Any guesses on the grand things?

[mikbone]

http://www.boap.org/LDS/Parallel/1844/7Apr44-copy.html

Try this website.  It is probably the best format that I have found to study the address.  

[The Folk Prophet]

There's basically 2 simple points that keep me skeptical of the premise that God the Father must have been the Savior of His mortal existence:

1. The "King Follet Discourse" was not canonized for a reason.

2. The logic is based on a non sequitur.

       Jesus did as His Father did and so must we do as Jesus did. So how is it that our doing as Jesus did is not to be understood as literally exact, but Jesus's doing as the Father did must be interpreted as literally exact?

I don't deny that God the Father might have been the Savior of His mortal existence. But the various sources that suggest this must be true are imperfect, based on faulty logic, and non-canonized with good reason.

I believe the safest and most reasonable understanding is this:

We don't know.

Edited October 31, 2018 by The Folk Prophet

[mikbone]

Other great resources

https://byustudies.byu.edu/content/king-follett-discourse-joseph-smiths-greatest-sermon-historical-perspective

http://www.splendidsun.com/wp/a-textual-history-of-the-kfd-part-i-sources-to-the-history-of-joseph-smith/

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1894&context=byusq

[mikbone]

20 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

 

1. The "King Follet Discourse" was not canonized for a reason.

 

Yeah, he was martyred 3 months later.  

We still haven't canonized the Family: A proclamation to the world (I thought for a second that President Nelson was going to do it and got all excited last conference).

 

If you read the first above link - Historical perspective of the discourse, you might get a feeling about how some of the early Saints felt about the talk...

This is kinda what I mean about people being harsh on Joseph Smith.  "Oh, he was a fallen prophet at this time."  "Oh, he was mistaken."  etc...

 

Edited October 31, 2018 by mikbone

[The Folk Prophet]

3 minutes ago, mikbone said:

Yeah, he was martyred 3 months later.  

And...future prophets didn't have the authority or power to canonize things? Not sure what you're getting at.

1 minute ago, mikbone said:

We still haven't canonized the Family: A proclamation to the world (I thought for a second that President Nelson was going to do it and got all excited last conference).

Do you believe that the Family: A proclamation to the world and The King Follet Discourse both have not been canonized for the same reason?

2 minutes ago, mikbone said:

This is kinda what I mean about people being harsh on Joseph Smith.  "Oh, he was a fallen prophet at this time."  "Oh, he was mistaken."  etc...

Do you think that was my point?

[JohnsonJones]

I believe the King Follett sermon/discourse was actually a funeral sermon/talk. 

I am unaware of any funeral talk by Joseph Smith that has ever been canonized.  Normally scripture that is canonized is via a different method than talking at a funeral. 

I think it has many great truths within it, but I also think that some of those can be misunderstood, misconstrued, or misinterpreted.  It is like many other Teachings and discussions of Joseph Smith that one can read and maybe even study, but were not given specifically as a revelation or otherwise something that we would see the same as scripture.

[Anddenex]

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

There's basically 2 simple points that keep me skeptical of the premise that God the Father must have been the Savior of His mortal existence:

1. The "King Follet Discourse" was not canonized for a reason.

2. The logic is based on a non sequitur.

       Jesus did as His Father did and so must we do as Jesus did. So how is it that our doing as Jesus did is not to be understood as literally exact, but Jesus's doing as the Father did must be interpreted as literally exact?

I don't deny that God the Father might have been the Savior of His mortal existence. But the various sources that suggest this must be true are imperfect, based on faulty logic, and non-canonized with good reason.

I believe the safest and most reasonable understanding is this:

We don't know.

When President Hinckley was asked about the Father he replied something to this nature, "There isn't much specified about God the Father." In other words, we don't know, and what we have about the Father is limited drastically.

This doesn't mean we can't learn or that what has been said is inaccurate, just that we don't know and the sources are limited.

Edited October 31, 2018 by Anddenex
is changed to isn't

[mikbone]

11 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

And...future prophets didn't have the authority or power to canonize things? Not sure what you're getting at.

Do you believe that the Family: A proclamation to the world and The King Follet Discourse both have not been canonized for the same reason?

Do you think that was my point?

Any canonization after Joseph Smith has been few and far between.

