Any guesses on the grand things?

[CV75]

2 hours ago, mikbone said:

Sorry for my late response, been busy

From my studies about the veil, there are multiple but some are more important than others.  

1.  Veil as a piece of clothing - This veil interestingly allows the wearer to see but conceals the identity of the person whom is wearing the veil.  As used by Leah on Jacob's wedding night. 

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/leah?lang=eng

2.  Veil of darkness D&C 38:5-8, or Dark veil of unbelief Alma 19:6, Ether 4:15.  Is a veil that is constructed by Lucifer and is made of chains instead of a cloth 2 Peter 2:24

3.  Veil that was torn at the Death of Christ in the temple.  Matthew 27:51.   This miraculous event was probably both symbolic and miraculous sign.  Before Christ's mortal ministry mankind really did not know the identity of God.  And although in the pre-mortal existence when Jehovah volunteered to be our savior we did not know what that position required (but apparently Jehovah did).  Even when Adam left the Garden and was performing burnt offerings (2 generations after he had been driven out of the garden) Adam did not know why he was performing the sacrifices.  It was only after angelic instruction that the gospel began to be taught to mankind.  Yet even so, man did not recognize the Messiah's role.  The Jewish people totally misunderstood and still misunderstand the Messiah.  Christianity only really began after Christ's death because at that time the veil was rent, we were finally able to recognize that Jesus Christ is our savior by means of the Atonement and Resurrection.  

4.   The veil that separates us from God the Father and our pre-mortal memories.  This I believe is a real veil and is symbolically represented in modern day temples.   When we leave the pre-mortal existence and God's presence, we pass thru the veil and our prior memories (but not our personalities) are taken from our recollection.  When we enter into the Celestial Kingdom we must pass through this veil to recoup our memories.  This event is best illustrated in Ether chapter 3 when Mahonri parts the veil and is reunited with his pre-mortal memories and recognizes our Lord and Savior for the first time.  This also explains Jehovah's Statement in 3 Ether 15  "And never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man believed in me as thou hast. Seest thou that ye are created after mine own image? Yea, even all men were created in the beginning after mine own image."

Also of import is that we do NOT pass thru this veil at death.  We are not reunited with our pre-mortal memories upon entrance into paradise or spirit prison.   And those members of Gods children who elect to reside in the terrestrial or telestial kingdom will never regain their pre-mortal memories (this is a protective blessing).  

 

The above portion of Joseph Smith's April 7, 1844 conference talk, appears to talk about salvation from hell, and not Eternal Life.  To me, by means of spreading the gospel and teaching that men should obey the commandments, we can assist others from damnation to the Telestial kingdom.  Entrance into the Terrestrial kingdom require obedience to the Ten Commandments.  But entrance into the Celestial Kingdom requires ordinances.  

 

I don't follow your last paragraph.  There is Spirit, Physical Bodies, possibly even Intelligence.  We don't really know all the ins and outs of how they work though.   And I am not sure about their permanence.   Otherwise the line of argument that is employed in Alma 42 would have no meaning.  "if so, God would cease to be God."

 

Finally, I love the chapter Ether 3.  It is an awesome piece of literature.  And it has loads of commentary.  Many of which are worthless.  I challenge you to read it with an open mind.  And I wish to point out one thing.  Spirit Body is a term that was created by Bruce McConkie to explain his understanding of this chapter.  

Body - The physical tabernacle of flesh.

Personage of Spirit - A spirit without tabernacle of flesh which has the appearance of a man.  1 Ne 11:11, D&C 130:22

Body of Flesh and Blood - A mortal body.  Matthew 16:17, 1 Cor 15:50, Mosiah 7:27

Translated being - A changed body, sanctified in the flesh. 3 Ne 28:36-40

Spirit of Just Men Made Perfect - A personage of spirit whom passed thru mortality but died and is awaiting the resurrection.  D&C 129:3,6-7

Body of Flesh and Bone - An immortal body.  Luke 24:39

Spiritual Body - An immortal body that is quickened with spirit instead of blood.[1]  1 Cor 15:44-45, D&C 88:27, Alma 11:45

Spirit Body - this term is not found within the scriptures.  There is an entry found in the Topical Guide but none of the citations actually use the term.  Mormon Doctrine has an entry titled Spirit bodies wherein McConkie defines the term as follows:

Spirit Bodies - See Pre-existence, Spirit Birth, Spirit Children, Spiritual Bodies, Spirit World.  Our spirit bodies had their beginning in pre-existence when we were born as the spirit children of God our Father.  Through that birth process spirit element was organized into intelligent entities.  The bodies so created have all the parts of mortal bodies. The Brother of Jared saw Christ’s spirit finger and then his whole spirit body.  “I am Jesus Christ,” that glorious Personage said. “This body, which ye now behold is the body of my spirit; … and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh.” (Ether 3:14-17)

 

[1] “God Almighty himself dwells in eternal fire, flesh and blood cannot go there for all corruption is devoured by the fire-- our God is a consuming fire-- when our flesh is quickened by the Spirit, there will be no blood in the tabernacles,--” Joseph Smith Jr., Sermon delivered at Nauvoo temple grounds May 12, 1844. As recorded in the Thomas Bullock report. 

Ether, the Brother of Jared, Moroni, and Joseph Smith each had a hand in our current understanding of the Chapter.  Their words should be trusted.  

I first took you to say that Christ was referring (in His John 5 statements) to what He eye-witnessed His Father do previously (even though He uses the present tense), hence my remarks about the necessity of a veil and its relationship with agency. Since you clarified that He did have veils to pass between estates, and that He thus gained His testimony while in this world through revelation, that is not so much an issue.

We likewise see what the Father doeth because we, as He, live out our lives in the present with the commitment to do good. This is what He does in His sphere. Because we are mortals, we do this with a hope in the resurrection and exaltation, and Joseph Smith taught that Heavenly Father also did. In order to do it, we pass through various veils of knowledge by knocking and receiving answers. We can see the Father in this context because of what Joseph revealed.

