Are animals damned?

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

The problem is one of principle. One of the effects of being damned is being punished to some degree, even to the point of limitations or compkete stopping of ones progress in the case of eternal damnation. But it isnt one of the effects that defines the word. As I related earlier you run into problems because the effects themselves are just part of the experience and those effects are also used to describe other things of which do not define the word. For instance, "torment" is another effect of damnation. But it isnt correct to say anyone in torment is in damnation. Does that make sense?

As such, the proper definition, according to principle, must apply. That proper definition is- punishment to hell in a future tense, or, the state of the wicked in hell. The effects of that damnation are things such as being in darkness, cut off from God, limited in ones progress, being in torment, being in darkness, etc.

As correctly applied, any mention of damnation/damned in the scriptures always refers to the punishment awaiting the wicked in hell. That punishment can be either shorter or longer, even permanantly in duration. At no time is damnation to be applied to the saved as the very thing they are saved from is damnation itself.

 

The problem really is (for you), according to Webster (1828), damnation is a sentence or condemnation. Sentences and condemnations are the curtailment of one’s right and privilege to act independently (agency). The Lord explains that moral agency is how “every man may act in doctrine and principle pertaining to futurity.” Where damnation and agency point toward the future state (not tense!) while in opposition to each other (see D&C 93:30-31), you should be able to see their respective connection with progress. Damnation is a stoppage of progress, agency is a catalyst of progress. Does that make sense? (Your comment on torment makes some sense in a very narrow way, but doesn't address the real problem about misunderstanding the fuller and deeper scope of what damnation means).

[zil]

4 minutes ago, changed said:

Symbiotic relationships do exist, survival conquers entropy - all that now exists has experienced more growth and progression than destruction and decay.  Life would cease to exist if brutality ruled - harmony exists within nature, spend some time outside - there are many beautiful things to see out there. 

The body of the mouse the cat killed is out there too.  And I'm thinking the mouse described this encounter as "brutal" not "beautiful" or "symbiotic".

[wenglund]

1 hour ago, changed said:

 

Man-created universities vs. g-d's naturally created educational system.  G-d uses families for education - families with young and old, male and female, and communities and nature with incredible diversity.

https://www.highmowingseeds.com/blog/companion-planting-utilize-natures-diversity-to-improve-the-health-of-your-garden/

Nature vs, a farm, nature does not segregate, trees grow with flowers and mushrooms, and all kinds of different birds and wildlife... 

Mankind is doing it wrong, nature has the correct approach for learning, and that includes diversity.

 

The divine and natural diversity that you mention is diversity of results, which occur not for the sake of diversity, but by way of freedom of choice and natural selection. It is the very thing that you mistakenly refer to as "castes" and "segregation." It is also the very thing to which the good, though deeply confused folks on the Left are adamantly opposed. .

Some of mankind is doing it right (i.e. those that follow the path of Christ), while others are doing it wrong (i.e. those who follow the world, and particularly the quasi-religion of socialism.

Either way, you missed the point of the analogy.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited March 16, 2018 by wenglund

[zil]

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“Man’s machinery makes things alike,” [Brigham Young] says. “God’s machinery gives to things which appear alike a pleasing difference.”

-- As quoted in Approaching Zion, chapter 1, by Hugh Nibley

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Does sameness depress you? The heavenly hosts, so we are told, all wear the same simple white garment—how monotonous! We all dress alike in the temple. Are you depressed to be there? No, the difference is in the person himself. It shines through as the individual spirit. The Father and the Son glowed exactly alike. Why doesn’t one wear black and the other wear green or something like that? No. It is the outward sameness that allows inward sameness, the spirit, to shine through. Such monotony is put to shame by the multibillion-dollar fashion industry of our times. The difference is that in heaven it is the individual spirit that shines through. What do we see in the temple, when we are all dressed alike? We must go out to the parking lot to assert our individuality in Mercedes, Cadillacs, and so forth. And which is the more depressing picture? The gaudy display of vanity fair is an attempt to cover up the spiritual and intellectual barrenness of the present world we live in.

-- from Chapter 15

"Diversity" in heaven will be between the individuals who have chosen to be there.  Having a kingdom filled only with others who have chosen to live the celestial law, while those who have chosen other laws are elsewhere, is not boring, stifling, or anything else negative - all the diversity one could want will be there.  See that Neal A. Maxwell quote I posted elsewhere for more on the same topic.  That the mortal brain cannot comprehend the glory of God does not make that glory somehow less than ideal.

[Vort]

15 minutes ago, changed said:

ll that now exists has experienced more growth and progression than destruction and decay.

This is true by definition. All life that has ever existed has experienced a vastly great deal more destruction and decay than growth and progression. If you limit things to just those organisms that are currently alive, your statement above is trivially true, and not useful.