No, but read the historical perspective document i linked above...

[mikbone]

14 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

I believe the King Follett sermon/discourse was actually a funeral sermon/talk. 

I am unaware of any funeral talk by Joseph Smith that has ever been canonized.  Normally scripture that is canonized is via a different method than talking at a funeral. 

I think it has many great truths within it, but I also think that some of those can be misunderstood, misconstrued, or misinterpreted.  It is like many other Teachings and discussions of Joseph Smith that one can read and maybe even study, but were not given specifically as a revelation or otherwise something that we would see the same as scripture.

Nope, this is a common mis-understanding.  

It was NOT a funeral talk.  Elder Follett had some family members ask Joseph Smith to talk about the hereafter during his general conference talk for consolation.  He mentioned Elder Follett in the address and it took off from there.  For a detailed historical perspective I recommend the following.  It is a good read.

https://byustudies.byu.edu/content/king-follett-discourse-joseph-smiths-greatest-sermon-historical-perspective

Edited October 31, 2018 by mikbone

[JohnsonJones]

13 minutes ago, mikbone said:

Nope, this is a common mis-understanding.  

It was NOT a funeral talk.  Elder Follett had some family members ask Joseph Smith to talk about the hereafter during his general conference talk for consolation.  He mentioned Elder Follett in the address and it took off from there.  For a detailed historical perspective I recommend the following.  It is a good read.

https://byustudies.byu.edu/content/king-follett-discourse-joseph-smiths-greatest-sermon-historical-perspective

From the following

King Follet Sermon - Ensign

Quote

The King Follett Sermon, one of the classics of Church literature, was given by the Prophet Joseph Smith at the April 7, 1844, conference of the Church in Nauvoo, Illinois. Some twenty thousand Saints were assembled.
The account of the talk noted that it was the funeral sermon for Elder King Follett, a close friend of the Prophet’s who had been killed in an accident on March 9. Longhand notes of the discourse were made by Willard Richards, Wilford Woodruff, Thomas Bullock, and William Clayton. This reprint was taken from the Documentary History of the Church, vol. 6, pages 302–17. That volume notes: “This was not a stenographic report, but a carefully and skillfully prepared one made by these men who were trained in reporting and taking notes. Evidently, there are some imperfections in the report and some thoughts expressed by the Prophet which were not fully rounded out and made complete. …”

PS: Expounding on this and my former statement...

If you read the Doctrine & Covenants, these are revelations given to Joseph Smith.  It is rare for something that is NOT a direct revelation as such to be canonized in the D&C.

The Pearl of Great Price was also revelation via translation (Book of Abraham via translation of scrolls, Book of Moses and portions of his translation of the Bible) or a historical accounting.  It also contains our out of the ordinary inclusions which was neither but of importance (the Articles of Faith).

Yes, the Sermon was at conference, but it was originally a Funeral Talk and as such is noted that it is the Funeral Sermon/talk from King Follett (and hence the name we commonly ascribe to it, plus...the Ensign called it that and we have called it such ever since.).

 

Edited October 31, 2018 by JohnsonJones

[The Folk Prophet]

20 minutes ago, mikbone said:

53 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

 

Any canonization after Joseph Smith has been few and far between.

Your point being?

Does God lead the church or did Joseph Smith?

[CV75]

2 hours ago, mikbone said:

I like where you are going.  I don't think that my concepts negates grace, in my opinion it actually makes the dependence upon those that have gone on before even more demanding. 

And adoption is extremely important.  When we are baptized, and the holy spirit of promise seals the ordinance, we are spiritually reborn of Christ and he claims us as his.  But we really become his children when we do and act in the same fashion as He did...

Ahh, thank you.  The concept of an immortal body being taken away.  Tell me more about that.

Alma 11:45, D&C 93:33, D&C 138:17

There are no "separably connected" spirit and element in an immortal (resurrected) body. Every other bodily estate in scripture (paradisaical, translated) is separable even if only for a twinkling of an eye. This means there is no re-entry into another mortal estate in which to perform the labors of a Christ.

