Flesh & Bone <—> Flesh & Blood?

[mikbone]

Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

[Guest]

14 hours ago, CV75 said:

I think instead, God can change His relative glory in the flesh by quickening others to behold and withstand His presence (several scripture references),

Certainly during theophanies, we see this.  But it becomes more difficult to use this as an explanation when speaking of events like Mary at the empty tomb or the two disciples on the road to Emmaus.  Or how about the visit to the Nephites?

I think something else was going on.

14 hours ago, CV75 said:

and perhaps by outwardly expressing less than His fulness, or containing the fulness of His glory.

This would seem more plausible to me in all these other situations.  And I don't see how partaking of telestial or terrestrial foods would be forbidden by a celestial being.  Our bodies are supposed to be incorruptible at that point.  So, why not?

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Anddenex said:

My only change to the word "change' would be "mask." He is able to mask His relative glory. Probably something personal within me that thinks mask is a better word for this statement.

I think that "mask" or "conceal" would apply to "outwardly expressing less than His fulness, or containing the fulness of His glory" since quickening the observers enables them to withstand His unmasked glory. The relative glory is changed in two ways, one by quickening (which doesn't entail masking) and one by masking.

[CV75]

1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

Certainly during theophanies, we see this.  But it becomes more difficult to use this as an explanation when speaking of events like Mary at the empty tomb or the two disciples on the road to Emmaus.  Or how about the visit to the Nephites?

I think something else was going on.

This would seem more plausible to me in all these other situations.  And I don't see how partaking of telestial or terrestrial foods would be forbidden by a celestial being.  Our bodies are supposed to be incorruptible at that point.  So, why not?

I agree that consuming telestial or terrestrial foods are not forbidden for celestial people visiting lesser worlds; my point is that they do not eat them in order to change their immortal clelestial bodies into mortal bodies, nor do they need to revert to a mortal frame in order to interact with mortals.

[CV75]

47 minutes ago, zil said:

I would say suppress or contain, but both mask and conceal have the same end.  I cannot remember where, but somewhere, it's written that resurrected beings appear to be able to suppress their glory, whereas spirits cannot.  Thus when visited by a resurrected being, that being may appear to be a regular person (as the resurrected Christ sometimes did), but when visited by a spirit, that spirit will always appear in whatever glory he may have.  Next time I find this, I really should make a note somewhere (right after making a somewhere in which to make the note - perhaps a scripture and a note in Gospel Library).

D&C 129 indicates that angels (even Christ) can be handled and seen (verses 1-2) irrespective of their higher glory (verse 3).

[mikbone]

I think that God can and does conceal his glory, and much more often than we have record.

I also believe that God can partake of any matter he so desires.  He understands alchemy (physics) and can convert lead into gold or air into a loaf of bread.  It does not matter to him.  If you understand atoms, quarks, etc. and can manipulate them; then your stewardship over matter is absolute.

My point of the OP is that the Lord likely has many tools at his disposal.  And that the fruit of the ToKoG&E and ToL, can be viewed as a pharmacological agent (tool) to change Adam & Eves bodies from immortal to mortal and back again. 

This change of Adam & Eve was required for all righteousness.

When I recognized that our unglorified bodies could be manipulated, I reasoned, why couldn’t the Lord manipulate his Glorified body as well?   It was a simple thought experiment.  

And I’m not saying that the fruit in the Garden is the only tool that can affect such changes.  Likely, the Lord has access to a limitless supply of tools that can achieve miraculous reasults.

And in my case that thought experiment led to a greater understanding allowing me to overcome a few conundrums.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, mikbone said:

I think that God can and does conceal his glory, and much more often than we have record.

I also believe that God can partake of any matter he so desires.  He understands alchemy (physics) and can convert lead into gold or air into a loaf of bread.  It does not matter to him.  If you understand atoms, quarks, etc. and can manipulate them; then your stewardship over matter is absolute.

My point of the OP is that the Lord likely has many tools at his disposal.  And that the fruit of the ToKoG&E and ToL, can be viewed as a pharmacological agent (tool) to change Adam & Eves bodies from immortal to mortal and back again. 

