Are animals damned?

[person0]

2 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

If we can all just go straight to scripture and get all the knowledge we need directly from there with the Holy Ghost then why do we have living apostles and prophets at all?

While I agree with you for the majority of this little back and forth here, I must say that technically we each can do this, but almost no one ever will.  Those that do, will be righteous enough to keep it to themselves and follow the living prophets anyway.

[person0]

2 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

From "Preach My Gospel"

"As you answer concerns, remember that our understanding comes from modern prophets—Joseph Smith and his successors—who receive direct revelation from God. Therefore, the first question for an investigator to answer is whether Joseph Smith was a prophet, and he or she can answer this question by reading and praying about the Book of Mormon."

I feel like we need a mic drop emoji as one of the 'like' options.  Haha!

Edited March 15, 2018 by person0

[person0]

6 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

That doesnt really work, you are applying a different principle-one of the effects of damnation to define itself. Thats no different than saying anyone in darkness is in a state of damnation and that of course is wrong.. Its about semantics and correctly identifying the qualifiers in words in how to correctly use them. Its a basic fundamental english mistake.

A river that is damned by a dam is condemned to not flow past the dam.  The only possible disconnect is that the dam itself is not the entity that places the damnation upon the river, it is the builder of the dam.  That said, it's not much of a disconnect because Heavenly Father is the one who inflicts a damned state upon us which damned state will dam us from progressing until the damning dam is removed due to our individual choices and actions have fulfilled the requirements to receive the effects of the atonement to un-damn us.

[Rob Osborn]

8 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

From "Preach My Gospel"

"As you answer concerns, remember that our understanding comes from modern prophets—Joseph Smith and his successors—who receive direct revelation from God. Therefore, the first question for an investigator to answer is whether Joseph Smith was a prophet, and he or she can answer this question by reading and praying about the Book of Mormon."

Yeah, it doesnt say after reading the BoM and praying to then seek clarification from the living prophet. Thats the whole point.

[Rob Osborn]

2 minutes ago, person0 said:

A river that is damned by a dam is condemned to not flow past the dam.  The only possible disconnect is that the dam itself is not the entity that places the damnation upon the river, it is the builder of the dam.  That said, it's not much of a disconnect because Heavenly Father is the one who inflicts a damned state upon us which damned state will dam us from progressing until the damning dam is removed due to our individual choices and actions have fulfilled the requirements to receive the effects of the atonement to un-damn us.

???

Why are you using the definition of one word in the use of another? Dam and damn are homonyms http://www.dictionary.com/browse/homonym

A river that is "dammed" (notice the different spelling) is either slowed or stopped. If it were possible that a river could be "damned" (notice the different spelling) it would mean it was somehow condemned and sent to hell.

[The Folk Prophet]

7 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Thats no different than saying anyone in darkness is in a state of damnation and that of course is wrong.

That "of course" is wrong?

"Of course" darkness is damnation and light is "salvation".

Christ is the "light" of the world. The word of the Lord is truth, and truth is light, and light is the Spirit of Jesus Christ, by which all men are saved. A man is saved no faster than he gets knowledge, which is truth, which is light.

Moreover:

D&C 38:5 "But behold, the residue of the wicked have I kept in chains of darkness until the judgment of the great day, which shall come at the end of the earth;"

And...really? The ultimate state of damnation is LITERALLY called "outer DARKNESS!"

[The Folk Prophet]

19 minutes ago, person0 said:

While I agree with you for the majority of this little back and forth here, I must say that technically we each can do this, but almost no one ever will.  Those that do, will be righteous enough to keep it to themselves and follow the living prophets anyway.

No. We cannot. God is not a liar. He has declare that He will not do anything unless He reveals his secrets to His prophets. His pattern is His pattern. We cannot go outside of it. Period.

We CANNOT find the truth without prophets.

Alright........so yeah..."technically" we could all become prophets in some sense of the word. But how, exactly, do we expect to do that if we've cast off the Lord's patterns, declared the scriptures superior to the living prophets, failed to heed or listen to those He has sent before us, etc?

So by a stretch of the word "technically" I'll loosely agree...except not really at all.

This is WELL established in scripture AND by the teachings of modern prophets. God will do His work through His chosen pattern, as He has declared He will.

D&C section 28 establishes this pattern as well in response to the Hiram Page incident.

[Rob Osborn]

1 minute ago, The Folk Prophet said:

That "of course" is wrong?

"Of course" darkness is damnation and light is "salvation".

Christ is the "light" of the world. The word of the Lord is truth, and truth is light, and light is the Spirit of Jesus Christ, by which all men are saved. A man is saved no faster than he gets knowledge, which is truth, which is light.