Christ' mission began as a pre-mortal spirit when He led the council and war in heaven and created the earth, both indispensable to His mortal mission. Our doing the same thing after the resurrection would require us to lose our resurrected bodies and lead other spirits, with the advantage of having lived a faithful earth life already (by knowledge, not faith, and this is Heavenly Father's role, not the Firstborn Spirit's). Unless there is another veil placed between the loss of the resurrected body and entry into a new realm as a Firstborn Spirit, faith would take a backseat to knowledge, which misses the whole point and character of a spirit who becomes the Christ, and negates the point of doing what He witnessed the Father do in His mortality.

[mikbone]

4 hours ago, CV75 said:

There are no "separably connected" spirit and element in an immortal (resurrected) body. Every other bodily estate in scripture (paradisaical, translated) is separable even if only for a twinkling of an eye. This means there is no re-entry into another mortal estate in which to perform the labors of a Christ.

Christ' mission began as a pre-mortal spirit when He led the council and war in heaven and created the earth, both indispensable to His mortal mission. Our doing the same thing after the resurrection would require us to lose our resurrected bodies and lead other spirits, with the advantage of having lived a faithful earth life already (by knowledge, not faith, and this is Heavenly Father's role, not the Firstborn Spirit's). Unless there is another veil placed between the loss of the resurrected body and entry into a new realm as a Firstborn Spirit, faith would take a backseat to knowledge, which misses the whole point and character of a spirit who becomes the Christ, and negates the point of doing what He witnessed the Father do in His mortality.

Alma 11:45 is generally interpreted in that a resurrected body is perfect and can no longer be separated or harmed. 

I have an alternate interpretation, possibly because Im a doc and I love sci/fi stuff...

If we look at a resurrected body, is it indestructible?  Is it harder than diamond?  Can it sustain the pressures within a neutron star?  I dunno, but I doubt it.

Christ was able to interact with people after the resurrection and it seemed as if His body was perfect but also malleable. 

What if a resurrected body was indestructible not because it cannot be harmed but because the resurrected personage could heal any injury or clothe his spirit with matter at will?

Kinda like Dr. Manhattan from the Watchmen.    Just a though...

If so, a resurrected personage could drop his or her body (the tangible matter) and move at the speed of light anywhere they desired; and then, when they arrived at the location they chose, they could then re-create their body from physical element.  That would be freakin cool. 

 

We don't know when Jehovah's mission began.  He pre-dates our organization into spirit children.  Moses 5:57, Ether 3:14, D&C 93:21  These scriptures explain that Jehovah was prepared to be our savior prior to the foundation of the world.   We don't know how He was prepared, but I assume that He received sufficient instruction which provided absolute conditioning against sin.  And teaching that caused him to be more intelligent than the rest of the pre-mortal spirits combined.   And changed him such that He was recognizable as "one like unto God"  Abr 3:24

 

What do you mean by faith taking a backseat to knowledge?   Kinda like the Brother of Jared in Ether 3:19-20.

Edited November 1, 2018 by mikbone

[CV75]

15 hours ago, mikbone said:

Alma 11:45 is generally interpreted in that a resurrected body is perfect and can no longer be separated or harmed. 

I have an alternate interpretation, possibly because Im a doc and I love sci/fi stuff...

If we look at a resurrected body, is it indestructible?  Is it harder than diamond?  Can it sustain the pressures within a neutron star?  I dunno, but I doubt it.

Christ was able to interact with people after the resurrection and it seemed as if His body was perfect but also malleable. 

What if a resurrected body was indestructible not because it cannot be harmed but because the resurrected personage could heal any injury or clothe his spirit with matter at will?

Kinda like Dr. Manhattan from the Watchmen.    Just a though...

If so, a resurrected personage could drop his or her body (the tangible matter) and move at the speed of light anywhere they desired; and then, when they arrived at the location they chose, they could then re-create their body from physical element.  That would be freakin cool.

We don't know when Jehovah's mission began.  He pre-dates our organization into spirit children.  Moses 5:57, Ether 3:14, D&C 93:21  These scriptures explain that Jehovah was prepared to be our savior prior to the foundation of the world.   We don't know how He was prepared, but I assume that He received sufficient instruction which provided absolute conditioning against sin.  And teaching that caused him to be more intelligent than the rest of the pre-mortal spirits combined.   And changed him such that He was recognizable as "one like unto God"  Abr 3:24

What do you mean by faith taking a backseat to knowledge?   Kinda like the Brother of Jared in Ether 3:19-20.