This change of Adam & Eve was required for all righteousness.

When I recognized that our unglorified bodies could be manipulated, I reasoned, why couldn’t the Lord manipulate his Glorified body as well?   It was a simple thought experiment.  

And I’m not saying that the fruit in the Garden is the only tool that can affect such changes.  Likely, the Lord has access to a limitless supply of tools that can achieve miraculous reasults.

And in my case that thought experiment led to a greater understanding allowing me to overcome a few conundrums.

What conundrums were resolved by the proposal that an exalted person alternates his body between mortal and immortal states?

[wenglund]

2 hours ago, mikbone said:

I think that God can and does conceal his glory, and much more often than we have record.

I also believe that God can partake of any matter he so desires.  He understands alchemy (physics) and can convert lead into gold or air into a loaf of bread.  It does not matter to him.  If you understand atoms, quarks, etc. and can manipulate them; then your stewardship over matter is absolute.

My point of the OP is that the Lord likely has many tools at his disposal.  And that the fruit of the ToKoG&E and ToL, can be viewed as a pharmacological agent (tool) to change Adam & Eves bodies from immortal to mortal and back again. 

This change of Adam & Eve was required for all righteousness.

When I recognized that our unglorified bodies could be manipulated, I reasoned, why couldn’t the Lord manipulate his Glorified body as well?   It was a simple thought experiment.  

And I’m not saying that the fruit in the Garden is the only tool that can affect such changes.  Likely, the Lord has access to a limitless supply of tools that can achieve miraculous reasults.

And in my case that thought experiment led to a greater understanding allowing me to overcome a few conundrums.

This passage in Exodus may prove useful to your thought experiment Exodus 34:29-35.:

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[mikbone]

46 minutes ago, CV75 said:

What conundrums were resolved by the proposal that an exalted person alternates his body between mortal and immortal states?

Without thought experiments Einstein would never had made any of his discoveries.  

It is useful to understand that God's thoughts are higher than our thoughts.  If we continue to limit our understanding of God by our perception of reality we will never come to a true understanding of his character.  

For example during my mission (Chile '89-'91), when a young woman showed up pregnant without a boyfriend or husband, I would assume that there was fornication involved.

But occasionally when I would address said condition the reply would be - "Trauco pues", while indicating toward the forest with pursed lips.  Sometimes the young woman would say this.  Other times it was the family members - including the parents?!

Of course, it was usually a local boy, or incest.  But, one time during an interview (prior to blessing a baby - I was the Branch President in a rural Chilean township), I was completely floored to find out that the baby's father was the Zone Leader that had been sent home 7 months prior for performing a totally incorrect baptismal interview...  No Joking!

 

That being said, today the options for pregnancy are crazy bizarre.  This happened in my hometown of Redding 13 years ago!  When a woman shows up pregnant today and its not apparent who the father is, it's best to just keep your mouth shut.  

 

[mikbone]

5 minutes ago, wenglund said:

This passage in Exodus may prove useful to your thought experiment Exodus 34:29-35.:

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Looks like Moses was transfigured.  

 

[CV75]

57 minutes ago, mikbone said:

Without thought experiments Einstein would never had made any of his discoveries.  

It is useful to understand that God's thoughts are higher than our thoughts.  If we continue to limit our understanding of God by our perception of reality we will never come to a true understanding of his character.  

For example during my mission (Chile '89-'91), when a young woman showed up pregnant without a boyfriend or husband, I would assume that there was fornication involved.

But occasionally when I would address said condition the reply would be - "Trauco pues", while indicating toward the forest with pursed lips.  Sometimes the young woman would say this.  Other times it was the family members - including the parents?!

Of course, it was usually a local boy, or incest.  But, one time during an interview (prior to blessing a baby - I was the Branch President in a rural Chilean township), I was completely floored to find out that the baby's father was the Zone Leader that had been sent home 7 months prior for performing a totally incorrect baptismal interview...  No Joking!