My last paragraph comes from D&C 93:33, observing that if man is spirit, so is God. These spirits also have element connected to them, the first separably and the second inseparably. The meaning carried by the phrase “God would cease to be God” is simply that He does not permit the destruction of the works of justice. Separating the inseparable post-judgment resurrected body, or unsealing that which is sealed unto exaltation post-judgement are examples of destroying the works of justice. This establishes the permanency of both the inseparably connected spirit and element and the sealing by the Holy Spirit of Promise.

I will re-read Ether 3 but I do appreciate the difference between a spirit as a personage ("man is spirit”) and a spiritual body as a quickened personage of connected spirit and element. I think “spirit body” is a way of saying what 3:16 says (that the observable appearance of our spirits -- to the finer or quickened eye -- is to be found in the coarser physical appearance of our bodies of flesh). We can play with the semantics a little and say that what MC saw was the “[future temporal] body of my spirit” and that he saw the Lord’s future body of flesh while “in the Spirit” … or, we can say that the Lord already possessed a tabernacle of flesh and bone or a spiritual body that will be dispensed with for mortal flesh and blood on earth. But that is playing with the semantics against the context of 3 Nephi 3:1 in context of Abraham 3:22-28.

[mikbone]

39 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I first took you to say that Christ was referring (in His John 5 statements) to what He eye-witnessed His Father do previously (even though He uses the present tense), hence my remarks about the necessity of a veil and its relationship with agency. Since you clarified that He did have veils to pass between estates, and that He thus gained His testimony while in this world through revelation, that is not so much an issue.

We likewise see what the Father doeth because we, as He, live out our lives in the present with the commitment to do good. This is what He does in His sphere. Because we are mortals, we do this with a hope in the resurrection and exaltation, and Joseph Smith taught that Heavenly Father also did. In order to do it, we pass through various veils of knowledge by knocking and receiving answers. We can see the Father in this context because of what Joseph revealed.

I think that Jehovah witnessed the Father in a similar way that today's Saints witness and will continue to witness Jesus Christ in the hereafter.  We don't witness the Father directly, but by witnessing the Son we, by proxy, get to witness the Father because Jesus treads in the tracks of his Father.  If and when we make it to the Celestial Kingdom we will then be reunited with our Heavenly Father.  

39 minutes ago, CV75 said:

My last paragraph comes from D&C 93:33, observing that if man is spirit, so is God. These spirits also have element connected to them, the first separably and the second inseparably. The meaning carried by the phrase “God would cease to be God” is simply that He does not permit the destruction of the works of justice. Separating the inseparable post-judgment resurrected body, or unsealing that which is sealed unto exaltation post-judgement are examples of destroying the works of justice. This establishes the permanency of both the inseparably connected spirit and element and the sealing by the Holy Spirit of Promise.

I know you don't like my idea of inseparable having an alternate meaning.  And I'm ok with that.  Just as long as you recognize that I maintain my concept of a deity being able to don and doff physical element is a possible version of inseparable (I don't ask you to accept this idea).  Jesus Christ has been able to modify his appearance or at least cast an illusion on his physical tabernacle at will.  I believe that He can modify his appearance to be an adult in his prime or as rugged elderly gentleman.  I'm not about to put limitations on his abilities. 🙂 

39 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I will re-read Ether 3 but I do appreciate the difference between a spirit as a personage ("man is spirit”) and a spiritual body as a quickened personage of connected spirit and element. I think “spirit body” is a way of saying what 3:16 says (that the observable appearance of our spirits -- to the finer or quickened eye -- is to be found in the coarser physical appearance of our bodies of flesh). We can play with the semantics a little and say that what MC saw was the “[future temporal] body of my spirit” and that he saw the Lord’s future body of flesh while “in the Spirit” … or, we can say that the Lord already possessed a tabernacle of flesh and bone or a spiritual body that will be dispensed with for mortal flesh and blood on earth. But that is playing with the semantics against the context of 3 Nephi 3:1 in context of Abraham 3:22-28.

Thank you.  

Here is the super cool thing about Ether 3:16.  It is confusing, and I believe, done so by intention.  It is so confusing that Moroni had to take editorial privilege and insert his own commentary.  We see this occur multiple times within the Book of Mormon, but usually it is Mormon who is writing the commentary.  Here Moroni follows his father's examples and feels the need to set the record straight.  In Ether 3:17 Moroni writes " And now, as I, Moroni, said I could not make a full account of these things which are written, therefore it sufficeth me to say that Jesus showed himself unto this man in the spirit, even after the manner and in the likeness of the same body even as he showed himself unto the Nephites."

That is pretty powerful.  Now we can quibble on the terms manner and likeness, but the content is remarkable.  Moroni could have said that Jehovah showed Mahonri a personage of spirit similar to the personage that Nephi saw in 1 Nephi 11:11 but he didn't.  He wrote what he wrote.  And I like it. 

Edited November 5, 2018 by mikbone

[CV75]

1 hour ago, mikbone said:

I think that Jehovah witnessed the Father in a similar way that today's Saints witness and will continue to witness Jesus Christ in the hereafter.  We don't witness the Father directly, but by witnessing the Son we, by proxy, get to witness the Father because Jesus treads in the tracks of his Father.  If and when we make it to the Celestial Kingdom we will then be reunited with our Heavenly Father.  

I know you don't like my idea of inseparable having an alternate meaning.  And I'm ok with that.  Just as long as you recognize that I maintain my concept of a deity being able to don and doff physical element is a possible version of inseparable (I don't ask you to accept this idea).  Jesus Christ has been able to modify his appearance or at least cast an illusion on his physical tabernacle at will.  I believe that He can modify his appearance to be an adult in his prime or as rugged elderly gentleman.  I'm not about to put limitations on his abilities. 🙂 

Thank you.  

Here is the super cool thing about Ether 3:16.  It is confusing, and I believe, done so by intention.  It is so confusing that Moroni had to take editorial privilege and insert his own commentary.  We see this occur multiple times within the Book of Mormon, but usually it is Mormon who is writing the commentary.  Here Moroni follows his father's examples and feels the need to set the record straight.  In Ether 3:17 Moroni writes " And now, as I, Moroni, said I could not make a full account of these things which are written, therefore it sufficeth me to say that Jesus showed himself unto this man in the spirit, even after the manner and in the likeness of the same body even as he showed himself unto the Nephites."

