Tolerant liberals say you can't compliment a conservative friend

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

47 minutes ago, Vort said:

Funny, then, that it's so often the leftists who invoke God either to support their own opinions ("Jesus would have been a DEMOCRAT and supported the welfare state!") or try to shame their political enemies ("I thought you claimed you were a CHRISTIAN!").

Its true. As I said there are problems on BOTH sides.  There's also good on both sides.

[Guest MormonGator]

1 hour ago, Vort said:

I have lived in the Seattle area for 23 years. Do you really believe I have not talked extensively to "them"?

Your experience is just vastly different than any other I've heard. Maybe it's you? Or the people you live by? 

1 hour ago, Vort said:

Conservatives tend to read and watch liberal news sources far more than liberals read or watch so-called conservative sources.

Not from my experience. 

Edited August 2, 2018 by MormonGator

[anatess2]

49 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Your experience is just vastly different than any other I've heard. Maybe it's you? Or the people you live by? 

It's Seattle.  That's the prevailing attitude in Seattle.

Just like the prevailing attitude of Jackson, Mississippi is not-black-friendly even if you can name several white friends in Jackson who doesn't have that attitude.

[LePeel]

13 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

I believe that providing health care for all citizens will result in more productivity, happier people and less crime. 

What makes you think a state system will work here when it doesn't even work in Canada or Europe? It will bankrupt the United States and kill the people it deems not worth serving like it does in Great Britain.

13 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

I believe in taxing these people with a flat tax so that they are not getting the benefits of being here for free. 

What makes you think you're going to tax foreign nationals occupying the US when you don't even know who they are? Or what if they're living in Democratic santcuary cities?

13 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

I believe that we need to find a way to make college more affordable. 

If you want to lower tuitions, stop paying for tuitions. All the university will do is raise the cost of attending in order to get more of that free money. Unless you want to control prices? That's illegal.

13 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

 

I believe in reducing military spending by 50%and spending that money on infrastructure and renewable energy. Shedding our reliance on dirty fuel sources.

The United States needs to maintain overwhelming military power. Don't underestimate the importance of US hegemony. When Europe falls, and from the way things are going, it will fall, we will be the last western power on earth. We need to be able to fight a global war, nearly by ourselves, against the Chinese, the Russians, and their allies.

Infrastructure isn't a Federal duty and it needs to stay out. The only viable renewable energy is nuclear power, but alas, the Left opposes everything good and convenient. Fossil fuels are good for the poor, because they're cheap and energy dense. They could not care less about stuffy, feel good agendas to hurt oil. Besides, what, are you concerned about global warming? It will not impede the purposes of the Lord, Co2 is a non-issue. And if you're embarrassed by this fact, get on your knees.

13 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

I believe that strong families are crucial for the health of the nation. 

I don't believe in a minimum needs to be $15 an hour. I believe that if you want more money, go out and do the jobs that pay more. 

Why are you a liberal?

13 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

I would label myself liberal in the sense that I am looking for better ways of doing things. Open minded to new ideas. 

You see the millennia old zombified corpse of Government "solutions" but with a new coat of corpse makeup and declare "WOAH, how NEW! How PROGRESSIVE!! Why didn't anyone think of this before!?!?"

Edited August 3, 2018 by LePeel

[Guest MormonGator]

@LePeel-I don't speak for @Lost Boy of course, but some of us only seem liberal because many people here are skewed to the far right. I'm actually a registered republican, shockingly. 

[Guest Scott]

Quote

Please show me a sizable segment of the American liberal wing that:

• Quote

  is pro-life

  I already said that most liberals are pro choice.  I agree with you on this one.

• Quote

  champions traditional family and marriage

  Most of them do.   Just because someone is for gay marriage doesn't make them against a traditional family and marriage. Most liberals have and support traditional marriages.  You can support both.
  
  Show me all of these people, even if they are for gay marriage, that are against people having a traditional marriage if they choose too.   I don't know any liberals who think that, but maybe some are out there.