That being said, today the options for pregnancy are crazy bizarre.  This happened in my hometown of Redding 13 years ago!  When a woman shows up pregnant today and its not apparent who the father is, it's best to just keep your mouth shut.  

I very much appreciate thought experiments of all kinds, but my question is, what conundrums were resolved by the hypothesis that an exalted person alternates his body between mortal and immortal states?

[wenglund]

1 hour ago, mikbone said:

Looks like Moses was transfigured.  

 

Correct (see Moses 1:11)

It is similar to what is described of Jesus while on the Mount of Transfiguration (Mt 17:2 and Mk 9:2-3) 

There  are other examples as well (see Transfigured Beings)

The point being, is that mortals can't steadfastly bear even the face of transfigured beings (2 Cor. 3:7) , and so Moses had to place a veil over his face--i.e. mortals are shielded from the glory of glorified beings by virtue of the veil.

This ties in nicely with the veil of the temple, which is a metaphor for the veil covering fallen man (protecting them from the Holy of Holiess, the dwelling place of God) , which Christ rent through the atonement (see HERE)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

Edited January 14, 2019 by wenglund

[mikbone]

25 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I very much appreciate thought experiments of all kinds, but my question is, what conundrums were resolved by the hypothesis that an exalted person alternates his body between mortal and immortal states?

1) the creation of Adam & Eve

2) 'pre-mortal' appearances of Jehovah wherein He appears to have a body.

D&C 107:53-55  The Lord administered comfort unto Adam

Genesis 18  The Lord appears to Abraham, and Abraham asks for water and bread to be fetched

Genesis 32: 24-30  Jacob wrestles with a "man" who dislocates his knee, refuses to give him his name, blesses him and changes his name to Israel (Contender with God), and then Jacob names the place Peniel (Face of God)

Exodus 31: 18  Tablets of testimony written with the finger of God

Joshua 5: 13-15  Captain of the host of the Lord appears to Joshua, and Joshua assumes that he is a mortal man. 

Ether 3  Wherein the Brother of Jared sees the hand of Jehovah touch the stones to give them light during the voyage, and Mahonri supposes that Jehovah is a mortal man, verse 8 - "I knew not that the Lord had flesh and blood 

[wenglund]

16 minutes ago, mikbone said:

2) 'pre-mortal' appearances of Jehovah wherein He appears to have a body.

Are you assuming he didn't have a spirit body (Ether 3:16)--not to be confused with a mortal physical body (flesh and blood) or resurrected body (flesh and bone)?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

 

[mikbone]

2 hours ago, wenglund said:

Are you assuming he didn't have a spirit body (Ether 3:16)--not to be confused with a mortal physical body (flesh and blood) or resurrected body (flesh and bone)?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

 

In order to have a meaningful discussion about a corporeal body we must first define and agree upon the words that we use.  Although most of the terms that we use to describe bodies are precise, others are vague or commonly misinterpreted.  One term I particularly dislike is Spirit body.   

The definitive verse is found in D&C 130:22 – The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us. 

Body - The physical tabernacle of flesh.  

Personage of Spirit - A spirit without tabernacle of flesh which has the appearance of a man.  1 Ne 11:11, D&C 130:22 

Body of Flesh and Blood - A mortal body.  Matthew 16:17, 1 Cor 15:50, Mosiah 7:27 

Translated being - A changed body, sanctified in the flesh. 3 Ne 28:36-40 

Spirit of Just Men Made Perfect - A personage of spirit whom passed thru mortality but died and is awaiting the resurrection.  D&C 129:3,6-7 

Body of Flesh and Bone - An immortal body.  Luke 24:39 

Spiritual Body - An immortal body that is quickened with spirit instead of blood. 1 Cor 15:44-45, D&C 88:27, Alma 11:45 

Spirit Body - this term is not found within the scriptures.  There is an entry found in the Topical Guide but none of the citations actually use the term.  Mormon Doctrine has an entry titled Spirit bodies wherein McConkie defines the term as follows: 