That is pretty powerful.  Now we can quibble on the terms manner and likeness, but the content is remarkable.  Moroni could have said that Jehovah showed Mahonri a personage of spirit similar to the personage that Nephi saw in 1 Nephi 11:11 but he didn't.  He wrote what he wrote.  And I like it. 

Ooops, I meant 3 Nephi 1:13!

I view undoing the works of justice as something God would not do, not a limit to His ability to do so. What higher law would undo the consequences of keeping the laws of resurrection and sealing (the synergy of the two being exaltation and how that is decried in the scriptures)?

I think Moroni’s commentaries result from MC, Nephi and the Nephites having seen three different things. Nephi saw the Spirit of Lord at face value; MC saw the future mortal Lord’s appearance, with the Lord confirming the similarity between the appearance of His spirit estate and the future estate of flesh; Moroni confirmed MC’s past testimony that the resurrected Lord looked like the mortal Lord. Moroni saw a fourth thing, the resurrected Lord face to face long after the Nephites did, confirming that he is still here.

Ether's record is certainly about what MC saw and heard. 1 Nephi 11:11 and 3 Nephi 1:13 shows that the Lord spoke to people about His coming in the flesh without them seeing, or having the faith to see, what MC saw. Moroni's commentary shows that he may not have had MC's faith either, but had sufficient faith to see the Lord face to face.

[mikbone]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

Ooops, I meant 3 Nephi 1:13!

I view undoing the works of justice as something God would not do, not a limit to His ability to do so. What higher law would undo the consequences of keeping the laws of resurrection and sealing (the synergy of the two being exaltation and how that is decried in the scriptures)?

I think Moroni’s commentaries result from MC, Nephi and the Nephites having seen three different things. Nephi saw the Spirit of Lord at face value; MC saw the future mortal Lord’s appearance, with the Lord confirming the similarity between the appearance of His spirit estate and the future estate of flesh; Moroni confirmed MC’s past testimony that the resurrected Lord looked like the mortal Lord. Moroni saw a fourth thing, the resurrected Lord face to face long after the Nephites did, confirming that he is still here.

Ether's record is certainly about what MC saw and heard. 1 Nephi 11:11 and 3 Nephi 1:13 shows that the Lord spoke to people about His coming in the flesh without them seeing, or having the faith to see, what MC saw. Moroni's commentary shows that he may not have had MC's faith either, but had sufficient faith to see the Lord face to face.

Thanks for the correction. 

I side with those who think that Nephi saw the Holy Ghost in 1 Ne 11

1 Nephi 11:11 And I said unto him: To know the interpretation thereof—for I spake unto him as a man speaketh; for I beheld that he was in the form of a man; yet nevertheless, I knew that it was the Spirit of the Lord; and he spake unto me as a man speaketh with another.

Marion G. Romney, James E. Talmage, Sidney B. Sperry, and Robert L. Millet all shared their viewpoint that the personage speaking with Nephi in 1 Nephi 11 is the Holy Ghost.       These three references (the first is a General Conference talk and the other two are chapters in books) are excellent well written sources giving multiple reasons as to why it appears that the personage is the Holy Ghost. 
1) In 1 Nephi 10:17 Nephi states that he “was desirous also that I might see, and hear, and know of these things, by the power of the Holy Ghost.”  And in 1 Nephi 10:22 Nephi testified that, "the Holy Ghost giveth authority that I should speak these things, and deny them not."
2) Nephi never spoke of the Lord Jesus Christ as the “Spirit of the Lord” when the Master appeared to him on other occasions (1 Nephi 2:16; 2 Nephi 11:2–3). 
3) "Spirit of the Lord" phrase is used 40 times in the Book of Mormon and in all accounts, none of them describe Jehovah. In most cases, the Spirit of the Lord is used to explicitly describe the Holy Ghost. (Mormon 2:26, Mormon 5:16, & Moroni 9:4).
4) In 1 Nephi 11:6 the Spirit of the Lord uses the word Hosanna and worships both the Father and the Son. The word hosanna is from the Hebrew - ‘please save us’.

Marion G. Romney, The Holy Ghost, Sunday Morning Session April 7 1974, Ensign Mary 1974

Sidney B. Sperry, Answers to Book of Mormon Questions, Ch 5 Did Nephi Talk to the Holy Ghost in Person, Bookcraft, SLC, UT (1967)

Robert L. Millet, “Another Testament of Jesus Christ,” in First Nephi, The Doctrinal Foundation, ed. Monte S. Nyman and Charles D. Tate Jr. (Provo, UT: Religious Studies Center, Brigham Young University, 1988), 161–76.

Offering the contrary perspective, Bruce R. McConkie in the 2nd edition of Mormon Doctrine under the title of SPIRIT OF THE LORD writes:
But when we read the account of the appearance of “the Spirit of the Lord” to Nephi (1 Ne. 11), we are left to our own interpretive powers to determine whether the messenger is the Spirit Christ or the Holy Ghost. Presumptively it is the Spirit Christ ministering to Nephi much as he did to the Brother of Jared, for such is in keeping with the principle of advocacy, intercession, and mediation, the principle that all personal appearances of Deity to man since the fall of Adam, excepting appearances of the Father and the Son together, have been appearances of Christ. 

Personally, I like the idea that the Holy Ghost visited Nephi and directly taught him the interpretation of Lehi’s dream. Nephi knew instinctively that this personage was a spirit. Nephi does not say why or how he knew that it was a spirit, perhaps the appearance of the personage was obvious. 

 

I think that there are obvious differences in the body that Mahonri saw and touched.  At this point in time Jehovah could not have the prints in his hands or feet nor the slash in his side.  And the Atonement changed him in more ways than just physical.  

And I do love the 3 Ne 1:13 quote.  I'm still unsure if Jehovah was stating that tomorrow He would be placed in Mary's womb or if the prenatal Christ was able to have his voice heard from across the ocean while still in the womb.  Or somewhere in-between.   Probably the first.  
 