• Quote

  decries sexual promiscuity (in general, not just in specific cases)

  Most conservatives don't do this anymore either. Otherwise they would all be decrying Trump.    Republicans are supposed to be the party of family values and morals.   Which is worse, saying that you are the party of moral high ground and doing the opposite (extreme hypocrisy) or not claiming to be the party of family values and morals in the first place?

• Quote

  embraces and encourages religion

  All liberals I know of support the freedom of religion as long as it is in line with the Separation of Church and State.    No liberal has ever told me that I couldn't go to church.  Even if he or she was an atheist and liberal, he or she has never told me that I couldn't go to Church.

• Quote

  champions work and self-reliance as foundational principles of society and its members

  I agree with you.   This is the biggest thing don't agree with liberals on.  As mentioned I am an Independent.

Now, show me the conservative right wing who has done the following:

• Champions environmental protection.   The Church leadership and God both COMMAND us to be wise in environmental stewardship and conservation:
  
  https://www.lds.org/topics/environmental-stewardship-and-conservation?lang=eng 
  
  Conservatives act like it is government overreach.  If so, so are laws against murder and terrorism.   Is that government overreach?   Pollution, even in the US kills and harms far more people that terrorism.  So, why are conservatives for protections against terrorism, but (overall) not for laws protecting people's life and health?     
  
  The most extreme way you can take away someone's freedom is to take someone's life and health away.  Those who are against reasonable environmental protections are against freedom because they are enabling others to take away others lives and health.  
  
  And don't tell me that the free market will take care of it.   I used to work for two companies that were extremely unethical when it came to pollution.  My two old bosses were indicted for conspiracy in the Salt Lake Valley for poisoning ground water.  I also used to work for a coal mine.  They were really unethical and dishonest about what the pollution they were creating and releasing.  That's why I quit.   My wife needed a heart surgery and I went the mine because they paid me a lot of money and had great benefits.   I had to quit because I was always being asked to do unethical things.  I couldn't live with my self for working there, even though about half of the ward does, and apparently with a clear conscience.  
•  
• Believes in actions that children should not be punished for being born or for the choices of their parents.  If you want to be pro-life, then that's great.   Be pro-life.   I was (very strongly so) until only a year or so ago.  If you are pro-life though, I'd be careful about trying to force someone who shouldn't have children into having them.  I was very strongly pro-life until only a year or two ago.   My wife and I had a lot of heartache over trying to have children and it took us nine years to finally conceive.   I couldn't understand how someone else could be pro-choice since they could give up a baby to adoption.    I was pro-life because I care about children.
  
  I switched my position when I started seeing stories like this:
  
  https://www.cbsnews.com/news/mother-put-two-tots-in-oven-turned-it-on-killed-them-authorities-say/
  
  http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/pa-toddler-tortured-3-days-mother-boyfriend-article-1.2002214
•  
• Some people just shouldn't have kids.   Chances are if a women wants an abortion that she is one of them (unless it is for medical reasons).
• 
  I still think that abortion is evil, but if it saves an unwanted child from awful torture at the hands of his or her parents, that is better to me. If you can't handle having a baby, and don't want a child, and that child is going to suffer because of it, then have an abortion rather than bring a child into this world only to have he or she suffer.
  
  Also, if you want to be pro-life, be pro-life and not just pro-birth.   Make sure that children, who have no choice in the matter, have access to health care.  If you say that this isn't the responsibility of the government, fine; find a way to give children healthcare.   Children have no choice in the matter.   It isn't their fault if they are born into a family that can't afford healthcare.  

Edited August 3, 2018 by Scott

[Guest Scott]

Quote

What makes you think a state system will work here when it doesn't even work in Canada or Europe?

This is bull.   It works in those countries; or at least it works better than here.   I have spent a lot of time in those places and my wife lived in Canada before we were married.  People live longer there and a lot less children die as well.   Don't forget about places like Japan as well. 

Stories about not being able to get health care in those places are mostly a myth.  Even if there is a wait, you can buy private insurance for a lot cheaper there than you can here.   

Also, people like to point out that a small number of people come to the US for medical care (because it's for sale-those specialized doctors aren't the ones we can afford to see), but far more people leave the United States than come to the United States for care.