Daniel’s body and those of his fellows were not destroyed in the furnace. Mortal destructibility has more to do with a lack of power over the attendant elements than the inherent separability of their spirits and bodies as mortals. God intervened. Sometimes He also gives power over the elements to us mortals.

The inseparably connected body and element describes the resurrected body and the potential for a fulness of joy and glory. I’m not sure what else inseparably connected means. Our spirits and bodies can be separated in full (death) or in part (missing or imperfect pieces or functions), but that is part of our world, not His.

We do not know the physiology and maintenance of God’s tabernacle and whether He can become separable and inseparably connected at will, but if God can reconstitute His body with elements that did not travel with Him, He could as easily bring them inseparably connected with Him in the first place. Knowing what we do about spacetime as a fabric (i.e. integrated elements at whatever scale one chooses) and the slow speed of eternity, His desire for physical travel needn’t have anything to do with where He desires to appear.

Faith and knowledge are indispensable to each other as Alma 32 describes. I see them as different forms of the same thing, rather entangled, with faith being foreknowledge and knowledge being confirmed faith. Jared’s discovery was one point of truth, and it served to give him more faith. Faith was not taking a backseat at all. But here is how it does take a backseat:

Without a veil, there is no faith. Jesus was born with a veil and so exercised faith to receive grace for grace. Without that condition and experience, and possessing an inherent state of instant knowledge, He would lack the agency to exercise for gaining knowledge (including the perfect empathy to know what we go through). The functional and complementary opposition between faith and knowledge would be absent or inoperative, and so He might as well not exist.

The plan to take a resurrected god, separate him from his body, send him to an earth with a new veil and a new body to be a savior for others to witness gets frustrated when the veil permits the memory of what he saw his father do in a world prior to the foundation of this one. It could be said that the veil between us and the premortal life, as the veil into the next world, opens to our minds as a product of faith -- and this can happen -- but not to remember things we eye-witnessed others do within the confines of their veil and which we are to do ourselves, but rather as a testimony of the plan of salvation and perhaps our role within it (which we also get from a Patriarchal Blessing).

[Guest]

17 hours ago, mikbone said:

Alma 11:45 is generally interpreted in that a resurrected body is perfect and can no longer be separated or harmed. 

I have an alternate interpretation, possibly because Im a doc and I love sci/fi stuff...

If we look at a resurrected body, is it indestructible?  Is it harder than diamond?  Can it sustain the pressures within a neutron star?  I dunno, but I doubt it.

Why not?  Looking at it from the viewpoint of physics, what destroys an object is the transfer of energy.  As immortal beings, it would appear that we can absorb quite a bit of energy.

17 hours ago, mikbone said:

Christ was able to interact with people after the resurrection and it seemed as if His body was perfect but also malleable. 

Energy absorbtion tends to go hand-in-hand with malleability.

17 hours ago, mikbone said:

What if a resurrected body was indestructible not because it cannot be harmed but because the resurrected personage could heal any injury or clothe his spirit with matter at will?

This is where our ideas intersect.  The "instant healing" could be achieved by complete energy absorbtion.

17 hours ago, mikbone said:

Kinda like Dr. Manhattan from the Watchmen.    Just a though...

Well, I appreciate the analogy.  But that means we're drifting into "God has no tangible body" territory.

17 hours ago, mikbone said:

If so, a resurrected personage could drop his or her body (the tangible matter) and move at the speed of light anywhere they desired; and then, when they arrived at the location they chose, they could then re-create their body from physical element.  That would be freakin cool. 

There's no reason I can think of that this doesn't happen.  In fact, there would be only a few ways to travel instantenously that we're aware of.  And that would be one of them.

Another is some form of portal.

Another is merging of two points in space.  That is, we don't actually move.  Space moves or distorts until two points are in the same location.  Then the body "chooses" which one to remain in when the space re-aligns back to "normal".

It could also be that existing in multiple dimensions would allow instantaneous movement across all of space.  This is demonstrated by the N+2 dimensions concept.