Edited November 5, 2018 by mikbone

[CV75]

12 hours ago, mikbone said:

Thanks for the correction. 

I side with those who think that Nephi saw the Holy Ghost in 1 Ne 11

1 Nephi 11:11 And I said unto him: To know the interpretation thereof—for I spake unto him as a man speaketh; for I beheld that he was in the form of a man; yet nevertheless, I knew that it was the Spirit of the Lord; and he spake unto me as a man speaketh with another.

Marion G. Romney, James E. Talmage, Sidney B. Sperry, and Robert L. Millet all shared their viewpoint that the personage speaking with Nephi in 1 Nephi 11 is the Holy Ghost.       These three references (the first is a General Conference talk and the other two are chapters in books) are excellent well written sources giving multiple reasons as to why it appears that the personage is the Holy Ghost. 
1) In 1 Nephi 10:17 Nephi states that he “was desirous also that I might see, and hear, and know of these things, by the power of the Holy Ghost.”  And in 1 Nephi 10:22 Nephi testified that, "the Holy Ghost giveth authority that I should speak these things, and deny them not."
2) Nephi never spoke of the Lord Jesus Christ as the “Spirit of the Lord” when the Master appeared to him on other occasions (1 Nephi 2:16; 2 Nephi 11:2–3). 
3) "Spirit of the Lord" phrase is used 40 times in the Book of Mormon and in all accounts, none of them describe Jehovah. In most cases, the Spirit of the Lord is used to explicitly describe the Holy Ghost. (Mormon 2:26, Mormon 5:16, & Moroni 9:4).
4) In 1 Nephi 11:6 the Spirit of the Lord uses the word Hosanna and worships both the Father and the Son. The word hosanna is from the Hebrew - ‘please save us’.

Marion G. Romney, The Holy Ghost, Sunday Morning Session April 7 1974, Ensign Mary 1974

Sidney B. Sperry, Answers to Book of Mormon Questions, Ch 5 Did Nephi Talk to the Holy Ghost in Person, Bookcraft, SLC, UT (1967)

Robert L. Millet, “Another Testament of Jesus Christ,” in First Nephi, The Doctrinal Foundation, ed. Monte S. Nyman and Charles D. Tate Jr. (Provo, UT: Religious Studies Center, Brigham Young University, 1988), 161–76.

Offering the contrary perspective, Bruce R. McConkie in the 2nd edition of Mormon Doctrine under the title of SPIRIT OF THE LORD writes:
But when we read the account of the appearance of “the Spirit of the Lord” to Nephi (1 Ne. 11), we are left to our own interpretive powers to determine whether the messenger is the Spirit Christ or the Holy Ghost. Presumptively it is the Spirit Christ ministering to Nephi much as he did to the Brother of Jared, for such is in keeping with the principle of advocacy, intercession, and mediation, the principle that all personal appearances of Deity to man since the fall of Adam, excepting appearances of the Father and the Son together, have been appearances of Christ.

Personally, I like the idea that the Holy Ghost visited Nephi and directly taught him the interpretation of Lehi’s dream. Nephi knew instinctively that this personage was a spirit. Nephi does not say why or how he knew that it was a spirit, perhaps the appearance of the personage was obvious.

I think that there are obvious differences in the body that Mahonri saw and touched.  At this point in time Jehovah could not have the prints in his hands or feet nor the slash in his side.  And the Atonement changed him in more ways than just physical.  

And I do love the 3 Ne 1:13 quote.  I'm still unsure if Jehovah was stating that tomorrow He would be placed in Mary's womb or if the prenatal Christ was able to have his voice heard from across the ocean while still in the womb.  Or somewhere in-between.   Probably the first. 

Yes, now that I recall, I think the Spirit of the Lord is the Holy Ghost. We get a good description of Him being in the form of a man in verse 11 (which is confirmed as a personage of spirit by Joseph Smith in the D&C), and verse 6 shows He was testifying of the Lord. He gives this testimony by vision (or by spacetime travel, verses 1 and 13; 12:1 and 6), showing Nephi the entire life of the Lord in the mortal and resurrected flesh, referencing an estate prior to that (12:18). As Nephi saw the Lord was born of a mother after the manner of the flesh (11:18), it would seem that He was a spirit before that, as so many other pre-Book of Mormon scriptures point to. but true, it doesn’t explicitly say that Nephi saw Jesus’ premortal spirit. He did see the Holy Ghopst's pre-mortal spirit! And thus indirectly testifying of what the Lord looked like through divine investiture...

Someone might propose that 3 Nephi 1:13 was a prerecording or an angel speaking by divine investiture of authority, including the Spirit of the Lord, but that does not accord with the other scriptures either.

The timing of when the spirit enters the body of flesh doesn’t matter; we are still technically a pre-mortal spirit even if theoretically transitioning between a resurrected body to enter a mortal body. The problem with God transitioning from a resurrected person to a premortal spirit preparatory to gaining a new body of mortal flesh is that the laws of resurrection and sealing (i.e. exaltation) would need to be broken. The sealing power does seal and loose, but only through obedience. Describing Jesus’ atonement as “that great and last sacrifice …infinite and eternal” does not convey something that He would either undo or disobey to reverse for the sake of our eternal progress. Neither does it allow for our passing through a second mortal probation after this one to act as a Savior prior to being resurrected and exalted.

Another principle to consider is, just as mercy and justice do not and cannot rob each other, neither do the powers of resurrection and sealing. The infinite and eternal atonement of Christ both establishes and reconciles all of these as a whole.

[mikbone]

4 hours ago, CV75 said:

Yes, now that I recall, I think the Spirit of the Lord is the Holy Ghost. We get a good description of Him being in the form of a man in verse 11 (which is confirmed as a personage of spirit by Joseph Smith in the D&C), and verse 6 shows He was testifying of the Lord. He gives this testimony by vision (or by spacetime travel, verses 1 and 13; 12:1 and 6), showing Nephi the entire life of the Lord in the mortal and resurrected flesh, referencing an estate prior to that (12:18). As Nephi saw the Lord was born of a mother after the manner of the flesh (11:18), it would seem that He was a spirit before that, as so many other pre-Book of Mormon scriptures point to. but true, it doesn’t explicitly say that Nephi saw Jesus’ premortal spirit. He did see the Holy Ghopst's pre-mortal spirit! And thus indirectly testifying of what the Lord looked like through divine investiture...

