The Folk Prophet Posted April 20, 2018 Report Share Posted April 20, 2018 15 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said: Two words come to my mind- Manipulative: serving or intended to control or influence others in an artful and often unfair or selfish way Obtuse: annoyingly insensitive or slow to understand I think you are being manipulative and using trickery in an attempt to discredit me. I think you are being obtuse in that you are annoyingly insensitive. We both know where we both stand. You seem to just follow me around and announce on every thread how horrible I am and hi-jack every thread I post in. You fit the definition of those two words to perfection. You didn't answer my question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted April 20, 2018 Report Share Posted April 20, 2018 41 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: So why did we have to go through all that? Im not sure, you misunderstood is all I can think of, or, you intentionally were baiting me. 43 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: Why did it take so many posts to get to a simple answer -- "I meant teaching others in a role as a teacher at church"? Because you dont pay attention? I dont know honestly, Im not you. 45 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: Tell me this -- seriously -- do you really believe I'm lying? Do you truly believe that I am intentionally saying things that I do not believe to be true? I know you think what I am saying in many cases is inaccurate. But for me to be lying it must be deliberately untruthful, right? Do you believe I am deliberately being untruthful in the things I say? I think it is lying when a person knowingly falsly accuses another and is manipulative and using trickery to discredit another. Its giving a false report. In the gospel its a commandment- Thou shalt not bear false witness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted April 20, 2018 Report Share Posted April 20, 2018 41 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: So why did we have to go through all that? Im not sure, you misunderstood is all I can think of, or, you intentionally were baiting me. 43 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: Why did it take so many posts to get to a simple answer -- "I meant teaching others in a role as a teacher at church"? Because you dont pay attention? I dont know honestly, Im not you. 45 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: Tell me this -- seriously -- do you really believe I'm lying? Do you truly believe that I am intentionally saying things that I do not believe to be true? I know you think what I am saying in many cases is inaccurate. But for me to be lying it must be deliberately untruthful, right? Do you believe I am deliberately being untruthful in the things I say? I think it is lying when a person knowingly falsly accuses another and is manipulative and using trickery to discredit another. Its giving a false report. In the gospel its a commandment- Thou shalt not bear false witness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted April 20, 2018 Report Share Posted April 20, 2018 41 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: So why did we have to go through all that? Im not sure, you misunderstood is all I can think of, or, you intentionally were baiting me. 43 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: Why did it take so many posts to get to a simple answer -- "I meant teaching others in a role as a teacher at church"? Because you dont pay attention? I dont know honestly, Im not you. 45 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: Tell me this -- seriously -- do you really believe I'm lying? Do you truly believe that I am intentionally saying things that I do not believe to be true? I know you think what I am saying in many cases is inaccurate. But for me to be lying it must be deliberately untruthful, right? Do you believe I am deliberately being untruthful in the things I say? I think it is lying when a person knowingly falsly accuses another and is manipulative and using trickery to discredit another. Its giving a false report. In the gospel its a commandment- Thou shalt not bear false witness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted April 20, 2018 Report Share Posted April 20, 2018 41 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: So why did we have to go through all that? Im not sure, you misunderstood is all I can think of, or, you intentionally were baiting me. 43 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: Why did it take so many posts to get to a simple answer -- "I meant teaching others in a role as a teacher at church"? Because you dont pay attention? I dont know honestly, Im not you. 45 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: Tell me this -- seriously -- do you really believe I'm lying? Do you truly believe that I am intentionally saying things that I do not believe to be true? I know you think what I am saying in many cases is inaccurate. But for me to be lying it must be deliberately untruthful, right? Do you believe I am deliberately being untruthful in the things I say? I think it is lying when a person knowingly falsly accuses another and is manipulative and using trickery to discredit another. Its giving a false report. In the gospel its a commandment- Thou shalt not bear false witness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted April 20, 2018 Report Share Posted April 20, 2018 41 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: So why did we have to go through all that? Im not sure, you misunderstood is