[mikbone]

7 hours ago, CV75 said:

Faith and knowledge are indispensable to each other as Alma 32 describes. I see them as different forms of the same thing, rather entangled, with faith being foreknowledge and knowledge being confirmed faith. Jared’s discovery was one point of truth, and it served to give him more faith. Faith was not taking a backseat at all. But here is how it does take a backseat:

Without a veil, there is no faith. Jesus was born with a veil and so exercised faith to receive grace for grace. Without that condition and experience, and possessing an inherent state of instant knowledge, He would lack the agency to exercise for gaining knowledge (including the perfect empathy to know what we go through). The functional and complementary opposition between faith and knowledge would be absent or inoperative, and so He might as well not exist.

The plan to take a resurrected god, separate him from his body, send him to an earth with a new veil and a new body to be a savior for others to witness gets frustrated when the veil permits the memory of what he saw his father do in a world prior to the foundation of this one. It could be said that the veil between us and the premortal life, as the veil into the next world, opens to our minds as a product of faith -- and this can happen -- but not to remember things we eye-witnessed others do within the confines of their veil and which we are to do ourselves, but rather as a testimony of the plan of salvation and perhaps our role within it (which we also get from a Patriarchal Blessing).

 

Ether 3:19 Explains that the Brother of Jared " had faith no longer, fore he knew, nothing doubting."  When Mahonri received his calling and election he was brought back through the veil, recognized Jehovah as the character that said "Here am I send me" (Abr 3:27) and he was reunited with his pre-mortal memories.  Perhaps Mahonri still required faith in things like hoping his family and fellow Jaredites would follow the Lord.  But Mahonri's mortal probationary test was over, he no longer had any requirements of faith to understand who God was, or the plan of salvation.  

I'm not sure when Jesus Christ penetrated the veil, but it is obvious, to me at least, that at age 12 there was no veil between him and our Heavenly Father.  

There are many reasons that I like this possibility of a God having the capacity of donning and doffing his or her body.  Other than being totally cool...

It would explain things like how the Holy Ghost has no body yet is a God...

It might explain the occasions in the scriptures when it appears that the antemortal Jehovah had a body.  For Example

D&C 107:53-55  The Lord administered comfort unto Adam

Genesis 18  The Lord appears to Abraham, and Abraham asks for water and bread to be fetched

Genesis 32: 24-30  Jacob wrestles with a "man" who dislocates his knee, refuses to give him his name, blesses him and changes his name to Israel (Contender with God), and then Jacob names the place Peniel (Face of God)

Exodus 31: 18  Tablets of testimony written with the finger of God

Joshua 5: 13-15  Captain of the host of the Lord appears to Joshua, and Joshua assumes that he is a mortal man. 

Ether 3  Wherein the Brother of Jared sees the hand of Jehovah touch the stones and Mahonri supposes that Jehovah is a mortal man, verse 8 - "I knew not that the Lord had flesh and blood 

[mikbone]

6 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Why not?  Looking at it from the viewpoint of physics, what destroys an object is the transfer of energy.  As immortal beings, it would appear that we can absorb quite a bit of energy.

Energy absorbtion tends to go hand-in-hand with malleability.

This is where our ideas intersect.  The "instant healing" could be achieved by complete energy absorbtion.

Well, I appreciate the analogy.  But that means we're drifting into "God has no tangible body" territory.

There's no reason I can think of that this doesn't happen.  In fact, there would be only a few ways to travel instantenously that we're aware of.  And that would be one of them.

Another is some form of portal.

Another is merging of two points in space.  That is, we don't actually move.  Space moves or distorts until two points are in the same location.  Then the body "chooses" which one to remain in when the space re-aligns back to "normal".

It could also be that existing in multiple dimensions would allow instantaneous movement across all of space.  This is demonstrated by the N+2 dimensions concept.

 

It is interesting how people perceive God.  200 years ago people probably thought that God was a Shaman or Sorcerer that used magic to achieve miracles.  Back then we had just barely figured out that the Earth orbits the Sun, but we had no idea about concepts like Galaxies or even the outer planets like Neptune or Pluto.  

Today we have a better handle on physics, and basic science.

I think of God as a Kardashev level 7 scientist with the ability to manipulate matter as sees fit, travel between and create multiverses.  

His power and knowledge is limitless.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, mikbone said:

I think of God as a Kardashev level 7 scientist with the ability to manipulate matter as sees fit, travel between and create multiverses.  