D&C 130:22 is awesome Core Doctrine.  And it is indisputable.  I know of no other core doctrine that describes Jehovah's corporeal nature during our pre-mortal existence.  I like to point to the scripture Abr 3:24 "And there stood one among them that was like unto God"  But this verse is not terribly descriptive.  Only that Jehovah was like Heavenly Father (possibly of appearance, glory, or structure, we don't know).  

And Divine Investiture as described in The Father and the Son: A Doctrinal Exposition by the First Presidency and the Twelve.  Is the explanation whereas Jehovah can and does speak as if He is the Father.  

I previously listed many accounts where Jehovah (prior to his mortal ministry) appeared to prophets, and every one of those instances are curious.  

4 hours ago, CV75 said:

we are still technically a pre-mortal spirit even if theoretically transitioning between a resurrected body to enter a mortal body. The problem with God transitioning from a resurrected person to a premortal spirit preparatory to gaining a new body of mortal flesh is that the laws of resurrection and sealing (i.e. exaltation) would need to be broken.

I agree.  This is unsatisfactory. 

But we must agree that the form and manner of Chrit's birth was extremely different from all other mortals.  And Jehovah was the Only Begotten long before He was born at Jerusalem. Moses 1:6, 13, 21, 32, 33; 2:1, 27; 3:18; 4:3; 6:52; 2 Nephi 25:12; Alma 9:26.

It is also interesting that Satan attempted to claim the title Only Begotten during his rant in Moses 1:18-19. I don’t think that Satan was trying to convince Moses that the sire of his body of flesh and blood was Heavenly Father…

The best scripture that we have about Christ's birth is the following

Alma 7: 10 And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God.

 

Edited November 5, 2018 by mikbone

[CV75]

3 hours ago, mikbone said:

D&C 130:22 is awesome Core Doctrine.  And it is indisputable.  I know of no other core doctrine that describes Jehovah's corporeal nature during our pre-mortal existence.  I like to point to the scripture Abr 3:24 "And there stood one among them that was like unto God"  But this verse is not terribly descriptive.  Only that Jehovah was like Heavenly Father (possibly of appearance, glory, or structure, we don't know).  

And Divine Investiture as described in The Father and the Son: A Doctrinal Exposition by the First Presidency and the Twelve.  Is the explanation whereas Jehovah can and does speak as if He is the Father.  

I previously listed many accounts where Jehovah (prior to his mortal ministry) appeared to prophets, and every one of those instances are curious.  

I agree.  This is unsatisfactory. 

But we must agree that the form and manner of Chrit's birth was extremely different from all other mortals.  And Jehovah was the Only Begotten long before He was born at Jerusalem. Moses 1:6, 13, 21, 32, 33; 2:1, 27; 3:18; 4:3; 6:52; 2 Nephi 25:12; Alma 9:26.

It is also interesting that Satan attempted to claim the title Only Begotten during his rant in Moses 1:18-19. I don’t think that Satan was trying to convince Moses that the sire of his body of flesh and blood was Heavenly Father…

The best scripture that we have about Christ's birth is the following

Alma 7: 10 And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God.

Rather, eisegesis tends to become indisputable after awhile, doesn't it! The proposition that anyone becoming a Heavenly Father, which we are all promised we can become, must first actually serve as a mortal Atoning Savior just as our Christ did in this world stems not from the scriptures but from a deeply literal take on the subject discourse, combined with conclusions covering what the discourse does not literally say.

Edited November 5, 2018 by CV75

[mikbone]

4 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Rather, eisegesis tends to become indisputable after awhile, doesn't it! The proposition that anyone becoming a Heavenly Father, which we are all promised we can become, must first actually serve as a mortal Atoning Savior just as our Christ did in this world stems not from the scriptures but from a deeply literal take on the subject discourse, combined with conclusions covering what the discourse does not literally say.

I had to pull up the dictionary.  Am I dealing with a philosopher here?  Of course from my position it seems more like exegesis. 😉

 

 

[CV75]

1 hour ago, mikbone said:

I had to pull up the dictionary.  Am I dealing with a philosopher here?  Of course from my position it seems more like exegesis. 😉

 

No philosopher (far from it!); it’s just when an admittedly esoteric doctrinal perspective becomes “indisputable,” exploration is pretty much over. But thanks for sharing! Is there anything you left out? Or that I seem to have misunderstood about the idea that we, like Jesus did, have to be a literal Atoning Only Begotten Savior on another world before truly becoming a Father? Or is there anything I might be able to clarify?

[mikbone]

34 minutes ago, CV75 said:

No philosopher (far from it!); it’s just when an admittedly esoteric doctrinal perspective becomes “indisputable,” exploration is pretty much over. But thanks for sharing! Is there anything you left out? Or that I seem to have misunderstood about the idea that we, like Jesus did, have to be a literal Atoning Only Begotten Savior on another world before truly becoming a Father? Or is there anything I might be able to clarify?

Esoteric absolutely.  Indisputable nah.  And you are welcome!  Sure there is an abundance of additional material.  And yes you have hit the nail on the head.  I believe that in order to become like Heavenly Father we have to earn the knowledge, glory, power, experience, etc.  And I think that it will be an exceptionally challenging and exciting transformation.  For those who choose to follow the Father's path.  

There seems to be an element of LDS cosmology, that many have interpreted to mean that as long as you try hard, do your best and receive your temple endowments that you are pretty much guaranteed exaltation and get to live the life that Heavenly Father enjoys.  I don't buy into that line of thought.  This life was designed to forge each of us into something greater.  Life was designed to challenge us and to refine our spirits into something that we could not learn in the pre-mortal existence.  And I don't believe that our trials will be finished after the resurrection.  