16 minutes ago, changed said:

Life would cease to exist if brutality ruled

A glance at the dense and variegated life on our planet, where brutality rules, belies your assertion.

[wenglund]

6 minutes ago, changed said:

Circumstances under which the participants have no choice is the part that bothers me.  Most of His children are not raised with access to a church, do not know what it is to pray, cannot hear anything because there is nothing but silence for them.  

This might sound harsh, but many who refuse to help justify their lack of action by saying things like "they brought their pain on themselves, so their consequences are just" ... most people do not bring their pain on themselves - they are born into it.

The circumstances you find bothersome are done away in Christ. All mankind will be judged according to the law they were give, and will have full opportunity to choose to progress.

Nevertheless, because of free choice, and because of consequences and times and seasons and circumstances, there will invariably be a diversity of results (what you confusedly refer to as "castes" and "segregation") and thus an end to some peoples progression--unavoidably, though contrary to the desires of our Eternal Father.

The only way to avoid the diversity of results is Satan's plan, in which there is certainly equality, though equality in being miserable and cessation of progress..

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

15 minutes ago, Vort said:

This is true by definition. All life that has ever existed has experienced a vastly great deal more destruction and decay than growth and progression. If you limit things to just those organisms that are currently alive, your statement above is trivially true, and not useful.

In support of what you said, there is this:

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More than 99 percent of all species, amounting to over five billion species, that ever lived on Earth are estimated to be extinct. Estimates on the number of Earth's current species range from 10 million to 14 million, of which about 1.2 million have been documented and over 86 percent have not yet been described.

Extinction - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extinction

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[mordorbund]

29 minutes ago, changed said:

 

Everyone was a vegetarian in Eden - and I am pretty sure Eden had a diversity of life all living together... 

imagine Eden with no animals, no plants, no diversity of life forms - nothing but people who were all the same age, the same educational level, the same in all ways... not a very pretty picture.

 

Imagine a people returning to Eden in unity, not caring about diversity of age or education. The same in devotion, faith and worship.

It is beautiful, profound, and even godly.

[mordorbund]

31 minutes ago, changed said:

imagine Eden with no animals, no plants, no diversity of life forms - nothing but people who were all the same age, the same educational level, the same in all ways... not a very pretty picture.

Changed, I thought you were actually preaching against this. I mean, you seem to think that if only we all had the same educational opportunities then we would all choose to follow God. If that's the case, wouldn't your paradise be filled with people who all died at the same age and had the same educational experiences? When are you favorable towards diversity and when are you favorable towards unity?

[Traveler]

2 hours ago, changed said:

 

The only way to be all-knowing, is to become as g-d... without being all-knowing, choices are made in ignorance.  

What living being would not want love/peace/empathy/kindness?  only one who does not know any better.

 

 

How can a person that is ignorant make an actual choice, have a will or exercize agency?

 

The Traveler

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

 

How can a person that is ignorant make an actual choice, have a will or exercize agency?

Faith

[zil]

All who have control of their mind have some kind of choice.  The choices they make determine the next set of choices available to them.  Yes, the actions of others influence what choices are available, but we still have the ability to choose.  The question is, do you choose something better, something the same, or something worse.  We are all born with the Light of Christ (see here), whether we're raised by abusers or saints, there is something in us which knows the difference between helping someone and hurting them, between selfish and selfless, good and bad.  This is sufficient.

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2 Nephi 2:27 Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.

(The verses before this show that it is Christ's Atonement which makes us free - without his Atonement, we would be subject entirely to the consequences of our actions, dead forever.  But through him, we have repentance and forgiveness - a way past the natural consequences to something better - free.)

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2 Nephi 25:28 And now behold, my people, ye are a stiffnecked people; wherefore, I have spoken plainly unto you, that ye cannot misunderstand. And the words which I have spoken shall stand as a testimony against you; for they are sufficient to teach any man the right way; for the right way is to believe in Christ and deny him not; for by denying him ye also deny the prophets and the law.

We don't need to know everything now, only enough to set a pattern of choosing right or wrong (as best we know - which is all that matters, since one who has set the habit will continue it as they learn more).

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Helaman 14:

30 And now remember, remember, my brethren, that whosoever perisheth, perisheth unto himself; and whosoever doeth iniquity, doeth it unto himself; for behold, ye are free; ye are permitted to act for yourselves; for behold, God hath given unto you a knowledge and he hath made you free.

31 He hath given unto you that ye might know good from evil, and he hath given unto you that ye might choose life or death; and ye can do good and be restored unto that which is good, or have that which is good restored unto you; or ye can do evil, and have that which is evil restored unto you.

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Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord; and there is none else.

19 I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the Lord speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.

God has not kept knowledge of right and wrong secret.

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2 Corinthians 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

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Ether 12:27 And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.