Would he, though?  Doesn't light (energy) flow from him?  Is he not the "fountain of all righteousness"?

3 hours ago, mikbone said:

His power and knowledge is limitless.

On that we agree.

[mordorbund]

4 hours ago, mikbone said:

outer planets like ... Pluto

That's right. Teach the controversy.

 

Edited November 2, 2018 by mordorbund

[mikbone]

Poor dwarf planet Pluto cant clear out its orbit...

[Rob Osborn]

Not sure exactly how it works, physics and all, but our urimm and thummim is a travel device. One looks through it, finds where they want to travel to in the universe, and then power it up by faith and almost instantly travel there through space to that destination.

Edited November 2, 2018 by Rob Osborn

[CV75]

15 hours ago, mikbone said:

Ether 3:19 Explains that the Brother of Jared " had faith no longer, fore he knew, nothing doubting."  When Mahonri received his calling and election he was brought back through the veil, recognized Jehovah as the character that said "Here am I send me" (Abr 3:27) and he was reunited with his pre-mortal memories.  Perhaps Mahonri still required faith in things like hoping his family and fellow Jaredites would follow the Lord.  But Mahonri's mortal probationary test was over, he no longer had any requirements of faith to understand who God was, or the plan of salvation.  

I'm not sure when Jesus Christ penetrated the veil, but it is obvious, to me at least, that at age 12 there was no veil between him and our Heavenly Father.  

There are many reasons that I like this possibility of a God having the capacity of donning and doffing his or her body.  Other than being totally cool...

It would explain things like how the Holy Ghost has no body yet is a God...

It might explain the occasions in the scriptures when it appears that the antemortal Jehovah had a body.  For Example

D&C 107:53-55  The Lord administered comfort unto Adam

Genesis 18  The Lord appears to Abraham, and Abraham asks for water and bread to be fetched

Genesis 32: 24-30  Jacob wrestles with a "man" who dislocates his knee, refuses to give him his name, blesses him and changes his name to Israel (Contender with God), and then Jacob names the place Peniel (Face of God)

Exodus 31: 18  Tablets of testimony written with the finger of God

Joshua 5: 13-15  Captain of the host of the Lord appears to Joshua, and Joshua assumes that he is a mortal man. 

Ether 3  Wherein the Brother of Jared sees the hand of Jehovah touch the stones and Mahonri supposes that Jehovah is a mortal man, verse 8 - "I knew not that the Lord had flesh and blood 

There are several kinds of “veils” and penetrating the veil over the premortal world is not required to be brought into the presence of God (for whatever purpose) or to receive revelation and instruction from His emissaries. These sights are covered by other veils. Jesus certainly penetrated many veils throughout the course of His lifetime and learned by faith to follow the path of His Father. The discourse describes this path in terms of eternal progress and kingdoms, not the mission path Jesus trod in mortality.

I think this line from the discourse says it all about where the Father stood in His mortal probation: “Every man who has got a friend in the eternal world can save him, unless he has committed the unpardonable sin. You can save any man who has not committed the unpardonable sin. So you see how far you can be a savior.”

Man is spirit; God is Spirit; we are still men, gods and God whether we have bodies or not. But “inseparability” with element, as with “sealing” (or “fixing” into exaltation), is a permanent estate since Gods do not become “unsealed” or “unseated” any more than they become “separable” from element. This is why there are other, much better explanations for the examples you raised, including a more complete summary of the text.

Edited November 2, 2018 by CV75

[mikbone]

On 11/2/2018 at 8:02 AM, CV75 said:

There are several kinds of “veils” and penetrating the veil over the premortal world is not required to be brought into the presence of God (for whatever purpose) or to receive revelation and instruction from His emissaries. These sights are covered by other veils. Jesus certainly penetrated many veils throughout the course of His lifetime and learned by faith to follow the path of His Father. The discourse describes this path in terms of eternal progress and kingdoms, not the mission path Jesus trod in mortality.

 

I think this line from the discourse says it all about where the Father stood in His mortal probation: “Every man who has got a friend in the eternal world can save him, unless he has committed the unpardonable sin. You can save any man who has not committed the unpardonable sin. So you see how far you can be a savior.”