 

[CV75]

13 hours ago, mikbone said:

Esoteric absolutely.  Indisputable nah.  And you are welcome!  Sure there is an abundance of additional material.  And yes you have hit the nail on the head.  I believe that in order to become like Heavenly Father we have to earn the knowledge, glory, power, experience, etc.  And I think that it will be an exceptionally challenging and exciting transformation.  For those who choose to follow the Father's path.  

There seems to be an element of LDS cosmology, that many have interpreted to mean that as long as you try hard, do your best and receive your temple endowments that you are pretty much guaranteed exaltation and get to live the life that Heavenly Father enjoys.  I don't buy into that line of thought.  This life was designed to forge each of us into something greater.  Life was designed to challenge us and to refine our spirits into something that we could not learn in the pre-mortal existence.  And I don't believe that our trials will be finished after the resurrection.  

 

We will have trials, yes. Wars in heaven continue, and God weeps over the wicked and sets Himself up to be proven “herewith” every day. My understanding and experience is that our lives are designed to be exceptionally challenging and transformational with more to come until the dawning of the perfect day.

Jesus certainly had to keep His word out of love and obedience as we all must, and for this reason carried out His atoning sacrifice. I don’t see this attitude reflective of earning anything, but of submission and receiving. If the pattern we’ve received is correct, Christs atone for those brothers and sisters who sat with Them in council and sided with Them in war. Jesus was anointed to suffer for the generation of spirit children present when He first stepped forward, and it would be blasphemy for any of us to suffer for them again, whatever planet they may inhabit.

I’d say that any saved-by-ordinances-and-grace-alone element is extremely small but more importantly is not reflective of what we are led to do. In practice this group may be larger, but my observation is that is more out of human nature and habit than it is out of intentional belief. The same with those who take a works-heavy approach.

[mikbone]

8 hours ago, CV75 said:

If the pattern we’ve received is correct, Christs atone for those brothers and sisters who sat with Them in council and sided with Them in war. Jesus was anointed to suffer for the generation of spirit children present when He first stepped forward, and it would be blasphemy for any of us to suffer for them again, whatever planet they may inhabit.

I whole hardheartedly agree.

But here's the rub.

Lets take for example a hypothetical John Doe.  John Doe is still in the pre-mortal existence.  And He will be born 600 years into the Millennium.  He will live a good life, be twinkled and enter into the Celestial Kingdom.  Eventually, perhaps a billion or so years from now John Doe will arrive at the station where he is allowed to create spirit children.  

Will John Doe's spirit children need to have a mortal test similar to the one that you and I are currently experiencing?  And will those spirit children need to have a Savior?  

If they do need a Savior...   Do you think that that Savior will be our Jesus Christ or perhaps, John Doe's Firstborn in the spirit?

 

[CV75]

43 minutes ago, mikbone said:

I whole hardheartedly agree.

But here's the rub.

Lets take for example a hypothetical John Doe.  John Doe is still in the pre-mortal existence.  And He will be born 600 years into the Millennium.  He will live a good life, be twinkled and enter into the Celestial Kingdom.  Eventually, perhaps a billion or so years from now John Doe will arrive at the station where he is allowed to create spirit children.  

Will John Doe's spirit children need to have a mortal test similar to the one that you and I are currently experiencing?  And will those spirit children need to have a Savior?  

If they do need a Savior...   Do you think that that Savior will be our Jesus Christ or perhaps, John Doe's Firstborn in the spirit?

 

I'd say that John Doe will need a Savior; the same one we have. Should he become a joint-heir in the Church of the Firstborn, become exalted and have spirit children, He will preside over the same kind of plan of salvation for his spirit children with all the elements and features of the one we know about. I tend to believe that includes his having a Firstborn, and also includes his having “times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation” for each child, some in a millennium and some in an apostasy, and in any/every other condition “That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him…”

[mikbone]

14 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I'd say that John Doe will need a Savior; the same one we have. Should he become a joint-heir in the Church of the Firstborn, become exalted and have spirit children, He will preside over the same kind of plan of salvation for his spirit children with all the elements and features of the one we know about. I tend to believe that includes his having a Firstborn, and also includes his having “times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation” for each child, some in a millennium and some in an apostasy, and in any/every other condition “That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him…”

So, if this John Doe will have Jesus Christ as his savior as well...

Are we special in the eternities, because we knew Jehovah as a member of our pre-mortal existence, and He performed the Atonement on our Earth? 

And will Jehovah also reside within John Doe's pre-mortal existence.  Because we had the opportunity during our pre-mortal existence to live with Jehovah and chose him as our Leader.  

Is Jesus Christ is only Savior that has ever existed?  Or are there other Saviors in the eternities? 

[CV75]

13 hours ago, mikbone said:

So, if this John Doe will have Jesus Christ as his savior as well...

Are we special in the eternities, because we knew Jehovah as a member of our pre-mortal existence, and He performed the Atonement on our Earth? 

And will Jehovah also reside within John Doe's pre-mortal existence.  Because we had the opportunity during our pre-mortal existence to live with Jehovah and chose him as our Leader.  

Is Jesus Christ is only Savior that has ever existed?  Or are there other Saviors in the eternities? 

My understanding is that John Doe was with us in the pre-mortal existence, and his mortality is timed for the millennium. I don't think anyone comes to earth without having been part of the original council and war in heaven. Thus every spirit child coming to this earth knew Jesus in the pre-mortality. Jesus Christ is the only Savior as far as I am concerned, but I acknowledge other rounds and other iterations that have little or nothing to do with ours.

[mikbone]

I'm not  sure if you are being difficult or if i'm just terrible at describing my thoughts...

Lets assume that Lorenzo Snow's Couplet is true.  

"As man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may be"

Looking into the past 

It sure does leave a lot of wiggle room.  But let's assume that the God Lorenzo is referring to is our Heavenly Father.

Then Heavenly Father was once like us.  He lived on an Earth and learned thru trial and error that the plan of salvation is true.  If Heavenly Father in the far distant past experienced a life like us, then He sinned, thus required an atonement to allow him to overcome sin.  Was the personage that atoned for our Heavenly Father our Heavenly Grandfather or our Savior Jesus Christ?  

Or was Heavenly Father a man like Jesus, did He live a perfect life on another Earth.  And save his spiritual siblings?

