Does God’s Patience Change Over Time?

[CV75]

1 hour ago, mikbone said:

Joseph Smith General Conference April 7, 1844

I know that many people hate this talk.  And indeed Joseph Smith felt that many of the Saint's that were assembled at this talk had apostate sentiments and wanted him silenced.

I love it, and wish that I had been able to experience this talk in its original glory.  But from my understanding of Joseph Smith's words we learn and grow as we progress.  Learning all the principles of exaltation will take lots of effort (the fear and trembling part).   Jehovah had the Keys to atonement and resurrection but did not exercise those keys until the end of his life...

I love it too. But I don't think it teaches that we need to be Christs on another world as a step in the ladder, nor that Jehovah developed His perfected sense of justice and mercy throughout the earth's continuance at the expense of those whose parents were both mortal, or that His atonement paid for this, His own infraction of justice and mercy.

Edited November 27, 2018 by CV75

[mikbone]

15 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I love it too. But I don't think it teaches that we need to be Christs on another world as a step in the ladder, nor that Jehovah developed His perfected sense of justice and mercy throughout the earth's continuance at the expense of those whose parents were both mortal, or that His atonement paid for this, His own infraction of justice and mercy.

I agree.  It does not teach that we must become Saviors. It does teach that we must progress thru stages just like those that have gone on before.  

[clbent04]

9 hours ago, Traveler said:

I think there is more of a problem in understanding scripture than in the attributes of G-d.  I have theory that G-d will step in and destroy a society when fully ripe - which I have theorized to mean that such societies are corrupting children.  In other words - it is not so much of what adults do that is corrupt as it is what is done to children to involve them in corruption to the point that developing children are unable overcome become adults capable of overcoming corrupt sexual and violence addictions (which I believe includes drugs) established in their childhood.

 

The Traveler

Accepting this theory would at least allow me to accept God is never changing, and neither is God’s threshold for determining when to unleash His wrath. 

Our world is corrupt, but at least for the most part we try and safeguard children (in the US at least — not too familiar with some of the more hostile areas in the world like certain counties in Africa). 

In my mind, 1 of 2 things must be true:

1. America today is overall more righteous than the nations God destroyed in the New Testament

2. God’s level of patience regarding holding back His wrath in the sight of sin has changed over time.

And I don’t accept that the multiple accounts within the Bible detailing God’s wrath can simply be chalked up to bad translations or cultural differences in describing events. I really believe God unleashed His wrath. 

My conservative side wants to accept #1 as the answer, but @mikbone has some good thoughts supporting #2. If anything, I think it’s absoluetly correct to say we truly don’t understand how Jesus Christ is who He is, and what the process is to achieving perfection. And what does achieving perfection really mean? Aligning your will to God in all things? Ok. Well, what exactly does that mean? We can only comprehend so much. We only have but a small glimpse and limited understanding into these things.

Edited November 27, 2018 by clbent04

[CV75]

10 hours ago, clbent04 said:

Accepting this theory would at least allow me to accept God is never changing, and neither is God’s threshold for determining when to unleash His wrath. 

Our world is corrupt, but at least for the most part we try and safeguard children (in the US at least — not too familiar with some of the more hostile areas in the world like certain counties in Africa). 

In my mind, 1 of 2 things must be true:

1. America today is overall more righteous than the nations God destroyed in the New Testament

2. God’s level of patience regarding holding back His wrath in the sight of sin has changed over time.

And I don’t accept that the multiple accounts within the Bible detailing God’s wrath can simply be chalked up to bad translations or cultural differences in describing events. I really believe God unleashed His wrath. 

My conservative side wants to accept #1 as the answer, but @mikbone has some good thoughts supporting #2. If anything, I think it’s absoluetly correct to say we truly don’t understand how Jesus Christ is who He is, and what the process is to achieving perfection. And what does achieving perfection really mean? Aligning your will to God in all things? Ok. Well, what exactly does that mean? We can only comprehend so much. We only have but a small glimpse and limited understanding into these things.

#3 might be that ancient and modern canon are not the best means to assess and make conclusions about God’s tolerance with populations over time. His treatment of large groups (including those taken up to Zion and those destroyed in the flood) seems to have more to do with the environment required for the covenant people to prepare the world for His first and second comings. In other words, I think it might be less about patience and more about strategy: maximizing opportunities for the covenant people to repent and do His work in behalf of the wicked who fall outside their covenant through sheer circumstance.

We may interpret this behavior in terms of patience and tolerance, or punishment and reward, but He does have a timetable to keep, which is not driven by His impatience and intolerance but by His love expressed through a set plan of happiness that is part and parcel of this earth’s temporal continuance.

I think Moroni 7 provides some excellent teaching on the link between knowledge, charity and perfection (laying hold upon every good thing through faith) which addresses your last paragraph.

[Traveler]

17 hours ago, mikbone said:

Kool.  I don't mind that you have a different opinion.  What does get under my skin is when someone says things like,

No is what I tell my kids.  

So, do you believe that there ever was a time when Jehovah was not perfect?  Is the Holy Ghost in your opinion perfect now?  In your timeline when does a soul become perfect?  Is Abraham perfect now?  As he has entered into his exaltation...  D&C 132: 29.  Are we perfect if we are raised in the morning of the first resurrection?

