Comparative repentance processes and outcomes

[Rob Osborn]

14 minutes ago, Jersey Boy said:

So the officially-recorded, clarifying teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith on the subject bear no weight with you at all. In the LDS Church, falling from one’s exaltation is not necessarily the same thing as becoming a son of perdition But these are the kinds of doctrinal errors one falls into when the firmly established and perfectly logical doctrine of degrees of post-resurrection glory is rejected in favor of a ‘one size fits all’ plan of salvation.

Two questions for you: Since you quoted from the prophet Joseph Smith in order to seemingly contradict the teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith by using an excerpt from D&C 132, please explain how the individuals in verses 15-17 are going receive the same degree of glory and reward as those who are fully exalted in the celestial kingdom by faithfully obeying the law of eternal marriage?

15 Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore, they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world.
16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.
17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their SAVED condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever. (D&C 132)

Next question: Please explain what you believe the Prophet Joseph Smith was actually teaching in the excerpt I quoted from his May 16, 1841 sermon?

I don't know what Joseph was teaching. I would suggest he was giving opinion on the matter. Section 132 is pretty clear that David's sin was blasphemy against the Holy Ghost and it states very clearly that blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is an unforgivable sin either in this life or the life to come. God cannot save a person whom cannot be forgiven. The atonement only has power to save those who can be forgiven. I am not sure why we wrest this topic. 

In the Joseph Smith Translation of the OT Joseph corrects the scripture where it states God forgives David to God does not forgive David.

David committed the unpardonable sin, there's really no way around that fact. So, what then becomes of those who committ the unpardonable sin?

27 The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord.

David had already entered into the everlasting covenant and then murdered, or rather had Uriah murdered.

[Jersey Boy]

36 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I don't know what Joseph was teaching. I would suggest he was giving opinion on the matter. Section 132 is pretty clear that David's sin was blasphemy against the Holy Ghost and it states very clearly that blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is an unforgivable sin either in this life or the life to come. God cannot save a person whom cannot be forgiven. The atonement only has power to save those who can be forgiven. I am not sure why we wrest this topic. 

In the Joseph Smith Translation of the OT Joseph corrects the scripture where it states God forgives David to God does not forgive David.

David committed the unpardonable sin, there's really no way around that fact. So, what then becomes of those who committ the unpardonable sin?

27 The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord.

David had already entered into the everlasting covenant and then murdered, or rather had Uriah murdered.

So you don’t know what the prophet Joseph Smith was teaching about “the sure mercies of David” in his May 16, 1841 sermon? So again  I ask, as best as you can determine, what do you think the prophet was teaching about the fate of David in his 1841 sermon? Give it your best shot. Regardless, to me it’s clear that because you reject the doctrine of the three degrees of glory you’re making the mistaken presumption that falling from one’s exaltation is synonymous with becoming a son of perdition. Meanwhile, the plain meaning of the excerpted portion of the prophet’s 1831 sermon presents a clear explanation that falling from one’s exaultation does not necessarily mean such persons are sons of perdition.

I noticed you didn’t offer any explanation as to your understanding of D&C 132:15-17. Will you please give us your take on what’s being taught in those verses concerning those saved individuals who do not obey the law of eternal marriage?

 

 

[Traveler]

10 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Well, we know that neither is forgiven nor can be forgiven their sin so it isn't true that God would forgive them. Otherwise the scriptures aren't true.

Are you claiming that Jesus did not suffer or atone for these sins?

One other question - have you received The New and Everlasting Covenant?

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

Are you claiming that Jesus did not suffer or atone for these sins?

One other question - have you received The New and Everlasting Covenant?

 

The Traveler

The new and everlasting covenant is the laws and ordinances of the gospel along with it's accompanying covenants. And yes, just like David,vI have received them.

The atonement doesn't cover the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. That sin can't be forgiven.

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, Jersey Boy said:

So you don’t know what the prophet Joseph Smith was teaching about “the sure mercies of David” in his May 16, 1841 sermon? So again  I ask, as best as you can determine, what do you think the prophet was teaching about the fate of David in his 1841 sermon? Give it your best shot. Regardless, to me it’s clear that because you reject the doctrine of the three degrees of glory you’re making the mistaken presumption that falling from one’s exaltation is synonymous with becoming a son of perdition. Meanwhile, the plain meaning of the excerpted portion of the prophet’s 1831 sermon presents a clear explanation that falling from one’s exaultation does not necessarily mean such persons are sons of perdition.