Or was Heavenly Father first a Man like us, then a Man like Jesus.  

Or was He never like us and is Lorenzo Snow mistaken?

Looking into the future

Lets assume that there is an intelligence.  And lets give this intelligence the name Sam for convenience sake.  

Let us then assume that you become a God and begin to create your own spirit children.  

And Sam is one of the intelligences that you appropriate to make into a spirit child.  

Will Jesus Christ make a covenant with Sam within your new pre-mortal existence with all of your spirit children, or do you think that you will have your own firstborn that will serve as the savior for your spirit children.

 

Edited November 7, 2018 by mikbone

[CV75]

5 hours ago, mikbone said:

I'm not  sure if you are being difficult or if i'm just terrible at describing my thoughts...

Who knows? I answer the questions as best I can.

I believe our Heavenly Father had an atoning Savior who was not the same Savior who atoned for us. I think He subsequently had a Firstborn who was not the same Savior as the one who atoned for Him or His fellow mortals, but who atoned for us. I think I will have a Firstborn (who is not the same Savior as the one who atoned for us) who will atone for the rest of my other spirit children.

Edited November 7, 2018 by CV75

[mikbone]

3 hours ago, CV75 said:

Who knows? I answer the questions as best I can.

I believe our Heavenly Father had an atoning Savior who was not the same Savior who atoned for us. I think He subsequently had a Firstborn who was not the same Savior as the one who atoned for Him or His fellow mortals, but who atoned for us. I think I will have a Firstborn (who is not the same Savior as the one who atoned for us) who will atone for the rest of my other spirit children.

Thank you.  Phew.

So you are describing two different things.  The first is a line of royal Gods that have served as atoning Saviors

... Heavenly Grandfather -> Heavenly Father -> Jehovah  -> Jesus’ Firstborn in the spirit -> ...

The second concept is when you diverge from the royal line yet produce a firstborn of your own that can provide an atonement.

There is nothing wrong with having this understanding.

 

I dont like it personally for a whole slew of issues.  

Once we diverge from the royal line the Lorenzo Snow Couplet becomes cloudy.  Cuz I cannot in good consciousness compare my sin laden life with the experience that was Jesus Christ’s mortal ministry.   Essentially - As I am, God never was.  Not only did Jehovah perform our Atonement.  He created worlds without number and our first parents.  Jehovah’s experience as a carpenter will prepare him to become an architect (as Elohim now only creates spiritually)

We then have to throw the Holy Ghost into the mix and it becomes even more murky.  Is there a 3rd group of Gods who were Holy Ghosts?

Also Jesus has asked us to follow his example.  And to be perfect as he is.  And he invites us to become members of the church of the firstborn.  He wants all of us to become his Firstborns.

Also, if we are to become as God is we have to learn EVERYTHING.  Do you think we will learn it all through reading books or watching a VR class like Neo did in the Matrix.  Because everything I have experienced in life as an athlete, missionary, father, surgeon, etc. has taught me that you learn some by coaching or reading but most is by trial and error, making mistakes and learning step by step why we do what we do.  

Eternity is a long time.  There is time to learn and to perfect ourselves with the assistance of our leaders and heavenly parents.  I cannot imagine anyone being able to spiritually create spirit children until they have adequately proved themselves.

And finally how can you teach your firstborn to live a perfect life and perform an atonement?

 

D&C 19:2 I, having accomplished and finished the will of him whose I am, even the Father, concerning me-having done this that I might subdue all things unto myself-
 3 Retaining all power, even to the destroying of Satan and his works at the end of the world, and the last great day of judgment, which I shall pass upon the inhabitants thereof, judging every man according to his works and the deeds which he hath done.

 

The above proves that although Jehovah will give all the Glory to the father, that nonetheless He will retain great power and understanding from his calling.  

 

 

Edited November 8, 2018 by mikbone

[CV75]

12 hours ago, mikbone said:

Thank you.  Phew.

So you are describing two different things.  The first is a line of royal Gods that have served as atoning Saviors

... Heavenly Grandfather -> Heavenly Father -> Jehovah  -> Jesus’ Firstborn in the spirit -> ...

The second concept is when you diverge from the royal line yet produce a firstborn of your own that can provide an atonement.

There is nothing wrong with having this understanding.

I dont like it personally for a whole slew of issues.  

Once we diverge from the royal line the Lorenzo Snow Couplet becomes cloudy.  Cuz I cannot in good consciousness compare my sin laden life with the experience that was Jesus Christ’s mortal ministry.   Essentially - As I am, God never was.  Not only did Jehovah perform our Atonement.  He created worlds without number and our first parents.  Jehovah’s experience as a carpenter will prepare him to become an architect (as Elohim now only creates spiritually)

We then have to throw the Holy Ghost into the mix and it becomes even more murky.  Is there a 3rd group of Gods who were Holy Ghosts?

Also Jesus has asked us to follow his example.  And to be perfect as he is.  And he invites us to become members of the church of the firstborn.  He wants all of us to become his Firstborns.

Also, if we are to become as God is we have to learn EVERYTHING.  Do you think we will learn it all through reading books or watching a VR class like Neo did in the Matrix.  Because everything I have experienced in life as an athlete, missionary, father, surgeon, etc. has taught me that you learn some by coaching or reading but most is by trial and error, making mistakes and learning step by step why we do what we do.  

Eternity is a long time.  There is time to learn and to perfect ourselves with the assistance of our leaders and heavenly parents.  I cannot imagine anyone being able to spiritually create spirit children until they have adequately proved themselves.

And finally how can you teach your firstborn to live a perfect life and perform an atonement?

D&C 19:2 I, having accomplished and finished the will of him whose I am, even the Father, concerning me-having done this that I might subdue all things unto myself-
 3 Retaining all power, even to the destroying of Satan and his works at the end of the world, and the last great day of judgment, which I shall pass upon the inhabitants thereof, judging every man according to his works and the deeds which he hath done.

The above proves that although Jehovah will give all the Glory to the father, that nonetheless He will retain great power and understanding from his calling. 