That's not to say that it would work here because there is a lot of corruption and greed.  I don't know if it would work as well there.  

Quote

 It will bankrupt the United States and kill the people it deems not worth serving like it does in Great Britain.

The baby would have died here too.  It was brain dead and there was no hope of recovery.   No insurance here would have paid for that care.   In fact here the insurance has a hard time paying for children that aren't brain dead.

Quote

The only viable renewable energy is nuclear power

Nuclear power is not renewable energy. I think you just proved how ignorant you are on the topic. 

Quote

 Besides, what, are you concerned about global warming? 

Have you ever been to Salt Lake City in the winter time?   It's a toxic child killing death pool.  

Edited August 3, 2018 by Scott

[LePeel]

33 minutes ago, Scott said:

I switched my position when I started seeing stories like this:

What makes you think they would have gotten abortions? The people who teach that its oppressive NOT to be sexually promiscuous are the same people who peddle abortion as a virtue because it unshackles women from male fertilization. I'm pro choice too, if you didn't want a kid, you shouldn't have had sex, you made your choice. Worlds without end, a "woman's right to choose" is a Satanic construction.

[Guest MormonGator]

17 minutes ago, LePeel said:

What makes you think they would have gotten abortions? The people who teach that its oppressive NOT to be sexually promiscuous are the same people who peddle abortion as a virtue because it unshackles women from male fertilization. I'm pro choice too, if you didn't want a kid, you shouldn't have had sex, you made your choice. Worlds without end, a "woman's right to choose" is a Satanic construction.

With few exceptions of truly insane people , no one thinks abortion is a virtue. 

[LePeel]

6 minutes ago, Scott said:

This is bull.   It works in those countries; or at least it works better than here.   I have spent a lot of time in those places and my wife lived in Canada before we were married.  People live longer there and a lot less children die as well.   Don't forget about places like Japan as well. 

Stories about not being able to get health care in those places are mostly a myth.  Even if there is a wait, you can buy private insurance for a lot cheaper there than you can here.   

Also, people like to point out that a small number of people come to the US for medical care (because it's for sale-those specialized doctors aren't the ones we can afford to see), but far more people leave the United States than come to the United States for care.

That's not to say that it would work here because there is a lot of corruption and greed.  I don't know if it would work as well there.

What makes you think it works? They're bankrupt. What's this ruckus about greed and corruption? Europe is just as greedy and corrupt as anyone else. The reason it especially wouldn't work in the United States is because its a federation of 50 countries with 330 million citizens between them. The United States owes 210 trillion in unfunded liabilities, whats all this talk about a universal healthcare system? On what planet?

25 minutes ago, Scott said:

The baby would have died here too.  It was brain dead and there was no hope of recovery.   No insurance here would have paid for that care.   In fact here the insurance has a hard time paying for children that aren't brain dead.

The father wanted to bring the child to Italy for treatment but the NHS literally barred them from leaving the hospital with police while they forced the child to die by taking him off life support. The Government sucks.

28 minutes ago, Scott said:

Nuclear power is not renewable energy. I think you just proved how ignorant you are on the topic.

My mistake, so much for renewable energy then.

 

[LePeel]

6 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

With few exceptions of truly insane people , no one thinks abortion is a virtue.

Its a shame that these truly insane people are in the supreme court and the Congress. The radicals will infect the middle, the middle doesn't have the same fervor.

[Guest MormonGator]

3 minutes ago, LePeel said:

Its a shame that these truly insane people are in the supreme court and the Congress. The radicals will infect the middle, the middle doesn't have the same fervor.

Funny you mention the supreme court. The late Antonin Scala had a best friend on the court. Her name is Ruth Bader Ginsburg. They agreed on virtually nothing, but were so close that after his death, Ginsburg apparently cried for weeks. So did Elena Kagan. Another non-conservative. 

If they can be so decent to one another and so close, I truly wonder why we can't. 