Moreover:

D&C 38:5 "But behold, the residue of the wicked have I kept in chains of darkness until the judgment of the great day, which shall come at the end of the earth;"

And...really? The ultimate state of damnation is LITERALLY called "outer DARKNESS!"

Once again, you are applying one of the effects of a word to define it. English dont work like that- it will screw things up. Lets see, how can I make an analogy here...okay, here-

Suppose you got injured and you lost a leg and it caused you to be in a state of torment. Now, suppose that a serial killer was in prison and confined in a dark room and he too was in torment. Is their "torment" the same punishment or trial? No. Just so, one of the effects of damnation is to be in torment. So, we know that the torment that the person with his leg cut off is not the same torment as a damned soul in hell. Therefore, its not proper to define a word such as "damnation" solely by one of its effects.

Do you now understand why we have principles and rules in english and thus where this problem is?

[The Folk Prophet]

1 minute ago, Rob Osborn said:

English dont work like that

Right...I'm going to take English lessons from someone saying "English dont work like that"

[Rob Osborn]

3 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

No. We cannot. God is not a liar. He has declare that He will not do anything unless He reveals his secrets to His prophets. His pattern is His pattern. We cannot go outside of it. Period.

We CANNOT find the truth without prophets.

Alright........so yeah..."technically" we could all become prophets in some sense of the word. But how, exactly, do we expect to do that if we've cast off the Lord's patterns, declared the scriptures superior to the living prophets, failed to heed or listen to those He has sent before us, etc?

So by a stretch of the word "technically" I'll loosely agree...except not really at all.

This is WELL established in scripture AND by the teachings of modern prophets. God will do His work through His chosen pattern, as He has declared He will.

D&C section 28 establishes this pattern as well in response to the Hiram Page incident.

So then, when I read the scriptures and I come accross this verse-

"9 And he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, and he that believeth not shall be damned." (D&C 68:9)

and the Holy Ghost testifies to me the truth that these will be condemned to hell that it is incorrect?

[Rob Osborn]

5 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Right...I'm going to take English lessons from someone saying "English dont work like that"

I give up. If all you want to do is deflect then I guess we are done.

[person0]

16 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

He has declare that He will not do anything unless He reveals his secrets to His prophets.

I really don't think the intent of what I said contradicts how you just responded.  Here is a terribly drawn infographic that hopefully helps communicate what I mean:

Do you really not believe this type of situation has happened?

Quote

To whom he grants this privilege of seeing and knowing for themselves; (D&C 76:117)

I'm sure if you and I were to see the vision of D&C 76, we would understand a lot more about it than what is written in the scriptures or by any prophets, ancient or modern.

[The Folk Prophet]

1 minute ago, Rob Osborn said:

I give up. If all you want to do is deflect then I guess we are done.

Deflect, huh?

You're literally (and I mean literally literally, not figuratively literally) trying to teach me how English works.

I would say my response was spot on (if a little snarky and, granted, making fun of what was clearly a typo) and no deflection whatsoever. Despite the typos, which happen to all, your understanding of English does not strike me as impressive. Your understanding or language in general seems moderately shallow. You are retconning your ideas to fit your preconceived notions of how things work just as much as are those you're accusing of doing the same, but you're blind to the fact you're doing it as well, and others doing it have living apostles and prophets behind their doing so.

[The Folk Prophet]

5 minutes ago, person0 said:

I really don't think the intent of what I said contradicts how you just responded.  Here is a terribly drawn infographic that hopefully helps communicate what I mean:

Do you really not believe this type of situation has happened?

I'm sure if you and I were to see the vision of D&C 76, we would understand a lot more about it than what is written in the scriptures or by any prophets, ancient or modern.

I think we'd need to establish the difference between "a" truth and "THE TRUTH". With the former...yes. We know instances of that have happened. With the latter, no.

Edit: What doesn't happen, however, even with "a" truth is the Spirit telling Rob that his view that contradicts everything modern prophets and apostles teach and believe is right.

Edited March 15, 2018 by The Folk Prophet

[The Folk Prophet]

21 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

So then, when I read the scriptures and I come accross this verse-

"9 And he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, and he that believeth not shall be damned." (D&C 68:9)

and the Holy Ghost testifies to me the truth that these will be condemned to hell that it is incorrect?

Based on your understanding of what hell is...yes...incorrect. The Spirit has never testified to you that the prophet's and apostle's teachings on the plan of salvation are wrong. Of that much, I am quite certain.

As is well established, you may believe whatever you want. Don't try and pretend like it's LDS doctrine though when if flies in the face of the plain teachings of our authorized leaders.