Quote

SPIRIT BODIES - See Pre-existence, Spirit Birth, Spirit Children, Spiritual Bodies, Spirit World.  Our spirit bodies had their beginning in pre-existence when we were born as the spirit children of God our Father.  Through that birth process spirit element was organized into intelligent entities.  The bodies so created have all the parts of mortal bodies. The Brother of Jared saw Christ’s spirit finger and then his whole spirit body.  “I am Jesus Christ,” that glorious Personage said. “This body, which ye now behold is the body of my spirit; … and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh.” (Ether 3:14-17) 

I find McConkie’s definition of spirit body frankly irritating.  It is a very confusing term.  The term spiritual body is also vague, but it is easy to recognize that the scriptures define it succinctly (as an immortal body of flesh and bone).  It seems to me that McConkie had read Ether chapter 3, noticed something that he did not like, and then created a new term out of whole cloth to bolster his interpretation.   As I read the chapter I came to a completely different conclusion.   And so did Moroni, I might add, See Ether 3:17-20...

I recognize that McConkie was an apostle.  But I take the inspired words and first hand recollection of the brother of Jared, Moroni, and Joseph Smith's translation over McConkie's interpretation.

Edited January 15, 2019 by mikbone

[wenglund]

2 hours ago, mikbone said:

In order to have a meaningful discussion about a corporeal body we must first define and agree upon the words that we use.  Although most of the terms that we use to describe bodies are precise, others are vague or commonly misinterpreted.  One term I particularly dislike is Spirit body.   

The definitive verse is found in D&C 130:22 – The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us. 

Body - The physical tabernacle of flesh.  

Personage of Spirit - A spirit without tabernacle of flesh which has the appearance of a man.  1 Ne 11:11, D&C 130:22 

Body of Flesh and Blood - A mortal body.  Matthew 16:17, 1 Cor 15:50, Mosiah 7:27 

Translated being - A changed body, sanctified in the flesh. 3 Ne 28:36-40 

Spirit of Just Men Made Perfect - A personage of spirit whom passed thru mortality but died and is awaiting the resurrection.  D&C 129:3,6-7 

Body of Flesh and Bone - An immortal body.  Luke 24:39 

Spiritual Body - An immortal body that is quickened with spirit instead of blood.173  1 Cor 15:44-45, D&C 88:27, Alma 11:45 

Spirit Body - this term is not found within the scriptures.  There is an entry found in the Topical Guide but none of the citations actually use the term.  Mormon Doctrine has an entry titled Spirit bodies wherein McConkie defines the term as follows: 

I find McConkie’s definition of spirit body frankly irritating.  It is a very confusing term.  The term spiritual body is also vague, but it is easy to recognize that the scriptures define it succinctly (as an immortal body of flesh and bone).  It seems to me that McConkie had read Ether chapter 3, noticed something that he did not like, and then created a new term out of whole cloth to bolster his interpretation.   As I read the chapter I come to a completely different conclusion.   And so did Moroni, I might add, See Ether 3:17-20...

I recognize that McConkie was an apostle.  But I take the inspired words and first hand recollection of the brother of Jared, Moroni, and Joseph Smith's translation over McConkie's interpretation.

If you had clicked on the scriptural link in my last post, you would have read, "Behold, the body which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit. .", making it another "definitive scripture." 

So, while the term "spirit body" doesn't exactly appear in scripture, the term "body of my spirit" does appear at least twice. Sixes vs half a dozen. Like it or not, it is essentially the same. 

Even the term "spirit personage" is unavoidably suggestive of form and shape and size. and thus a body, as is also the term hosts of heaven. 

Are you under the Protestant impression that premarital spirit personages have no form or shape, but are ethereal essences that when they appear in angelic form or theophanies to mortals (either in the case of Jehovah or Gabriel or various other  angels who have appeared since the dawn of man), they mysteriously and temporarily take on a body?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[zil]

13 minutes ago, wenglund said:

If you had clicked on the scriptural link in my last post, you would have read, "Behold, the body which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit. .", making it another "definitive scripture." 

So, while the term "spirit body" doesn't exactly appear in scripture, the term "body of my spirit" does appear at least twice. Sixes vs half a dozen. Like it or not, it is essentially the same. 