I noticed you didn’t offer any explanation as to your understanding of D&C 132:15-17. Will you please give us your take on what’s being taught in those verses concerning those saved individuals who do not obey the law of eternal marriage?

 

 

I'm only going off what the scriptures state. They state he committed blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. 

Falling from ones exaltation is synonymous with becoming a son of perdition. All other sins are forgiven the saints and they can still enter their exaltation. David will be damned. That's eternal damnation in his case which is suffering in hell.

[Jersey Boy]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

I'm only going off what the scriptures state. They state he committed blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. 

Falling from ones exaltation is synonymous with becoming a son of perdition. All other sins are forgiven the saints and they can still enter their exaltation. David will be damned. That's eternal damnation in his case which is suffering in hell.

But that’s not what the prophet Joseph Smith taught in his 1841 sermon concerning the fate of David, when he explained that David would ultimately be forgiven, but only after suffering in hell till the final resurrection. The reason why the prophet testified David would be forgiven and not become a son of perdition is because one must have a perfect knowledge and testimony of the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ first, and then wholly turn away therefrom. But the prophet taught David would finally be forgiven because when he was king iit was during the Mosaic dispensation, when the fulness of Gospel knowledge had been withdrawn from the earth and the Lord’s people were living under the laws and ordinances of the Aaronic Priesthood and it’s less than full, preparitory gospel of carnal commandments.

You still haven’t elucidated your understanding of D&C 132:15-17. If you fail to do so again, I will only be able to conclude you’ve been doctrinally checkmated, and for that embarrassing reason you’re unwilling to respond.

Edited December 24, 2018 by Jersey Boy

[Rob Osborn]

4 hours ago, Jersey Boy said:

But that’s not what the prophet Joseph Smith taught in his 1841 sermon concerning the fate of David, when he explained that David would ultimately be forgiven, but only after suffering in hell till the final resurrection. The reason why the prophet testified David would be forgiven and not become a son of perdition is because one must have a perfect knowledge and testimony of the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ first, and then wholly turn away therefrom. But the prophet taught David would finally be forgiven because when he was king iit was during the Mosaic dispensation, when the fulness of Gospel knowledge had been withdrawn from the earth and the Lord’s people were living under the laws and ordinances of the Aaronic Priesthood and it’s less than full, preparitory gospel of carnal commandments.

You still haven’t elucidated your understanding of D&C 132:15-17. If you fail to do so again, I will only be able to conclude you’ve been doctrinally checkmated, and for that embarrassing reason you’re unwilling to respond.

Well, you can believe that if you want but the scriptures testify otherwise on the matter. An unforgivable sin is an unforgivable sin. It doesn't mean that eventually they will be forgiven. 

I haven't responded to verses 15-17 yet because this issue I wanted to hammer out more. My own personal pinion is that this is one of those line upon line issues. A strict reading has it as impossible to be given in marriage or yo be sealed after one dies. So then, why do we seal dead couples by proxy in temples? Clearly we are missing more info here.

My personal opinion is that we shall find that salvation itself will not be possible without a spouse as per the knowledge we gain in the endowment. But that's a completely different subject matter.

[Jersey Boy]

On 12/24/2018 at 7:39 PM, Rob Osborn said:

Well, you can believe that if you want but the scriptures testify otherwise on the matter. An unforgivable sin is an unforgivable sin. It doesn't mean that eventually they will be forgiven. 

I haven't responded to verses 15-17 yet because this issue I wanted to hammer out more. My own personal pinion is that this is one of those line upon line issues. A strict reading has it as impossible to be given in marriage or yo be sealed after one dies. So then, why do we seal dead couples by proxy in temples? Clearly we are missing more info here.

My personal opinion is that we shall find that salvation itself will not be possible without a spouse as per the knowledge we gain in the endowment. But that's a completely different subject matter.

You see I haven’t been replying to your posts in a timely fashion. The reason why is I’ve come to realize trying to have a profitable dialogue with you is nigh unto impossible because you casually explain away any verses of scripture that don’t fit your no degrees of post-resurrection paradigm. Please explain how the following verse fits into your plan of salvation paradigm?

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;
110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;
111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared;
112 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end. (D&C 76)

Edited January 3, 2019 by Jersey Boy

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, Jersey Boy said:

You see I haven’t been replying to your posts in a timely fashion. The reason why is I’ve come to realize trying to have a profitable dialogue with you is nigh unto impossible because you casually explain away any verses of scripture that don’t fit your no degrees of post-resurrection paradigm. Please explain how the following verse fits into your plan of salvation paradigm?