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Moroni 10:32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

We don't need to know all now - we need only think, feel, speak, and act according to the knowledge we do have - and if we do, His grace is sufficient.  IMO, our agency makes us responsible for what we do with what we know.

[Rob Osborn]

So, I did some work from my notes. In the scriptures the words damned/damnation are dpoken of about 47 times. Of those they fall into several categories. They are- 1. Resurrection unto damnation. 2. Saved or damned, usually coupled with repentance and baptism. 3. Punishment that awaits the wicked after death.

We will start with #1.

10 Even this mortal shall put on immortality, and this corruption shall put on incorruption, and shall be brought to stand before the bar of God, to be judged of him according to their works whether they be good or whether they be evil—
            11 If they be good, to the resurrection of endless life and happiness; and if they be evil, to the resurrection of endless damnation, being delivered up to the devil, who hath subjected them, which is damnation—
            12 Having gone according to their own carnal wills and desires; having never called upon the Lord while the arms of mercy were extended towards them; for the arms of mercy were extended towards them, and they would not; they being warned of their iniquities and yet they would not depart from them; and they were commanded to repent and yet they would not repent. (Mosiah 16:10-11)

These scriptures are easy to understand- two resurrections, one unto life and endless happiness and the other to endless damnation, being delivered up unto the devil which is damnation. Other variations of this exists such as the resurrection of the just and unjust, etc. Now, for #2-

28 Therefore, prepare ye the way of the Lord, for the time is at hand that all men shall reap a reward of their works, according to that which they have been—if they have been righteous they shall reap the salvation of their souls, according to the power and deliverance of Jesus Christ; and if they have been evil they shall reap the damnation of their souls, according to the power and captivation of the devil. (Alma 9:28)

Pretty easy to understand also. Either reap salvation according to the power and deliverance of Jesus Christ, or reap damnation according to the power and captivation of the devil. Now, for #3

23 Wo unto all those that discomfort my people, and drive, and murder, and testify against them, saith the Lord of Hosts; a generation of vipers shall not escape the damnation of hell. (D&C 121:23)

Again, easy to understand. The Lord explains the punishment of the wick which is the damnation of hell.

All of the 47 or so scriptures that mention damned/damnation fall under these definitions. I could have placed all of them in each category and explain them but sufficeth to say, they all say pretty much the same thing as these. This clarifies my position that damnation is always defined as the condemnation to hell.

[Colirio]

Not a single one of the scriptures you quoted states that "damnation" can only have one meaning. 

 

 

Fortunately for us, we are not limited to the words of dead prophets in order to learn the gospel. 

President Ezra Taft Benson:

"Beware of those who would set up the dead prophets against the living prophets, for the living prophets always take precedence." 

 

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Colirio said:

Not a single one of the scriptures you quoted states that "damnation" can only have one meaning. 

Im all ears. Show me a scripture.

[Colirio]

And the idea has run its course as you are unable to produce a single scripture or LDS teaching that states that damnation cannot have more than one definition. 

 

LDS doctrine has been clearly shown by several in this thread (and a post by Gramps) that damnation, according to modern prophets and apostles, can also be defined as being stopped in one's progression.

 

As LDS doctrine is not limited to the standard works, indeed we have continuing revelation through modern prophets, your attempts to limit the sources for obtaining a definition has been successfully thwarted. 

 

As the burden of proof proof rests with you, and you are unable to so prove, I readily accept your concession. 

[Rob Osborn]

14 minutes ago, Colirio said:

And the idea has run its course as you are unable to produce a single scripture or LDS teaching that states that damnation cannot have more than one definition. 

 

LDS doctrine has been clearly shown by several in this thread (and a post by Gramps) that damnation, according to modern prophets and apostles, can also be defined as being stopped in one's progression.

 

As LDS doctrine is not limited to the standard works, indeed we have continuing revelation through modern prophets, your attempts to limit the sources for obtaining a definition has been successfully thwarted. 

 

As the burden of proof proof rests with you, and you are unable to so prove, I readily accept your concession. 

I keep posting scriptures, over and over. I already provided proof. No one is able to refute it with the scriptures- which is the very source of the words.

Edited March 17, 2018 by Rob Osborn

[Rob Osborn]

Another aspect to consider here is that damnation is a judgement pronounced upon someone by God. Man on earth cannot sentence a person into damnation. Damnation only comes after this life, once we are dead. Two damnations are spoken of. One damnation is temporary and takes place before final judgement. The other damnation is eternal damnation which occurs after final judgement. So, it must be asked, who partakes of this "eternal damnation"?

Lds doctrine teaches that everyone who is not exalted will receive this eternal damnation. But, is there scripture to back this up?

No, in fact, only those who are damned after resurrection and judgement are those who are cast into outer darkness. They suffer eternal damnation because they have removed themselves from any part of Jesus Christ.

It really is a strict dichotomy of either saved from Satan or eternally damned. Think about that- who all ends up being saved?