 

Man is spirit; God is Spirit; we are still men, gods and God whether we have bodies or not. But “inseparability” with element, as with “sealing” (or “fixing” into exaltation), is a permanent estate since Gods do not become “unsealed” or “unseated” any more than they become “separable” from element. This is why there are other, much better explanations for the examples you raised, including a more complete summary of the text.

 

Sorry for my late response, been busy

From my studies about the veil, there are multiple but some are more important than others.  

1.  Veil as a piece of clothing - This veil interestingly allows the wearer to see but conceals the identity of the person whom is wearing the veil.  As used by Leah on Jacob's wedding night. 

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/leah?lang=eng

2.  Veil of darkness D&C 38:5-8, or Dark veil of unbelief Alma 19:6, Ether 4:15.  Is a veil that is constructed by Lucifer and is made of chains instead of a cloth 2 Peter 2:24

3.  Veil that was torn at the Death of Christ in the temple.  Matthew 27:51.   This miraculous event was probably both symbolic and miraculous sign.  Before Christ's mortal ministry mankind really did not know the identity of God.  And although in the pre-mortal existence when Jehovah volunteered to be our savior we did not know what that position required (but apparently Jehovah did).  Even when Adam left the Garden and was performing burnt offerings (2 generations after he had been driven out of the garden) Adam did not know why he was performing the sacrifices.  It was only after angelic instruction that the gospel began to be taught to mankind.  Yet even so, man did not recognize the Messiah's role.  The Jewish people totally misunderstood and still misunderstand the Messiah.  Christianity only really began after Christ's death because at that time the veil was rent, we were finally able to recognize that Jesus Christ is our savior by means of the Atonement and Resurrection.  

4.   The veil that separates us from God the Father and our pre-mortal memories.  This I believe is a real veil and is symbolically represented in modern day temples.   When we leave the pre-mortal existence and God's presence, we pass thru the veil and our prior memories (but not our personalities) are taken from our recollection.  When we enter into the Celestial Kingdom we must pass through this veil to recoup our memories.  This event is best illustrated in Ether chapter 3 when Mahonri parts the veil and is reunited with his pre-mortal memories and recognizes our Lord and Savior for the first time.  This also explains Jehovah's Statement in 3 Ether 15  "And never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man believed in me as thou hast. Seest thou that ye are created after mine own image? Yea, even all men were created in the beginning after mine own image."

Also of import is that we do NOT pass thru this veil at death.  We are not reunited with our pre-mortal memories upon entrance into paradise or spirit prison.   And those members of Gods children who elect to reside in the terrestrial or telestial kingdom will never regain their pre-mortal memories (this is a protective blessing).  

 

Quote

What has Jesus said? All sins and all blasphemies, and every transgression, except one, that man can be guilty of, may be forgiven, and there is a salvation for all men either in this world or the world to come, who have not committed the unpardonable sin, there being a provision either in this world or the world of spirits. Hence God hath made a provision, that every spirit in the eternal world can be ferretted out and saved, unless he has committed that unpardonable sin, which cannot be remitted to him either in this world or in the world of spirits. God has wrought out a salvation for all men unless they have committed a certain sin <and every man who has got a friend in the eternal world can save him unless he has committed the unpardonable sin> and so you can see how far you can be a savior. A man cannot commit the unpardonable sin after the dissolution of the body, and there is a way possible for escape. Knowledge saves a man, and in a world of spirits no man can be exalted but by knowledge; so long as a man will not give heed to the commandments, he must abide without salvation. If a man has knowledge he can be saved, although if he has been guilty of great sins he will be punished for them; but when he consents to obey the Gospel, whether here or in the world of spirits, he is saved.

The above portion of Joseph Smith's April 7, 1844 conference talk, appears to talk about salvation from hell, and not Eternal Life.  To me, by means of spreading the gospel and teaching that men should obey the commandments, we can assist others from damnation to the Telestial kingdom.  Entrance into the Terrestrial kingdom require obedience to the Ten Commandments.  But entrance into the Celestial Kingdom requires ordinances.  

 

I don't follow your last paragraph.  There is Spirit, Physical Bodies, possibly even Intelligence.  We don't really know all the ins and outs of how they work though.   And I am not sure about their permanence.   Otherwise the line of argument that is employed in Alma 42 would have no meaning.  "if so, God would cease to be God."