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;
110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;
111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared;
112 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end. (D&C 76)

My understanding is that we are now on/in the telestial world/kingdom. We cannot go where God and Christ now dwell. And where do they dwell? On worlds without end.

[Guest Scott]

Oops, quoted the wrong person.  Will fix in next post.

Edited January 4, 2019 by Scott

[Guest Scott]

On 12/24/2018 at 11:38 AM, Rob Osborn said:

I'm only going off what the scriptures state. They state he committed blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. 

Falling from ones exaltation is synonymous with becoming a son of perdition. All other sins are forgiven the saints and they can still enter their exaltation. David will be damned. That's eternal damnation in his case which is suffering in hell.

I'm late to the party perhaps, but the scriptures, LDS scripture aids, and words of the prophets all say that David is not in Outer Darkness, which is where sons of perdition go.

See the Guide to the Scriptures, for example, which also gives the scriptural references.  This is an exact cut and paste complete with the link:

The scriptures sometimes refer to hell as outer darkness.

David’s soul shall not be left in hell, Ps. 16:10 (Ps. 86:13).

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/hell?lang=eng

Wasn't it you who said the Guide to the Scriptures was official church doctrine and never to be disagreed with?  

[Just_A_Guy]

Also from Joseph Smith

Quote

“David sought repentance at the hand of God carefully with tears, for the murder of Uriah; but he could only get it through hell: he got a promise that his soul should not be left in hell” (TPJS 339).

I would also note that in spite of the perfectly human tendency to insert one’s own pet theories into every conceivable discussion—regardless of relevancy—and thereby become the bride at every wedding and the corpse at every funeral, we do have a question in the OP that maybe hasn’t gotten as much attention in this thread as it deserves.  

Edited January 4, 2019 by Just_A_Guy

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, Scott said:

I'm late to the party perhaps, but the scriptures, LDS scripture aids, and words of the prophets all say that David is not in Outer Darkness, which is where sons of perdition go.

See the Guide to the Scriptures, for example, which also gives the scriptural references.  This is an exact cut and paste complete with the link:

The scriptures sometimes refer to hell as outer darkness.

David’s soul shall not be left in hell, Ps. 16:10 (Ps. 86:13).

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/hell?lang=eng

Wasn't it you who said the Guide to the Scriptures was official church doctrine and never to be disagreed with?  

The Guide to the Scriptures is the official doctrine of the church. That's what I usually quote in reference to questions regarding the official position of the church. That said, the scriptures themselves are most authoritive as far as official doctrine is concerned. To add, I never said it is never to be disagreed with.

Edited January 4, 2019 by Rob Osborn

[Guest Scott]

9 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

The Guide to the Scriptures is the official doctrine of the church. That's what I usually quote in reference to questions regarding the official position of the church. That said, the scriptures themselves are most authoritive as far as official doctrine is concerned. To add, I never said it is never to be disagreed with.

So I am to understand correctly that you disagree with the Guide to the Scriptures on this matter since it says that David's soul will not be left in hell?

Edited January 4, 2019 by Scott

[Rob Osborn]

42 minutes ago, Scott said:

So I am to understand correctly that you disagree with the Guide to the Scriptures on this matter since it says that David's soul will not be left in hell?

Well, I'm putting that against the D&C where it says his sin won't be forgiven him in either this life or the next. So, not really sure how one can be redeemed from hell if they can't be forgiven.

[Guest Scott]

15 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Well, I'm putting that against the D&C where it says his sin won't be forgiven him in either this life or the next. So, not really sure how one can be redeemed from hell if they can't be forgiven.

Just because he isn't forgiven doesn't meant that he is in or will stay in outer darkness.   Church teachings, scriptures, and study aids all say this.   In addition the quote from Joseph Smith provided by Just-A-Guy and the Guide to the Scriptures, the Bible Dictionary (even if it isn't official Church doctrine) says the following:

 As a consequence David is still unforgiven, but he received a promise that the Lord would not leave his soul in hell. He will be resurrected at the end of the Millennium. Because of his transgressions, he has fallen from his exaltation (D&C 132:39).

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/david?lang=eng&letter=D

In addition the scriptures themselves which are referenced in such study aids say that God himself promised David that he would not leave his soul in hell. See Psalm 16:10 and 86:13.

Also, the D&C verses you quote say the following:

39 David’s wives and concubines were given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the keys of this power; and in none of these things did he sin against me save in the case of Uriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath fallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I gave them unto another, saith the Lord."