I just need to know what I am dealing with.  

 

As mortals - I do not believe we are near enough to perfect to understand what perfection actually is.  And those that think they know perfection are much farther from it than they are thinking (especially when they pretend they know more about it than what they show by what they do).  I am not the example of perfect - but I have evolved in thinking that perfection has very little to do with being an expert in doctrine and a lot more about loving others.  I am inclined to think that as I get peeved with others over doctrine that as smart as I am about so many things - the smartness is not helping me at all concerning perfection.

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

11 hours ago, clbent04 said:

Accepting this theory would at least allow me to accept God is never changing, and neither is God’s threshold for determining when to unleash His wrath. 

Our world is corrupt, but at least for the most part we try and safeguard children (in the US at least — not too familiar with some of the more hostile areas in the world like certain counties in Africa). 

In my mind, 1 of 2 things must be true:

1. America today is overall more righteous than the nations God destroyed in the New Testament

2. God’s level of patience regarding holding back His wrath in the sight of sin has changed over time.

And I don’t accept that the multiple accounts within the Bible detailing God’s wrath can simply be chalked up to bad translations or cultural differences in describing events. I really believe God unleashed His wrath. 

My conservative side wants to accept #1 as the answer, but @mikbone has some good thoughts supporting #2. If anything, I think it’s absoluetly correct to say we truly don’t understand how Jesus Christ is who He is, and what the process is to achieving perfection. And what does achieving perfection really mean? Aligning your will to God in all things? Ok. Well, what exactly does that mean? We can only comprehend so much. We only have but a small glimpse and limited understanding into these things.

I think there are two things that you have left out in your reference to attributes of G-d.

The first I would list is covenant.  G-d lives by covenant and he will do what he covenants to do.

The Second is that I do not believe it is necessary for G-d to do anything (especially in wrath) to cause our destruction - all he has to do is remove his protection or allow us to remove ourselves from his protection and we will be destroyed.

 

I believe there are 5 principles that define how G-d deals with us:

1. G-d will not do for us what we can do for ourselves.

2. G-d will do for us what we cannot do for ourselves.

3. G-d will not do  for us that which will be for our eternal detriment.

4. G-d will do  for us that which will be for our eternal benefit.

5. G-d will not do anything for us without our concurrency - meaning that because and by our agency G-d will not force anything upon us and we have the final say.

 

The Traveler

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

As mortals - I do not believe we are near enough to perfect to understand what perfection actually is.  And those that think they know perfection are much farther from it than they are thinking (especially when they pretend they know more about it than what they show by what they do).  I am not the example of perfect - but I have evolved in thinking that perfection has very little to do with being an expert in doctrine and a lot more about loving others.  I am inclined to think that as I get peeved with others over doctrine that as smart as I am about so many things - the smartness is not helping me at all concerning perfection.

 

The Traveler

As with a particle of faith, or even less (a desire to believe), a particle of understanding is sufficient to get us started and to keep us going. That is often the substrate for faith (hearing the word). I also think is part of why God deals with us in the 5 ways you listed!

[clbent04]

6 hours ago, CV75 said:

#3 might be that ancient and modern canon are not the best means to assess and make conclusions about God’s tolerance with populations over time. His treatment of large groups (including those taken up to Zion and those destroyed in the flood) seems to have more to do with the environment required for the covenant people to prepare the world for His first and second comings. In other words, I think it might be less about patience and more about strategy: maximizing opportunities for the covenant people to repent and do His work in behalf of the wicked who fall outside their covenant through sheer circumstance.

Well said.  It may be more about strategy.  I can buy into that.

6 hours ago, CV75 said:

We may interpret this behavior in terms of patience and tolerance, or punishment and reward, but He does have a timetable to keep, which is not driven by His impatience and intolerance but by His love expressed through a set plan of happiness that is part and parcel of this earth’s temporal continuance.

What exactly do you mean the Lord has a timetable to keep?  Are you saying the Lord is bound to a set time table in the decisions He makes?

[clbent04]

6 hours ago, Traveler said:

I am not the example of perfect - but I have evolved in thinking that perfection has very little to do with being an expert in doctrine and a lot more about loving others. 

YES

[clbent04]

5 hours ago, Traveler said:

I believe there are 5 principles that define how G-d deals with us:

1. G-d will not do for us what we can do for ourselves.

2. G-d will do for us what we cannot do for ourselves.

3. G-d will not do for us that which will be for our eternal detriment.

4. G-d will do for us that which will be for our eternal benefit.

5. G-d will not do anything for us without our concurrency - meaning that because and by our agency G-d will not force anything upon us and we have the final say.

Solid principles.

[CV75]

15 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

Well said.  It may be more about strategy.  I can buy into that.

What exactly do you mean the Lord has a timetable to keep?  Are you saying the Lord is bound to a set time table in the decisions He makes?

The way He expresses it in scripture, it is a timetable He established and honors. I'm sure He's built some flexibility and contingency into it, but by and large He has times set for certain things to ocurr and He works to make them happen.