[The Folk Prophet]

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Yeah, it doesnt say after reading the BoM and praying to then seek clarification from the living prophet. Thats the whole point.

It doesn't?

"remember that our understanding comes from modern prophets"

Edited March 15, 2018 by The Folk Prophet

[The Folk Prophet]

@person0 after re-reading what I said and your response to it I get where you're coming from. I was thinking in terms of the whole.

That being said, I would still say that, in general, the living prophets and apostles are one of the key means whereby we can avoid deception. Receiving revelation that is contrary to our living prophet's and apostles' words is a SURE way to know we are being deceived by a force other than the Spirit of God.

[Rob Osborn]

20 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

It doesn't?

 

Where did I say this-

 

"remember that our understanding comes from modern prophets"

[Rob Osborn]

24 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

The Spirit has never testified to you that the prophet's and apostle's teachings on the plan of salvation are wrong. Of that much, I am quite certain

So, when I saked for the truth in regards to damnation (and believe me, Ive asked) in my prayers the spirit witnesses to me that it means condemnation to hell that you are saying my witness is wrong?

[Guest]

I think we would be wise to apply the logic of Pascal's Wager here.

Let's assume for the sake of argument that Rob is right.  If we are wrong, there are no consequences because we were just following prophets called by the Lord and the Lord did not see it fit to reveal otherwise to His prophets.  Besides, we, along with nearly everyone else, will be in the Celestial Kingdom.  Everything would be fine.

However, if we are right and Rob is wrong, then he is playing a potentially risky game by openly questioning the prophets.  For an extreme example, look at Kate Kelly, whose "harmless" dalliances with women and the priesthood led her to lose everything.  She honestly thought she was right and the prophet was wrong, that a new revelation would fix everything, and where did it lead her?  

For this reason, I personally think we would all do well to stay within the mainstream teachings of the Church and follow the teachings of the living prophet.

Edited March 15, 2018 by DoctorLemon

[The Folk Prophet]

30 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Where did I say this-

 

"remember that our understanding comes from modern prophets"

I didn't say you said that. Just because the quote box says "Rob Osborn said", don't blame me for the forum's quoting system imperfections.

[The Folk Prophet]

30 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

So, when I saked for the truth in regards to damnation (and believe me, Ive asked) in my prayers the spirit witnesses to me that it means condemnation to hell that you are saying my witness is wrong?

I said what I said. I'll repeat it, though I'm sure you'll continue to read things into it that aren't there. The Spirit has never testified to you that the prophet's and apostle's teachings on the plan of salvation are wrong. Of that much, I am quite certain

[wenglund]

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

But its wrong to interpret the scriptures as you explain. The word "damned" stands independently on its own having only one meaning. Within "damnation" are several manifestations. What are they?

1. Removed from direct presence ofHeavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and Holy Ghost

2. In torment

3. In darkness

4. Confined and within Satans grasp and presence

5. In hell

Now, notice that I didnt put down being "stopped in ones progress". Why? Because, even a spirit in prison can progress from that judgement into salvation because of the gospel preached to them and their compliance and obedience to those laws and ordinances of the gospel. So, even someone who is damned is not stopped in their progress towards salvation. Thus, being "stopped in ones progress" is not the correct definition of damnation. One must allow principle and law to rule.

Do you see where Im coming from and why?

I understand where you are coming from, but your thinking is "damned" in comprehension.

1. Satan and a 3rd of the hosts of heaven are stopped in their progression unto Godhood  contrary to the plan.. Even fallen man is temporarily stooped in their progression unto Godhead except or until they repent and receive the necessary ordinances of salvation and exaltation.

2. Those in torment are stopped (temporarily or otherwise) in their progression unto Godly joy., contrary to the plan.

3. Those in darkness are stopped (temporarily or otherwise) in their progression unto Godly light, contrary to the plan.

4. Those confined to Satan's grasp and presence are stopped (temporarily or otherwise) in their progression unto Godly presence, contrary to the plan.

5. Those in hell are stopped (temporarily or otherwise) from progression to Godly heaven., contrary to the plan.

For those with eyes to see and ears to hear, there are layers of meaning, particularly given the added LDS context of the Plan of Progression.

As always, you are free to believe otherwise.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Osborn]

34 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I didn't say you said that. Just because the quote box says "Rob Osborn said", don't blame me for the forum's quoting system imperfections.

But if someone else is reading it creates a myriad of problems and back and forth corrections.

[The Folk Prophet]

1 minute ago, Rob Osborn said:

But if someone else is reading it creates a myriad of problems and back and forth corrections.

Okay. I'll try and correct it.

Edit: Done

Edited March 15, 2018 by The Folk Prophet