The fact that David received his portion seems to indicate that David is not a Son of Perdition or forever in Outer Darkness.  The scriptures and teachings are very clear in that those in Outer Darkness receive no portion.  

[Rob Osborn]

55 minutes ago, Scott said:

Just because he isn't forgiven doesn't meant that he is in or will stay in outer darkness.   Church teachings, scriptures, and study aids all say this.   In addition the quote from Joseph Smith provided by Just-A-Guy and the Guide to the Scriptures, the Bible Dictionary (even if it isn't official Church doctrine) says the following:

 As a consequence David is still unforgiven, but he received a promise that the Lord would not leave his soul in hell. He will be resurrected at the end of the Millennium. Because of his transgressions, he has fallen from his exaltation (D&C 132:39).

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/david?lang=eng&letter=D

In addition the scriptures themselves which are referenced in such study aids say that God himself promised David that he would not leave his soul in hell. See Psalm 16:10 and 86:13.

Also, the D&C verses you quote say the following:

39 David’s wives and concubines were given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the keys of this power; and in none of these things did he sin against me save in the case of Uriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath fallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I gave them unto another, saith the Lord."

The fact that David received his portion seems to indicate that David is not a Son of Perdition or forever in Outer Darkness.  The scriptures and teachings are very clear in that those in Outer Darkness receive no portion.  

I disagree. "Portion" here is not defined. It could just as easily he in reference to -

17 Wherefore, I, the Lord, have said that the fearful, and the unbelieving, and all liars, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie, and the whoremonger, and the sorcerer, shall have their part in that lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, which is the second death. 

The bottom line is Christ will save all those he can through the gospel and all the saved will be forgiven and cleansed. David committed the unpardonable sin which means he can't be forgiven. It clearly states this.

Edited January 4, 2019 by Rob Osborn

[Guest Scott]

2 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

David committed the unpardonable sin which means he can't be forgiven. It clearly states this.

Yes, we all agree with this.   That still doesn't mean David will be forever in outer darkness unless God, Joseph Smith, the scriptures, study aids including the Guide to the Scriptures, etc. are all wrong or lying.  

[Rob Osborn]

3 minutes ago, Scott said:

Yes, we all agree with this.   That still doesn't mean David will be forever in outer darkness unless God, Joseph Smith, the scriptures, study aids including the Guide to the Scriptures, etc. are all wrong or lying.  

The scriptures themselves testify that David committed the unpardonable sin. The scriptures testify that one who committed the unpardonable sin is a son of perfition. Here-

33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;
            34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—
            35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.

Compare that with section 132-

27 The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord.

[Guest Scott]

Then why did God lie and say that David will not be left in hell?  

[Rob Osborn]

3 minutes ago, Scott said:

Then why did God lie and say that David will not be left in hell?  

We don't know if God lied or didn't. We can't be sure of the validity of text. We do know that part of the Bible was translated through Joseph Smith. In it he changed a key critical passage in reference to David's sin. Here-

13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said unto David, The Lord also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.

Now compare the JST which reversed the judgment-

13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said unto David, The Lord also hath not put away thy sin that thou shalt not die.

So, let me ask, did God lie in the Old Testament, or, was there an error? Certainly, based on this evidence, the validity of David's forgiveness from the OT perspective loses all credibility.

[Guest Scott]

8 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

We don't know if God lied or didn't. ...

So, let me ask, did God lie in the Old Testament, or, was there an error? Certainly, based on this evidence, the validity of David's forgiveness from the OT perspective loses all credibility.

As to the first statement-wow.   You really don't know if God does or doesn't lie?

As to the second part, if we are to believe Joseph Smith, there was an error and thus the JST of the verse which corrected it.   Even after Joseph Smith made the correction, he specifically stated that David will not be forever in Outer Darkness as pointed out by Just-A-Guy and all subsequent church sources.

Although I am confused why you even refer to any scripture at all, if as you say (exact quote) "we don't know if God lied or didn't".  If you don't know if God is lying or not, what's the point of even reading any scriptures at all?  

Edited January 4, 2019 by Scott

[Rob Osborn]

5 hours ago, Scott said:

As to the first statement-wow.   You really don't know if God does or doesn't lie?

As to the second part, if we are to believe Joseph Smith, there was an error and thus the JST of the verse which corrected it.   Even after Joseph Smith made the correction, he specifically stated that David will not be forever in Outer Darkness as pointed out by Just-A-Guy and all subsequent church sources.