 

43 And thus did I, the Lord God, appoint unto man the days of his probation—that by his natural death he might be raised in immortality unto eternal life, even as many as would believe;
            44 And they that believe not unto eternal damnation; for they cannot be redeemed from their spiritual fall, because they repent not;
            45 For they love darkness rather than light, and their deeds are evil, and they receive their wages of whom they list to obey. (D&C 29:43-45)

[Colirio]

11 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I keep posting scriptures, over and over. I already provided proof. No one is able to refute it with the scriptures- which is the very source of the words.

Nope, you didn't. You couldn't provide one single scripture to say there cannot be more than one definition of damnation. 

 

The words of modern prophets refute it. 

 

The source of the words is God. 

[Rob Osborn]

10 minutes ago, Colirio said:

Nope, you didn't. You couldn't provide one single scripture to say there cannot be more than one definition of damnation. 

 

The words of modern prophets refute it. 

 

The source of the words is God. 

Okay, perhaps you could show scriptures that say otherwise.

[Traveler]

On ‎3‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 5:38 PM, The Folk Prophet said:

Faith

 

I actually think this is a pretty good answer but incomplete and could lead to misunderstanding.

 

The Traveler

[CV75]

On 3/16/2018 at 11:20 PM, Rob Osborn said:

So, I did some work from my notes. In the scriptures the words damned/damnation are dpoken of about 47 times. Of those they fall into several categories. They are- 1. Resurrection unto damnation. 2. Saved or damned, usually coupled with repentance and baptism. 3. Punishment that awaits the wicked after death.

By not responding to my post, I take it you are done discussing with me. Your "three categories" are three examples of halted eternal progress. Diminished agency is a halt in our eternal progress. I think you need to study the points I made here: Posted Friday at 04:40 PM rather than evade the topic of how expanded agency and damnation (diminished agency) both come from God (one a gift, one a punishment) in relation to the future estates we can choose to live in.

On 3/17/2018 at 2:07 AM, Rob Osborn said:

Another aspect to consider here is that damnation is a judgement pronounced upon someone by God.

Of course it is, for those who haven't considered it... But redirecting the posts to things like this evades the more salient issue I made here: Posted Friday at 04:40 PM . Misrepresenting LDS doctrine at best indicates you cannot or will not understand or acknowledge the subject matter fully in light of the Doctrine and Covenants. Are you trying to sway people who haven't considered basic revealed doctrine rather than address the points made by those who do?

[The Folk Prophet]

8 hours ago, Traveler said:

could lead to misunderstanding.

How so?

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

By not responding to my post, I take it you are done discussing with me. Your "three categories" are three examples of halted eternal progress. Diminished agency is a halt in our eternal progress. I think you need to study the points I made here: Posted Friday at 04:40 PM rather than evade the topic of how expanded agency and damnation (diminished agency) both come from God (one a gift, one a punishment) in relation to the future estates we can choose to live in.

Of course it is, for those who haven't considered it... But redirecting the posts to things like this evades the more salient issue I made here: Posted Friday at 04:40 PM . Misrepresenting LDS doctrine at best indicates you cannot or will not understand or acknowledge the subject matter fully in light of the Doctrine and Covenants. Are you trying to sway people who haven't considered basic revealed doctrine rather than address the points made by those who do?

If we just take the standard definition the church gives which is-

"The state of being stopped in one’s progress and denied access to the presence of God and His glory. Damnation exists in varying degrees. All who do not obtain the fulness of celestial exaltation will to some degree be limited in their progress and privileges, and they will be damned to that extent"

We can critique this and show this is incorrect based on principle. We know, from the scriptures, that a temporary damnation comes upon the wicked who depart this life and go into spirit prison. But under this definition it fails in principle. It can be strongly argued that a person in spirit prison who is repentant there and learning the gospel is not stopped in their progress. Yes, there is a level of suffering and torment but even they can, and most will, progress and be allowed out of that predicament. Part of tjis issue is that it appears, that due to this dilemma, the church definition does not recognize that temporary suffering in spirit prison as damnation.  It only designates damnation as coming after resurrection and judgement.

Of interest here is that there isnt any official doctrine in regards to eternal progression. And yet, they have already passed judgement in saying they wont be able to progress. Its just a continual dominoe effect of incorrectly defining the word. 

I think what should be done is to take the current dictionary definition that mainstream Christianity accepts as it relates to theology and see if it holds up. And, it does just that. And, its the same way Joseph Smith used it.

 

Edited March 19, 2018 by Rob Osborn

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

Misrepresenting LDS doctrine at best indicates you cannot or will not understand or acknowledge the subject matter fully in light of the Doctrine and Covenants.

The D&C actually strongly reinforces the definition of damnation as being condemned to hell.

Edited March 19, 2018 by Rob Osborn