Even the term "spirit personage" is unavoidably suggestive of form and shape and size. and thus a body, as is also the term hosts of heaven. 

Are you under the Protestant impression that premarital spirit personages have no form or shape, but are ethereal essences that when they appear in angelic form or theophanies to mortals (either in the case of Jehovah or Gabriel or various other  angels who have appeared since the dawn of man), they mysteriously and temporarily take on a body?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Quote

D&C 77:2 ...that which is spiritual being in the likeness of that which is temporal; and that which is temporal in the likeness of that which is spiritual; the spirit of man in the likeness of his person, as also the spirit of the beast, and every other creature which God has created.

Seems pretty clear to me.  One's temporal / physical body looks like one's spirit (body) and vice versa.

[mikbone]

23 minutes ago, wenglund said:

If you had clicked on the scriptural link in my last post, you would have read, "Behold, the body which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit. .", making it another "definitive scripture." 

So, while the term "spirit body" doesn't exactly appear in scripture, the term "body of my spirit" does appear at least twice. Sixes vs half a dozen. Like it or not, it is essentially the same. 

Even the term "spirit personage" is unavoidably suggestive of form and shape and size. and thus a body, as is also the term hosts of heaven. 

Are you under the Protestant impression that premarital spirit personages have no form or shape, but are ethereal essences that when they appear in angelic form or theophanies to mortals (either in the case of Jehovah or Gabriel or various other  angels who have appeared since the dawn of man), they mysteriously and temporarily take on a body?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I know that link well.  I'm a bit of an expert on Ether chapter 3.  I am not under the Protestant impression.  

"Body of my spirit" is an ambiguous phrase.  It is so confusing that Moroni had to add editorial commentary to Ether 3.  

The Lord at times uses ambiguous phrases by design.  I believe that this is one of those accounts.  

How do you like the following commentary?
 

Quote

Question: "There are several references testifying to the fact that the Lord appeared to ancient prophets before the flood, yet we read in the Book of Mormon, Ether 3:6-16, that the Lord had never shown himself to man prior to the days of the Brother of Jared. What explanation can be offered to clarify this apparent contradiction?" 
 

Elder Smith gave the following response: 
 

Answer: There is no contradiction....It is true that the Savior appeared to the prophets before the flood, but it is evident that he did not reveal himself in the fulness as he did to the Brother of Jared. Talking "face to face," as stated in this revelation, does not mean that the Lord did not appear in a cloud; or, that his body was partially hidden from the view of the prophet. All of this could occur and yet the Lord still be partially, if not completely, hidden from the prophet's view. The great difference rests in this, which the conversation of the Lord with the Brother of Jared clearly indicates: The Savior was conversing with the Brother of Jared in person, yes, evidently face to face, yet the Lord was hidden by a veil. The Brother of Jared knew that the Lord was there, but evidently he did not understand that the Lord had a body apparently of flesh and bones. Through his great faith he was able to see the finger of the Lord when the Lord touched the stones. So astonished did the prophet become that he fell to the earth in fright, fearing that the Lord might strike him. Receiving the assurance that all was well the following conversation occurred: 
 

And the Lord said unto him: Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me flesh and blood; and never has man come before me with such exceeding faith as thou hast; for were it not so ye could not have seen my finger. Sawest thou more than this?

And he answered: Nay; Lord, show thyself unto me.

And the Lord said unto him: Believest thou the words which I shall speak?

And he answered: Yea, Lord, I know that thou speakest the truth, for thou art a God of truth, and canst not lie.[Ether 3:9-12] 
 

Then the Lord revealed to him his entire body, and then he said: 
 

And never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man believed in me as thou hast. Seest thou that ye are created after mine own image? Yea, even all men were created in the beginning after mine own image.

Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh.[Ether 3:15-16] 
 

So the Savior showed to the Brother of Jared his entire body just as it would appear when he dwelt among men in the flesh.

Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions (vols. 1-4., Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1957-1963), Vol.2, p.123.