Although I am confused why you even refer to any scripture at all, if as you say (exact quote) "we don't know if God lied or didn't".  If you don't know if God is lying or not, what's the point of even reading any scriptures at all?  

I already know God doesn't lie, neither does he change his statututes and laws. Therefore there must be an error in the script. That was my point. God doesn't have a double standard. If someone committed an unpardonable sin it doesn't mean "well, mostly". 

[Jersey Boy]

On 1/3/2019 at 5:07 PM, Rob Osborn said:

My understanding is that we are now on/in the telestial world/kingdom. We cannot go where God and Christ now dwell. And where do they dwell? On worlds without end.

Your understanding is incorrect because the scriptures clearly teach there are pre-resurrection Telestial Kingdoms, such as the fallen planet earth on which we now live, and post-resurrection Telestial Kingdoms, the post-resurrection dwelling places of those who are are not worthy of either the Terrestrial or Celestial kingdoms of post-resurrection glory.

If you are up to it, I have an interesting challenge for you: At the end of this post I’m going to post 18 consecutive verses from Doctrine & Covenants 88 for you to consider and study. The challenge consists in first you, and then me, giving our own personal analysis of each individual verse, one post at a time. By proceeding with our analysis of each iverse one post at a time, we’ll be able to be very deliberate, specific and thorough in our analysis, and be enabled to proceed in a very methodical and uncluttered way. 

If you are willing to take on the challenge, all you have to do is start by copying and pasting verse 16, along with your own best thoughtful analytical interpretation of what you believe the verse is teaching; I will then respond with my own interpretation of verse 16. Then you can continue the process by copying and posting verse 17 along with your commentary, and I’ll respond by doing the same. So as to keep things clear and simple throughout , we’ll hold off on directly debating each other on any points of disagreement until after the last verse has been analyzed .Hope you’re willing to take on this challenge because it could be enlightening and fun...

16 And the resurrection from the dead is the redemption of the soul.
17 And the redemption of the soul is through him that quickeneth all things, in whose bosom it is decreed that the poor and the meek of the earth shall inherit it.
18 Therefore, it must needs be sanctified from all unrighteousness, that it may be prepared for the celestial glory;
19 For after it hath filled the measure of its creation, it shall be crowned with glory, even with the presence of God the Father;
20 That bodies who are of the celestial kingdom may possess it forever and ever; for, for this intent was it made and created, and for this intent are they sanctified.
21 And they who are not sanctified through the law which I have given unto you, even the law of Christ, must inherit another kingdom, even that of a terrestrial kingdom, or that of a telestial kingdom.
22 For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory.
23 And he who cannot abide the law of a terrestrial kingdom cannot abide a terrestrial glory.
24 And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannot abide a telestial glory; therefore he is not meet for a kingdom of glory. Therefore he must abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory.
25 And again, verily I say unto you, the earth abideth the law of a celestial kingdom, for it filleth the measure of its creation, and transgresseth not the law--
26 Wherefore, it shall be sanctified; yea, notwithstanding it shall die, it shall be quickened again, and shall abide the power by which it is quickened, and the righteous shall inherit it.
27 For notwithstanding they die, they also shall rise again, a spiritual body.
28 They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened.
29 Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
30 And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
31 And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
32 And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.
33 For what doth it profit a man if a gift is bestowed upon him, and he receive not the gift? Behold, he rejoices not in that which is given unto him, neither rejoices in him who is the giver of the gift. (D&C 88)

Edited January 8, 2019 by Jersey Boy

[Rob Osborn]

51 minutes ago, Jersey Boy said:

Your understanding is incorrect because the scriptures clearly teach there are pre-resurrection Telestial Kingdoms, such as the fallen planet earth on which we now live, and post-resurrection Telestial Kingdoms, the post-resurrection dwelling places of those who are are not worthy of either the Terrestrial or Celestial kingdoms of post-resurrection glory.

If you are up to it, I have an interesting challenge for you: At the end of this post I’m going to post 18 consecutive verses from Doctrine & Covenants 88 for you to consider and study. The challenge consists in first you, and then me, giving our own personal analysis of each individual verse, one post at a time. By proceeding with our analysis of each iverse one post at a time, we’ll be able to be very deliberate, specific and thorough in our analysis, and be enabled to proceed in a very methodical and uncluttered way. 