I think it depends on what “as” means to someone in various contexts. I see the use of “as” in this context being to provide a relative comparison, not for exact valuation. In some ways we are exactly as Jesus, in other ways we are not.

“As man now is, [Jesus] once was: As [Jesus] now is, man may be.” In what ways was Jesus as us? – He was a child of God, a mortal human being with all those implications. This takes nothing away from how He was also perfectly sinless or how sinful we are. In what ways may we be as Jesus? – in mortality, when we use our agency to make good choices; in immortality, by never dying. This takes nothing away from any of the degrees of glory from exaltation on down.

The same with the couplet. In what ways was God as us? – He was a child of His God, a mortal human being with all those implications. In what ways may we be like God? – in mortality, by ministering; in immortality, by never dying.

Jesus condescended to be as us; He descended below all things (and that is absolute) to be less; He ascended above all things (also absolute) to be more. The outcome of His atonement (condescension and descension to every degree) is His absolute ascension, and ours to the same or any lesser degree.

I see no issue in having and teaching a Firstborn once I have become like my Father in every respect, which certainly would take a long, long time after this life, but not necessarily require a replicated earth experience as a Christ. Christ accomplished in 33 years what it will take me eons to accomplish through other means to learn and do on my developmental timetable. I can’t say how long it took our Heavenly Father.

[mikbone]

I think ill make one last post and then let it rest I’m pretty sure I see your point (I used to have a very similar perspective - it just left me with a nagging sensation that it was incomplete)  And I think that you understand my position (you just find it repulsive or arrogant or something else and I understand why someone can feel that way)...

And thank you for a respectful dialogue.

In high school and college I pole-vaulted.  It is an exhilarating activity.  But it is challenging and takes an incredible  amount of strength, coordination, dermination, and experience.  You cannot become a pole-vaulter from reading a book.  Even if you read hundreds of books and watched videos for decades, your first attempt would be a failure.  

I have never performed olympic type gymnastics and even though I was a good pole-vaulter my skill does not translate to the floor routine, high bar, parallel bars, etc.

Im sure you have a similar skill that you can relate to.

Jehovah was prepared from before the foundation of the world (Moses 5:57, Ether 3:14, D&C 93:21) to be our Savior.  And He performed a perfect execution of life, atonement, death, visiting the spirit world, and resurrection.  On the very first attempt!  It would be like a novice showing up to the olympics and shattering the world record Pole-Vault by a mile.  And the world record is currently only 20’ 2.5”

Not only did He do this, He created worlds without number and the light of Christ.  Creating a galaxy or universe seems to be a difficult proposition...  And then He created life and ecosystems.  The human body is a work of wonder.  The ability to create a DNA sequence that produces a  living thinking organism that can successfully survive and reproduce in a hostile environment is a bloody miracle.  I only understand the most basic comprehension of the skeletal system as an orthopod, and I can tell you that what I know about how the body grows and heals itself is downright amazing.  Our scientists have no freaking idea how life works.

You know that DNA produces protein right.  Do you know how many new DNA sequences that scientists have produced that have constructed a useful protein?  Thats right, zero.  We aren’t nearly as smart as most people believe that we are.

If we want to be like Heavenly Father, we probably have to do it the same way that He did it.  

Becoming a God is probably not a reward for living a good life.  Mormon’s are not godmakers because we think that we are better than the other religions.

Latter-Day Saints believe that we have to capacity to become like our forefathers because we are willing to follow their example, and work to bring to pass the immortality and etenal life of Man.

[CV75]

21 minutes ago, mikbone said:

I think ill make one last post and then let it rest I’m pretty sure I see your point (I used to have a very similar perspective - it just left me with a nagging sensation that it was incomplete)  And I think that you understand my position (you just find it repulsive or arrogant or something else and I understand why someone can feel that way)...

And thank you for a respectful dialogue.

In high school and college I pole-vaulted.  It is an exhilarating activity.  But it is challenging and takes an incredible  amount of strength, coordination, dermination, and experience.  You cannot become a pole-vaulter from reading a book.  Even if you read hundreds of books and watched videos for decades, your first attempt would be a failure.  

I have never performed olympic type gymnastics and even though I was a good pole-vaulter my skill does not translate to the floor routine, high bar, parallel bars, etc.

Im sure you have a similar skill that you can relate to.

Jehovah was prepared from before the foundation of the world (Moses 5:57, Ether 3:14, D&C 93:21) to be our Savior.  And He performed a perfect execution of life, atonement, death, visiting the spirit world, and resurrection.  On the very first attempt!  It would be like a novice showing up to the olympics and shattering the world record Pole-Vault by a mile.  And the world record is currently only 20’ 2.5”

Not only did He do this, He created worlds without number and the light of Christ.  Creating a galaxy or universe seems to be a difficult proposition...  And then He created life and ecosystems.  The human body is a work of wonder.  The ability to create a DNA sequence that produces a  living thinking organism that can successfully survive and reproduce in a hostile environment is a bloody miracle.  I only understand the most basic comprehension of the skeletal system as an orthopod, and I can tell you that what I know about how the body grows and heals itself is downright amazing.  Our scientists have no freaking idea how life works.

You know that DNA produces protein right.  Do you know how many new DNA sequences that scientists have produced that have constructed a useful protein?  Thats right, zero.  We aren’t nearly as smart as most people believe that we are.

If we want to be like Heavenly Father, we probably have to do it the same way that He did it.  

Becoming a God is probably not a reward for living a good life.  Mormon’s are not godmakers because we think that we are better than the other religions.

Latter-Day Saints believe that we have to capacity to become like our forefathers because we are willing to follow their example, and work to bring to pass the immortality and etenal life of Man.

I wouldn’t say I find it repulsive or arrogant, simply contrary to my experience that we can each learn the same great things in different ways and at different paces.

Yes, Jesus’ experience and abilities are unique. Yet we each had and still have something to contribute to the “Council of the Eternal God of all other gods.” I believe we helped Him create worlds without number (at least one of them!), a good start to our apprenticeship, and also that we work with Him to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man (another good start). This is how I take Heavenly Father to have done it, whether He was unique like Jesus or unique like any one of us.

Thank you for the interesting conversation!