiving a greater condemnation, or sentence, than another. Irregardless, we can be assured that the greater condemnation spoken of is in regards to condemnation to hell as the scriptures verify that fact.

Again, not a single scripture? Gee, isn't this fun!

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I agree tgat there is an implied relatiinship with being dambed and slowed in ones progress. I also belueve theres an implied relationship with being in darkness and damnation. I also believe in the implied relationship with being in torment and damnation. But, standing alone, none of those relationships, or effects, are the definintion of damnation. You still havent shown where the one belief of the effect of being slowed in progressiin is "the" definition of damnation.

Well, that is welcomed progress. However, are you not capable of grasping that things are somewhat defined by their relationships to other things , and that stand-alone definitions may be inadequate for full understanding?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited March 21, 2018 by wenglund

[wenglund]

1 hour ago, person0 said:

It is already established LDS doctrine that this is correct.  Animals will inherit the Celestial Kingdom.

The same is true for the earth upon which they lived.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[The Folk Prophet]

Just now, changed said:

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall ... a very small flock?.... be made alive.

What's your objective here?

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

The state of being saved.

Being saved from what?

[The Folk Prophet]

15 minutes ago, changed said:

I just want to convince myself that all will be made alive - I want to have hope that heaven is not a nightmare - I want to have faith that g-d is loving and powerful enough to actually wipe away - not just some, but all tears.

Do you believe Christ is powerful enough to save us in our sins?

Think carefully before you answer this. I'm warning you. I am baiting you.

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, wenglund said:

Again, not a single scripture? Gee, isn't this fun!

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I already quoted the scripture. Do you want me to quote it again?

 

[The Folk Prophet]

4 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Being saved from what?

Well, now...that is the question, isn't it?

From outer darkness? From sin? From sorrow? From damnation? From being "dammed"? From the Telestial kingdom? From the Terrestrial kingdom? From Satan's wiles? From physical death? From punishment? From not being together forever with our eternal spouses? From imperfection? From stupidity?