If you are willing to take on the challenge, all you have to do is start by copying and pasting verse 16, along with your own best thoughtful analytical interpretation of what you believe the verse is teaching; I will then respond with my own interpretation of verse 16. Then you can continue the process by copying and posting verse 17 along with your commentary, and I’ll respond by doing the same. So as to keep things clear and simple throughout , we’ll hold off on directly debating each other on any points of disagreement until after the last verse has been analyzed .Hope you’re willing to take on this challenge because it could be enlightening and fun...

16 And the resurrection from the dead is the redemption of the soul.
17 And the redemption of the soul is through him that quickeneth all things, in whose bosom it is decreed that the poor and the meek of the earth shall inherit it.
18 Therefore, it must needs be sanctified from all unrighteousness, that it may be prepared for the celestial glory;
19 For after it hath filled the measure of its creation, it shall be crowned with glory, even with the presence of God the Father;
20 That bodies who are of the celestial kingdom may possess it forever and ever; for, for this intent was it made and created, and for this intent are they sanctified.
21 And they who are not sanctified through the law which I have given unto you, even the law of Christ, must inherit another kingdom, even that of a terrestrial kingdom, or that of a telestial kingdom.
22 For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory.
23 And he who cannot abide the law of a terrestrial kingdom cannot abide a terrestrial glory.
24 And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannot abide a telestial glory; therefore he is not meet for a kingdom of glory. Therefore he must abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory.
25 And again, verily I say unto you, the earth abideth the law of a celestial kingdom, for it filleth the measure of its creation, and transgresseth not the law--
26 Wherefore, it shall be sanctified; yea, notwithstanding it shall die, it shall be quickened again, and shall abide the power by which it is quickened, and the righteous shall inherit it.
27 For notwithstanding they die, they also shall rise again, a spiritual body.
28 They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened.
29 Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
30 And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
31 And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
32 And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.
33 For what doth it profit a man if a gift is bestowed upon him, and he receive not the gift? Behold, he rejoices not in that which is given unto him, neither rejoices in him who is the giver of the gift. (D&C 88)

Certainly, we can go over those verses one by one. But we need to start with verses 2-5 to preface the context.

2 Behold, this is pleasing unto your Lord, and the angels rejoice over you; the alms of your prayers have come up into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth, and are recorded in the book of the names of the sanctified, even them of the celestial world.
            3 Wherefore, I now send upon you another Comforter, even upon you my friends, that it may abide in your hearts, even the Holy Spirit of promise; which other Comforter is the same that I promised unto my disciples, as is recorded in the testimony of John.
            4 This Comforter is the promise which I give unto you of eternal life, even the glory of the celestial kingdom;
            5 Which glory is that of the church of the Firstborn, even of God, the holiest of all, through Jesus Christ his Son-

In verse 2 we read about the book of the names of the sanctified which are the inhabitants that will make up the Celestial world. This book is "the book of life". If your name is in it you are saved into the Celestial kingdom. But, if your name isn't in it you are the devil and his angels which go into the lake of fire and brimstone which is the second death.-

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
            13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
            14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
            15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:12-15)

This brings up an interesting point because in order to be saved one must be "sanctified" from "all" sin. This hearkens back to section 76 where it speaks of all those Christ saves (everyone except the son's of perdition) being sanctified from all sin-

40 And this is the gospel, the glad tidings, which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto us—
            41 That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness;
            42 That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him;
            
            43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.

The "world" spoken of here are his sheep- those the Father gave to him to save. And what is their status at the end of Christ's work? Sanctified and cleansed from "all unrighteousness". Thus, their names are accounted in the book of the names of the sanctified as that is what they all are- sanctified. The only group left are those son's of perfition who are "filthy still" who Christ does not save and are cast out with the devil and his angels.

In verse 4 it speaks of those receiving "eternal life" which is the "glory of the Celestial kingdom". This hearkens back again to those Christ saves on his right hand who all receive eternal life while the wicked are cast out with the devil and his angels. All of those Christ saves (everyone except the son's of perdition) receive eternal life. Here-

27 And the righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father;
            28 Wherefore I will say unto them—Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. (D&C 29:27-28)

In verse 5 we are told that glory is the Church of the Firstborn. During the millennium Christ will instruct the 144,000 to go out and ferret out all those to be saved to bring them to the Church of the Firstborn. This membership are Christ's sheep- those he saves. One must be born again through Christ in order to be saved. Consequently, those who do so become members of the Church of the Firstborn.-

22 And all those who are begotten through me are partakers of the glory of the same, and are the church of the Firstborn. (D&C 93:22)

So, with this preface in mind (and you are free to question this analysis) let's get started.