I have written a personal commentary of Ether 3.  If you will read it, while studying Ether 3, I will send it to you in a personal message.  

Or just study the chapter on your own.  There is enough there to keep a student of the scriptures captivated for quite some time.  I have spent many hours studying its content.

If your intention is to convince me of McConkie's interpretation, you will be greatly disappointed.  

[wenglund]

4 hours ago, mikbone said:

I know that link well.  I'm a bit of an expert on Ether chapter 3.  I am not under the Protestant impression.  

How does it differ?

And, out of curiosity, do you believe the post-mortal spirits personages. like the pre-mortal spirit personages, are bodyless--i.e. without form or shape or size and dimension?

Quote

"Body of my spirit" is an ambiguous phrase.  It is so confusing that Moroni had to add editorial commentary to Ether 3.  

The Lord at times uses ambiguous phrases by design.  I believe that this is one of those accounts.  

I suppose that "expert" is in the eye of the beholder. Granted, the passage is somewhat ambiguous and can be taken several ways. And, I agree this was likely intentional, though I would submit that the ambiguity and multiple ways of interpreting  actually constitute layers of meaning. One layer is the one you quoted from Elder Smith, and another is the one I suggested--which is consistent with a variety of other scriptures as well as statements from special witnesses to Christ.

What the passage doesn't support is a belief that premortal spirits are without form or size or dimension--i.e. without a body.

Quote

How do you like the following commentary?

As intimated above, I agree with that commentary.

Quote

I have written a personal commentary of Ether 3.  If you will read it, while studying Ether 3, I will send it to you in a personal message.  

Or just study the chapter on your own.  There is enough there to keep a student of the scriptures captivated for quite some time.  I have spent many hours studying its content.

I have and will continue to study that chapter., though I will pass, for the time being, on your commentary, that is until I see evidence that your personal interpretations are superior to certain special witnesses of Christ whom you reject.

Quote

If your intention is to convince me of McConkie's interpretation, you will be greatly disappointed.  

My only intention is to provide evidence that your deference to personal interpretation over that of chosen leaders of the Church may be misplaced,if not stepping into the realm of harmful pride. But, there too I may be greatly disappointed in how the evidence may be received.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited January 15, 2019 by wenglund

[mikbone]

47 minutes ago, wenglund said:

What the passage doesn't support is a belief that premortal spirits are without form or size or dimension--i.e. without a body.

I never made this claim.  Am I’m unsure where you came to this conclusion???

I don’t know what an ‘intelligence’ is.  I have no idea if an intelligence has a form.

Spirit children of God are personages of spirit.  They have the form of a man or a woman depending on their gender.  But they do not have physical bodies. Their form is composed of a finer substance.  

Do pre-embodied spirits have anatomy corresponding to the form of a mortal body - Yes.

47 minutes ago, wenglund said:

And, out of curiosity, do you believe the post-mortal spirits personages. like the pre-mortal spirit personages, are bodyless--i.e. without form or shape or size and dimension?

Nope.

You perceive pride because I prefer to stick to the original document over commentary? 

We just reviewed 2 different sources of commentary.  One soruce describes Jehovah as a ‘spirit body’ i.e. a personage of spirit.  The other source describes what appears to be a body of flesh and bone. i.e. an immortal body.

Moroni in Ether 3:18 states “ And he ministered unto him even as he ministered unto the Nephites”

3 Ne 11 explains how Jesus ministered unto the Nephites.

Edited January 15, 2019 by mikbone

[wenglund]

5 hours ago, zil said:

Seems pretty clear to me.  One's temporal / physical body looks like one's spirit (body) and vice versa.

Add to the passage you quoted, the scriptural accounts of the pre-mortal Councils in Heaven, such as in Abraham 3:22-28, where there are hands pointing and spirits standing, which is highly suggestive of body parts. These echo passages where angels are standing, sitting, hands, stretched forth,  talking,  touching, etc. (see HERE) 

Even more so is the passage where pre-mortal spirits in the Heavenly Council, "went down" and formed man in their images and likeness, and in the image and likeness of God created they them, male and female. (Abr. 4:26-28)

And, this is just the beginning.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

22 minutes ago, mikbone said:

I never made this claim.  Am I’m unsure where you came to this conclusion???