all I can think of, or, you intentionally were baiting me. 43 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: Why did it take so many posts to get to a simple answer -- "I meant teaching others in a role as a teacher at church"? Because you dont pay attention? I dont know honestly, Im not you. 45 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: Tell me this -- seriously -- do you really believe I'm lying? Do you truly believe that I am intentionally saying things that I do not believe to be true? I know you think what I am saying in many cases is inaccurate. But for me to be lying it must be deliberately untruthful, right? Do you believe I am deliberately being untruthful in the things I say? I think it is lying when a person knowingly falsly accuses another and is manipulative and using trickery to discredit another. Its giving a false report. In the gospel its a commandment- Thou shalt not bear false witness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted April 20, 2018 Report Share Posted April 20, 2018 41 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: So why did we have to go through all that? Im not sure, you misunderstood is all I can think of, or, you intentionally were baiting me. 43 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: Why did it take so many posts to get to a simple answer -- "I meant teaching others in a role as a teacher at church"? Because you dont pay attention? I dont know honestly, Im not you. 45 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: Tell me this -- seriously -- do you really believe I'm lying? Do you truly believe that I am intentionally saying things that I do not believe to be true? I know you think what I am saying in many cases is inaccurate. But for me to be lying it must be deliberately untruthful, right? Do you believe I am deliberately being untruthful in the things I say? I think it is lying when a person knowingly falsly accuses another and is manipulative and using trickery to discredit another. Its giving a false report. In the gospel its a commandment- Thou shalt not bear false witness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted April 20, 2018 Report Share Posted April 20, 2018 41 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: So why did we have to go through all that? Im not sure, you misunderstood is all I can think of, or, you intentionally were baiting me. 43 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: Why did it take so many posts to get to a simple answer -- "I meant teaching others in a role as a teacher at church"? Because you dont pay attention? I dont know honestly, Im not you. 45 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: Tell me this -- seriously -- do you really believe I'm lying? Do you truly believe that I am intentionally saying things that I do not believe to be true? I know you think what I am saying in many cases is inaccurate. But for me to be lying it must be deliberately untruthful, right? Do you believe I am deliberately being untruthful in the things I say? I think it is lying when a person knowingly falsly accuses another and is manipulative and using trickery to discredit another. Its giving a false report. In the gospel its a commandment- Thou shalt not bear false witness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted April 20, 2018 Report Share Posted April 20, 2018 41 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: So why did we have to go through all that? Im not sure, you misunderstood is all I can think of, or, you intentionally were baiting me. 43 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: Why did it take so many posts to get to a simple answer -- "I meant teaching others in a role as a teacher at church"? Because you dont pay attention? I dont know honestly, Im not you. 45 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: Tell me this -- seriously -- do you really believe I'm lying? Do you truly believe that I am intentionally saying things that I do not believe to be true? I know you think what I am saying in many cases is inaccurate. But for me to be lying it must be deliberately untruthful, right? Do you believe I am deliberately being untruthful in the things I say? I think it is lying when a person knowingly falsly accuses another and is manipulative and using trickery to discredit another. Its giving a false report. In the gospel its a commandment- Thou shalt not bear false witness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted April 20, 2018 Report Share Posted April 20, 2018 41 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: So why did we have to go through all that? Im not sure, you misunderstood is all I can think of, or, you intentionally were baiting me. 43 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: Why did it take so many posts to get to a simple answer -- "I meant teaching others in a role as a teacher at church"? Because you dont pay attention? I dont know honestly, Im not you. 45 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: Tell me this -- seriously -- do you really believe I'm lying? Do you truly believe that I am intentionally saying things that I do not believe to be true? I know you think what I am saying in many cases is inaccurate. But for me to be lying it must be deliberately untruthful, right? Do you believe I am deliberately being untruthful in the things I say? I think it is lying when a person knowingly falsly accuses another and is manipulative and using trickery to discredit another. Its giving a false report. In the gospel its a commandment- Thou shalt not bear false