 

Finally, I love the chapter Ether 3.  It is an awesome piece of literature.  And it has loads of commentary.  Many of which are worthless.  I challenge you to read it with an open mind.  And I wish to point out one thing.  Spirit Body is a term that was created by Bruce McConkie to explain his understanding of this chapter.  

Body - The physical tabernacle of flesh.

Personage of Spirit - A spirit without tabernacle of flesh which has the appearance of a man.  1 Ne 11:11, D&C 130:22

Body of Flesh and Blood - A mortal body.  Matthew 16:17, 1 Cor 15:50, Mosiah 7:27

Translated being - A changed body, sanctified in the flesh. 3 Ne 28:36-40

Spirit of Just Men Made Perfect - A personage of spirit whom passed thru mortality but died and is awaiting the resurrection.  D&C 129:3,6-7

Body of Flesh and Bone - An immortal body.  Luke 24:39

Spiritual Body - An immortal body that is quickened with spirit instead of blood.[1]  1 Cor 15:44-45, D&C 88:27, Alma 11:45

Spirit Body - this term is not found within the scriptures.  There is an entry found in the Topical Guide but none of the citations actually use the term.  Mormon Doctrine has an entry titled Spirit bodies wherein McConkie defines the term as follows:

Spirit Bodies - See Pre-existence, Spirit Birth, Spirit Children, Spiritual Bodies, Spirit World.  Our spirit bodies had their beginning in pre-existence when we were born as the spirit children of God our Father.  Through that birth process spirit element was organized into intelligent entities.  The bodies so created have all the parts of mortal bodies. The Brother of Jared saw Christ’s spirit finger and then his whole spirit body.  “I am Jesus Christ,” that glorious Personage said. “This body, which ye now behold is the body of my spirit; … and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh.” (Ether 3:14-17)

 

[1] “God Almighty himself dwells in eternal fire, flesh and blood cannot go there for all corruption is devoured by the fire-- our God is a consuming fire-- when our flesh is quickened by the Spirit, there will be no blood in the tabernacles,--” Joseph Smith Jr., Sermon delivered at Nauvoo temple grounds May 12, 1844. As recorded in the Thomas Bullock report. 

Ether, the Brother of Jared, Moroni, and Joseph Smith each had a hand in our current understanding of the Chapter.  Their words should be trusted.  

Edited November 4, 2018 by mikbone

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, mikbone said:

Also of import is that we do NOT pass thru this veil at death.  We are not reunited with our pre-mortal memories upon entrance into paradise or spirit prison.   And those members of Gods children who elect to reside in the terrestrial or telestial kingdom will never regain their pre-mortal memories (this is a protective blessing). 

What? Where you getting this?

[mikbone]

If we were reunited with our pre-mortal memories at death, do you think that any of the people in spirit prison would need to have missionaries come to teach them about the gospel?

Everyone that came here to Earth, actively fought against Lucifer and his minions during the pre-mortal war.  We knew the plan of salvation during the pre-mortal existence and we knew GOD.  

Why do you think every knee will bow and every tongue will confess?  Jesus Christ will convince everyone of their errors during the 2nd coming and prior to the final resurrection.

But if you don't make it back to the Celestial Kingdom, you never get to see God the Father again... D&C 76:71-77

We make assumptions all the time.  Many people assume that we will automatically be given our pre-mortal memories at death.  What scripture or reference gives any credence to this idea?

Ether 3:13 is clear, Mahonri penetrated the veil.  He was redeemed from the fall, and was brought back into the Lords presence,  And Jehovah ministered unto the Brother of Jared just as he ministered unto the Nephites.  See Ether 3:17-18 and contrast that with 3 Nephi 11: 14-15.  The temple symbolism becomes indicative.

As far as I know, no other Christian churches believe in the pre-mortal existence.  So when they die and go to paradise many of them will have already arrived in their perceived heaven.

Unless you are a superstar like Adam, Abraham or the Brother of Jared - you dont even get to go to Heaven (the celestial kingdom) until the morning of the first resurrection just prior to the Second Coming...

 

Edited November 5, 2018 by mikbone