[Guest MormonGator]

I truly, truly don't understand the way of thinking "My side is wonderful and the other side is crazy! Evil! Horrible!" I don't get it. Is it an ego thing? Something like "Well, anyone who disagrees with me is clearly deficient in some way, because I'm always right!" Is it loneliness? "I don't have any close friends who think differently, and of course it's all on them, so the other side must be evil!" Is it naivety? "I don't know anyone who disagrees with me, so if even exist, they must be evil." 

Seriously, why do people think this way? I guess I'm just too stupid to figure it out. Oh well. 

I'm just thankful that I have friends whom I love dearly and also ::gasp:: don't agree with me on everything. 

Edited August 3, 2018 by MormonGator

[LePeel]

8 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

wonderful

We know how to identify Satanic influence.

[Guest Scott]

Quote

The people who teach that its oppressive NOT to be sexually promiscuous are the same people who peddle abortion as a virtue because it unshackles women from male fertilization. 

Not most of them.   This is true even outside of our country.   For example, in Netherlands they actually give free abortions to anyone who wants them.  They also have one of the lowest abortion rates in the world and it's about half of that in the United States.  It is because of better access to birth control.

I'm not saying that I agree with it, but just pointing out that most people who are pro-choice also want better access to birth control in order to prevent abortions.   Or at least in theory.   

Quote

I'm pro choice too, if you didn't want a kid, you shouldn't have had sex, you made your choice. 

I agree (unless a woman was raped, then she didn't have a choice).   I was strongly pro-life before the last year and the reason my mind was changed had nothing to do with me thinking that people shouldn't be responsible when it comes to sex and pregnancy.

I agree and you're preaching to the choir.   People should be responsible and pregnancies should not happen unless both parents are ready to raise a child.   This is how things should be; we agree.  If you can convince me that this can and will happen, I will change my position.  

Quote

What makes you think they would have gotten abortions? 

They might not have.    I do know that bringing an unwanted child into the world is not a good thing.   Unless there are other factors involved, such as health issues or the fetus was going to die anyway, it seems logical that people who want an abortion probably don't want a child.   And, bringing a child into the world who is not wanted is not a good thing.

I still think that abortion is wrong.   I also think that bringing an unwanted child into the world is even more so.

So, if you can convince we that there is a way to ensure that all of these unwanted children do not suffer a miserable or abusive life, I will again switch my position to the pro-life group, of which I have been in for the vast majority of my life.
========================================================================================================

I have one more question concerning conservatives?    Why do they always support Israel 100% no matter what the do.   Now, before you tell me to read my scriptures and post a bunch of links to scriptures (I am well versed in the scriptures and have approximately 1/3 of the Bible memorized), when they talk about Israel are they really always talking about the secular modern day country that just happens to be called Israel?

Since we're on the topic of abortion, Israel has the most liberal abortion laws in the world.   With very rare exceptions, anyone for any reason can get a government paid abortion and even those who aren't approved can go to a private clinic.

Here is an excerpt from an Israeli newspaper:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israels-abortion-law-now-among-worlds-most-liberal/

Excerpts:

Israel, a nation with a forceful religious lobby and a conservative prime minister, is poised to offer its female citizens some of the most liberal abortion coverage in the world.

The nation’s Health Ministry commission, led by Dr. Yonatan Halevy, last week announced its state-subsidized “health basket,” the package of medications and services that all Israeli citizens are entitled to under the nation’s health care system. It was approved by the cabinet on Sunday. The health basket is analyzed and amended on an annual basis, and among the many additional treatments to be offered to Israelis in 2014 are free-of-charge abortions for women ages 20-33.

All women who seek to end a pregnancy must appear before a three-member committee to state their case, but 98 percent of requests are approved. Women under the age of 20 or over the age of 40 were also previously eligible for subsidized abortions, regardless of the reason.
 

With the newly amended health care package, however, funding will now be available for more than 6,000 additional women seeking to terminate their pregnancies, at the cost at some NIS 16 million ($4.6 million). No medical reason for the abortion is required.

So since the US is evil for allowing abortions, what does that make Israel, who has much more liberal laws for abortions (even though they have a lower rate)?