witness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted April 20, 2018 Report Share Posted April 20, 2018 41 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: So why did we have to go through all that? Im not sure, you misunderstood is all I can think of, or, you intentionally were baiting me. 43 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: Why did it take so many posts to get to a simple answer -- "I meant teaching others in a role as a teacher at church"? Because you dont pay attention? I dont know honestly, Im not you. 45 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: Tell me this -- seriously -- do you really believe I'm lying? Do you truly believe that I am intentionally saying things that I do not believe to be true? I know you think what I am saying in many cases is inaccurate. But for me to be lying it must be deliberately untruthful, right? Do you believe I am deliberately being untruthful in the things I say? I think it is lying when a person knowingly falsly accuses another and is manipulative and using trickery to discredit another. Its giving a false report. In the gospel its a commandment- Thou shalt not bear false witness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 20, 2018 Report Share Posted April 20, 2018 (edited) 31 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: You didn't answer my question. He never answers questions. What's new? Why do you think I don't talk to him anymore? It's never a discussion. It's a lecture. Edited April 20, 2018 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted April 20, 2018 Report Share Posted April 20, 2018 9 minutes ago, Carborendum said: He never answers questions. What's new? Why do you think I don't talk to him anymore? It's never a discussion. It's a lecture. Anything else from the peanut gallery? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zil Posted April 20, 2018 Report Share Posted April 20, 2018 9 hours ago, Rob Osborn said: We both know where we both stand. You seem to just follow me around and announce on every thread how horrible wrong I am [about the three degrees of glory] Fixed that for you, and if he didn't do it, one of the rest of us would have to because those of us who believe in the teachings of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints can't stand to see your contrary preaching go unanswered. You don't seem to understand that what you say here is no different than if you said it in a Sunday School class, it's just that here your class is larger, and many of them are sitting in the corners thinking, but not replying (I'm talking about lurkers and people who don't even have an account). You don't seem to understand that preaching anything other than official doctrine here is just as wrong as preaching it in Sunday School, and just as likely to lead someone to question the truthfulness of the Church and the trustworthiness of the prophets and apostles. You are doing damage. You've been doing damage for 1.5 years. Others here have been trying to do damage control, but you won't stop doing damage. Then you complain about the people doing damage control. Is it not obvious that there will always be someone following you around here doing damage control? You are the only one with the power to stop it. You claim that you have some truth the leaders of the Church don't understand. You claim that you have some work to finish before you can forward your understanding on to said leaders. SO WHY ARE YOU WASTING YOUR TIME HERE INSTEAD OF DOING THAT WORK!? I personally no longer think those are truthful statements from you (unless you have some kind of obsessive disorder which forces you to keep banging your head against the wall here). I believe you are either just willfully trying to keep Mormons from meaningful discussion on the plan of salvation, or you are actually gathering arguments contrary to your view in order to help you figure out how to counter those arguments in order to perfect your fight for your binary view of heaven and hell. (I know, you'll make all kinds of "good Mormon" claims and that you're telling the truth, but I don't believe them any more. No one is this persistent in pounding against people who are obviously never going to give.) Midwest LDS, Colirio and The Folk Prophet 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted April 20, 2018 Report Share Posted April 20, 2018 @zil you liar! zil 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 20, 2018 Report Share Posted April 20, 2018 1 hour ago, zil said: No one is this persistent in pounding against people who are obviously never going to give.) Well, TFP is trying to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted April 20, 2018 Report Share Posted April 20, 2018 9 minutes ago, Carborendum said: Well, TFP is trying to be. Not really. I've stated several times that I consider him a lost cause at the moment. My entire objective is defense of the doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I defend them, as @zil explained, for others who might be led astray by a compelling, quasi-logical arguments that appeals to the carnal mind. Anyone with any brains knows that you can dig into doctrine and find holes and contradictions and problem if you take things strictly from a scientific mental approach. Rob has found one that's become his hobby horse and leads him to look beyond the mark accordingly, but there are hundreds of others that the anti Mormons and progressives happily pick apart all the live long day. Of course there are counters, just as there are to Rob's views ... but they are apologetics seeking to explain things from a faith-first standpoint. Without that faith-first standpoint many of the arguments have a solid logical standing. Rob has no faith in the plan of salvation as it is taught by the church. Logically, he has good arguments (usually...sometimes he gets quite blinded by his own biases...as most do). And then he mocks and disparages the idea of trusting in our living prophets and apostles -- because there's no reason to believe they teach the truth -- they're mortal men and prone to mistakes after all.... Faithless. (Of course he also blatantly mis-characterizes the faithful as being blind and ignorantly accepting every word ever spoken by any church leader as absolute eternal truth...which none of us do...while complaining how we're mis-characterizing him as he goes about working to tear down the doctrines of the church.