I don’t know what an ‘intelligence’ is.  I have no idea if an intelligence has a form.

Spirit children of God are personages of spirit.  They have the form of a man or a woman depending on their gender.  But they do not have physical bodies. Their form is composed of a finer substance.  

Do pre-embodied spirits have anatomy corresponding to the form of a mortal body - Yes.

In other words, it is a bodily form.

Rightly said another way, the form is a non-physical body composed of "a finer substance."

I think what is happening here is semantics. You seem to be using the term "body" in the seemingly overly restricted sense of just physical (immortal or resurrected), whereas I am using the term in a broader sense to included bodily forms. And, I trust that the church leaders you seem to disagree with are using the term "spirit body" in the the broader sense as well.

So, it isn't that you necessarily disagree conceptually,. You are just getting hung up on the terminology. Correct?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

 

Edited January 15, 2019 by wenglund

[mikbone]

My point is that some comentaries claim that Mahonri sees Jehovah’s spirit.

 

Whereas the text is actually describing a body of flesh and bone.

[wenglund]

10 minutes ago, mikbone said:

My point is that some comentaries claim that Mahonri sees Jehovah’s spirit.

Your point has gone well beyond that, but ...

10 minutes ago, mikbone said:

Whereas the text is actually describing a body of flesh and bone.

Actually, the word "bone" does not appear in that chapter. The text describes the finger of Christ  as "like flesh and blood" (emphasis mine).

The text also  tells us that Mahonri assumes that the finger is flesh and blood, though Jehovah corrects him by explaining that what Mahonri actually sees  is that Jehovah shall (future tense) take upon him flesh and blood. In other words, Mahonri has discovered that the finger of pre-mortal spirits are not all that different in form and shape, etc. from the finger of mortals.

When Christ later showed Mahonri his whole body, he describes it as "the body of my spirit," which appeared "to be in the spirit." and, as Moroni clarified, "in the likeness of the same body even as he showed himself unto the Nephites"--i.e. Christ's resurrected body. 

Thus we learn that while they are not exactly the same, the pre-mortal spirit bodies (as I use the term) are like mortal bodies and resurrected bodies.

However, as you said, the passage is ambiguous. The fact that what Mahonri saw was "in the spirit," makes possible, if not plausible, that he saw not only the spirit body (as I use the term) of Jehovah, but his mortal body and resurrected body, meaning that both you and the commentators may be correct. Visions can happen that way given that the temporal is peering into the eternal, and the finite  is brought into contact with the  past and present and future as if all were present. Such is how it is with the Father, and such may also be the case for those brought back into His and His Son's presence.

Either way, this chapter may rightly be interpreted as affirming,  and does not negate, what church leaders have said.about the nature of pre-mortal spirits, your "expertise" notwithstanding.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[mikbone]

4 hours ago, wenglund said:

actually, the word "bone" does not appear in that chapter. The text describes the finger of Christ  as "like flesh and blood" (emphasis mine).

The word bone does appear in the commentary provided by Joseph Fielding Smith as written in Answers to Gospel Questions.

Thank you for noticing that Mahonri is allowed to assume something that is incorrect.  I believe that this is a key part to understanding the text.

Yes, the term likeness is tantamount.  Did you consider the likelihood that the amount of information disclosed before and after the ordinance would be significantly different?

And why is this presentation as discussed in verse 15 singilarly different than any previous manifestation - Including the men Adam and Enoch?

Mahonri never saw a mortal body.  And there is indication that Mahonri did more than just see the “body of my spirit” in the later half of the text.

The phrase “in the spirit” as written in verse 17 is curious as well.  Because in this presentation, unlike the event that occurs in 1 Nephi 11 wherin Nephi was “caught away in the Spirit of the Lord, yea, into an exceedingly high mountain”, Mahonri actually climbed mt Shelem and was there in the flesh.