So, why isn’t there an outcry since the US always supports Israel?   Conservatives always call other countries by name for allowing abortion, but I have never heard one negative word about Israel's abortion laws.

Also, preaching the gospel in Israel is illegal and carries a harsh prison sentence.   Where’s the outcry? 

 

Quote

What makes you think it works? They're bankrupt

There are 44 countries in Europe.   Can you give me a list of which ones are bankrupt or even near bankrupt?   How about Canada and Japan?

Anyway, I don't know if Socialized medicine will work here or not.   We already hashed that out on the other thread. 

Edited August 3, 2018 by Scott

[Guest Scott]

12 minutes ago, LePeel said:

We know how to identify Satanic influence.

Anyone who can identify it sees its influence in both conservative and liberal parties.  

[LePeel]

6 minutes ago, Scott said:

Anyone who can identify it sees its influence in both conservative and liberal parties.  

Yes there's Satanic influence on both sides. But when you read the Family Proclamation and realize that it is contrary to the Leftist orthodoxy at every point, one must conclude the Devil is intimately at work in the Left. I know its a contradiction in terms to call the radical left an orthodoxy. But they determine the direction of the rest of the wing. I don't care for the Republican party either, I should add.

Edited August 3, 2018 by LePeel

[NeedleinA]

Wow - we sure have had some zinger debates on here recently.
At least as Brothers & Sisters we share the common glue of the gospel even if we debate like bighorn sheep in heat from time to time. 

Sometimes it is easy to forget that we are ultimately fighting for the same team. No matter if some of our ideas seem fringe to one another,  if you are on the "Lord's side" then you are a okay with me. Even when @anatess2 and I get a little short & choppy with each other (sorry Anatees, I apologize).

Quote

2 Nephi 25

23 For we labor diligently to write, to ^apersuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God;...

26 And we ^atalk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we ^bprophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our ^cchildren may know to what source they may look for a ^dremission of their sins.

Despite any differences we may have, I am grateful to be a member here and associate with you all as Brothers & Sisters.

Edited August 3, 2018 by NeedleinA

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

1 hour ago, LePeel said:

We know how to identify Satanic influence.

 

1 hour ago, Scott said:

Anyone who can identify it sees its influence in both conservative and liberal parties.  

Yep, it's on both sides.

58 minutes ago, LePeel said:

Yes there's Satanic influence on both sides. But when you read the Family Proclamation and realize that it is contrary to the Leftist orthodoxy at every point, one must conclude the Devil is intimately at work in the Left.

Conservative claim to be the pro-family party, but the situation at the border (separating families who are seeking assylum) shows their hypocrisy.  

This is part of what I mean about evil on both sides.

 

[Guest Scott]

Quote

Yes there's Satanic influence on both sides.

Yes.

Quote

But when you read the Family Proclamation and realize that it is contrary to the Leftist orthodoxy at every point, one must conclude the Devil is intimately at work in the Left.

When you read the Environmental Stewardship statements from the Church you can see the work of the Devil in the Right.

Which is worse?   Having a gay marriage or killing 9 million people a year?   That's 1/6 of all deaths worldwide.

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-41678533

The US is a clean country, but even then 155,000 to 200,000+ people die of pollution related deaths every year.  That's approximately 50 to 70 times the amount of people killed every single year than from the 9/11 terrorists attacks.  Also, even though we are a mostly clean country, US own corporations are killing many people while they do business outside the US.  

I'm all for using energy (energy is good), but let's do it as cleanly as reasonably possible.  

As mentioned earlier, the most extreme ways you can take someone's life away it to take their health or life from them.

Back to the Proclamation of the Family, the left would be against much of that, but they admit it.  The right says they are for many of those things, yet they elect a president who is in gross violation of the Proclamation.

Anyway, thanks for reminding me while I am an Independent.  I don't like either of the two main parties, and in fact I think we should ditch both of them.  I'd rather vote on specific issues than for a political party.

Also, a majority of Americans are moderates, but as it stands now most of the time we only have the choice of voting between extremists.  
 