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted April 20, 2018 Report Share Posted April 20, 2018 1 hour ago, zil said: Fixed that for you, and if he didn't do it, one of the rest of us would have to because those of us who believe in the teachings of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints can't stand to see your contrary preaching go unanswered. You don't seem to understand that what you say here is no different than if you said it in a Sunday School class, it's just that here your class is larger, and many of them are sitting in the corners thinking, but not replying (I'm talking about lurkers and people who don't even have an account). You don't seem to understand that preaching anything other than official doctrine here is just as wrong as preaching it in Sunday School, and just as likely to lead someone to question the truthfulness of the Church and the trustworthiness of the prophets and apostles. You are doing damage. You've been doing damage for 1.5 years. Others here have been trying to do damage control, but you won't stop doing damage. Then you complain about the people doing damage control. Is it not obvious that there will always be someone following you around here doing damage control? You are the only one with the power to stop it. You claim that you have some truth the leaders of the Church don't understand. You claim that you have some work to finish before you can forward your understanding on to said leaders. SO WHY ARE YOU WASTING YOUR TIME HERE INSTEAD OF DOING THAT WORK!? I personally no longer think those are truthful statements from you (unless you have some kind of obsessive disorder which forces you to keep banging your head against the wall here). I believe you are either just willfully trying to keep Mormons from meaningful discussion on the plan of salvation, or you are actually gathering arguments contrary to your view in order to help you figure out how to counter those arguments in order to perfect your fight for your binary view of heaven and hell. (I know, you'll make all kinds of "good Mormon" claims and that you're telling the truth, but I don't believe them any more. No one is this persistent in pounding against people who are obviously never going to give.) Well, thats your take. Each to their own. Lets get back on topic please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 20, 2018 Report Share Posted April 20, 2018 (edited) 15 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: Not really. I've stated several times that I consider him a lost cause at the moment. My entire objective is defense of the doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I defend them, as @zil explained, for others who might be led astray by a compelling, quasi-logical arguments that appeals to the carnal mind. Anyone with any brains knows that you can dig into doctrine and find holes and contradictions and problem if you take things strictly from a scientific mental approach. Rob has found one that's become his hobby horse and leads him to look beyond the mark accordingly, but there are hundreds of others that the anti Mormons and progressives happily pick apart all the live long day. Of course there are counters, just as there are to Rob's views ... but they are apologetics seeking to explain things from a faith-first standpoint. Without that faith-first standpoint many of the arguments have a solid logical standing. Rob has no faith in the plan of salvation as it is taught by the church. Logically, he has good arguments (usually...sometimes he gets quite blinded by his own biases...as most do). And then he mocks and disparages the idea of trusting in our living prophets and apostles -- because there's no reason to believe they teach the truth -- they're mortal men and prone to mistakes after all.... Faithless. (Of course he also blatantly mis-characterizes the faithful as being blind and ignorantly accepting every word ever spoken by any church leader as absolute eternal truth...which none of us do...while complaining how we're mis-characterizing him as he goes about working to tear down the doctrines of the church.) I do recognize the need to respond to the arguments for the benefit of lurkers. And, yes, I see you doing that. I tend to believe that Rob's arguments are a perfect example of what is really meant by "religious argument". It is not just that it is based on a religious principle. A religious argument is one that is based on fundamental assumptions that are never brought into the discussion and yet, people wonder why they're arguing. The "quasi-logic" you refer to is that if ANYone starts with certain fundamental principles to support their notion, they can make ANYthing sound logical. But one would have to go back to the fundamental principles and truly ask if those are correct. The argument here should not be about