Edited August 3, 2018 by Scott

[Guest Scott]

Quote

Conservative claim to be the pro-family party, but the situation at the border (separating families who are seeking assylum) shows their hypocrisy. 

Of note, here is the public statement of the Church on the matter (for anyone interested):

https://www.lds.org/church/news/church-calls-for-unity-compassion-in-new-statement-on-immigration?lang=eng

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has long expressed its position that immigration reform should strengthen families and keep them together. The forced separation of children from their parents now occurring at the U.S.-Mexico border is harmful to families, especially to young children. We are deeply troubled by the aggressive and insensitive treatment of these families. While we recognize the right of all nations to enforce their laws and secure their borders, we encourage our national leaders to take swift action to correct this situation and seek for rational, compassionate solutions.

 

[LePeel]

19 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Conservative claim to be the pro-family party, but the situation at the border (separating families who are seeking assylum) shows their hypocrisy.  

This is part of what I mean about evil on both sides.

That's the law as determined by the 9th circuit court of appeals in Flores v. Loretta Lynch during the Obama Administration. Trump enforces immigration law rather than ignoring it. It has nothing to do with conservatives. Besides, the only reason we heard about it in the first place is because of the Democratic obsession with Donald Trump and their campaign to resist him by any means necessary. 

[LePeel]

39 minutes ago, Scott said:

The right says they are for many of those things, yet they elect a president who is in gross violation of the Proclamation.

Perhaps the conservatives didn't support him and was rather elected by the moderate middle. I wanted Ted Cruz, Trump's a sleeze bag and wiener.

Edited August 3, 2018 by LePeel

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

3 hours ago, LePeel said:

That's the law as determined by the 9th circuit court of appeals in Flores v. Loretta Lynch during the Obama Administration. Trump enforces immigration law rather than ignoring it. It has nothing to do with conservatives. Besides, the only reason we heard about it in the first place is because of the Democratic obsession with Donald Trump and their campaign to resist him by any means necessary. 

Whether or not it is the law is not the point here.  Roe vs. Wade and gay marriage are the law as well as determined by the Supreme Court too. The point we are discussing what is right under God, and you implied that Conservatives follow the Proclamation on the Family, and Liberals don't.  This practice of separating FAMILIES is NOT following the Proclamation of the Family.  Our leaders have been clear about how this practice is wrong (See @Scott's post above.    Satan can be seen in both sides.  
 

3 hours ago, LePeel said:

Perhaps the conservatives didn't support him and was rather elected by the moderate middle. I wanted Ted Cruz, Trump's a sleeze bag and wiener.

Some of the Conservatives I have talked to feel as you do, but others feel he will save the country.  But you are right  that we have to talk to people to know what they think, and not just make assumptions.  

[anatess2]

6 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

  This practice of separating FAMILIES is NOT following the Proclamation of the Family.  Our leaders have been clear about how this practice is wrong (See @Scott's post above.    Satan can be seen in both sides.  

Do you even know the conditions that causes them to get separated?  

It is not the US government that are separating those families.  The illegal immigrants are the ones separating their own families.  They even send their tiny kids on the journey all on their own and hand the girls birth control so they won't get pregnant when they are raped.  And you think it is the US government that are separating their families?  

And that's why the "so called liberals" are the bad guys today.  The disinformation is astounding - promoted by the liberal propaganda machines disguised as media.  And the attacks are relentless!  Some research outfit put the national news outfits at 90% anti-Admin.

And this is something I am not happy about the Church's media group.  They give out these moral statements in the thick of political debate that are EASILY used by members as ammunition to support their side with ZERO context.  They don't have to.  For example - Church releases a statement "Families should not be separated".  Liberal responds - see, even the Church disagrees with separating families at the border!  Ok, so you're fine with putting a child in jail with their criminal parent?  Or putting him in with the suspected child-trafficking adult claiming to be his parent who has zero proof of the claim?  Or how about keeping a child in a detention facility over 20 days while their parents' asylum claim is being processed?  If you had problems with those you should have said so when those laws were made decades ago.  I have no problem with a child going to jail with the parent if that's what you want.

Edited August 3, 2018 by anatess2