his claims or his logic, but about the foundational principles. He has started with the fundamental notion that he is endowed with "revelation on doctrine that has not been confirmed by the Spirit" (however that could possibly be possible, I don't know) which is unknown to the rest of Mormondom -- including the prophets. And it is his duty to inform everyone of these issues and why only his interpretations are the correct ones. We start with the fundamental notion that the method of establishing doctrine has been outlined (as I've previously stated). And we follow that system. These two fundamental understandings of truth are mutually exclusive. The real problem here is not that his arguments may sound logical. The real problem is that the only thing that makes his arguments logical is that he starts with false foundational principles. He can declare 100 times a day that he fully supports and sustains the prophet and apostles. But when he takes all the rest of the time explaining why they're wrong/mistaken/ignorant then that would bring into scrutiny the truthfulness of the initial claim of faithfulness. Edited April 20, 2018 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zil Posted April 20, 2018 Report Share Posted April 20, 2018 2 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said: Lets get back on topic please. To what end? Honestly, do you see something positive as having happened in the 1.5 years you've been doing this here? If so, can you explain what positive thing has happened? If you don't see anything positive as having happened in the past 1.5 years of doing this, can you explain what you hope to accomplish by continuing it? The Folk Prophet 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted April 20, 2018 Report Share Posted April 20, 2018 5 minutes ago, Carborendum said: I do recognize the need to respond to the arguments for the benefit of lurkers. And, yes, I see you doing that. I tend to believe that Rob's arguments are a perfect example of what is really meant by "religious argument". It is not just that it is based on a religious principle. A religious argument is one that is based on fundamental assumptions that are never brought into the discussion and yet, people wonder why they're arguing. The "quasi-logic" you refer to is that if ANYone starts with certain fundamental principles to support their notion, they can make ANYthing sound logical. But one would have to go back to the fundamental principles and truly ask if those are correct. The argument here should not be about his claims or his logic, but about the foundational principles. He has started with the fundamental notion that he is endowed with "revelation on doctrine that has not been confirmed by the Spirit" (however that could possibly be possible, I don't know) which is unknown to the rest of Mormondom -- including the prophets. And it is his duty to inform everyone of these issues and why only his interpretations are the correct ones. We start with the fundamental notion that the method of establishing doctrine has been outlined (as I've previously stated). And we follow that system. These two fundamental understandings of truth are mutually exclusive. The real problem here is not that his arguments may sound logical. The real problem is that the only thing that makes his arguments logical is that he starts with false foundational principles. He can declare 100 times a day that he fully supports and sustains the prophet and apostles. But when he takes all the rest of the time explaining why they're wrong/mistaken/ignorant then that would bring into scrutiny the truthfulness of the initial claim of faithfulness. Dont bear false witness against me. You dont know me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted April 20, 2018 Report Share Posted April 20, 2018 5 minutes ago, zil said: To what end? Honestly, do you see something positive as having happened in the 1.5 years you've been doing this here? If so, can you explain what positive thing has happened? If you don't see anything positive as having happened in the past 1.5 years of doing this, can you explain what you hope to accomplish by continuing it? Maybe you havent noticed but I like to comment on a myriad of topics. My worldview may be different than others but my objective in pursuit is the same- findibg the truth. Lets get along and move forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zil Posted April 20, 2018 Report Share Posted April 20, 2018 3 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said: Maybe you havent noticed but I like to comment on a myriad of topics. My worldview may be different than others but my objective in pursuit is the same- findibg the truth. Lets get along and move forward. Dodge. Sigh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted April 20, 2018 Report Share Posted April 20, 2018 25 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: Rob has no faith in the plan of salvation as it is taught by the church. I believe the scriptures. I believe the temple. I have a different view of them. I have faith we have the most correct plan of all the churches. Are their some flaws? Probably, but that doesnt diminish my faith but rather bolsters it knowing God reveals line upon line. We will get there. JohnsonJones 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 20, 2018 Report Share Posted April 20, 2018 Just now, zil said: Dodge. Sigh. Like I said. He never actually answers questions. He think he does. But as you say, it is simply a jade's trick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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