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GaleG

The 12 Apostles of the Lamb

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Hello,
 
Would you help me understand these verses.  
 
The 12 Apostles are mentioned in several places. 1 Nephi 11:34-36; 12:9; 13:24,26,39-41;  
and 14:20,24-25,27
 
Who are the 12 apostles of the Lamb which Jesus chose in Israel?
 
Another reference to the 12 is in Mormon 3:19.  "And I write also unto the remnant of  
this people, who shall also be judged by the twelve whom Jesus chose in this land; and  
they shall be judged by the other twelve whom Jesus chose in the land of Jerusalem".
 
Does this mean the current 15 LDS apostles won't be judging anyone?
 
Thank you,  
 
Gale

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2 minutes ago, GaleG said:

Who are the 12 apostles of the Lamb which Jesus chose in Israel?

Simon Peter, James, John, Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James (the lesser), Judas, Simon Zelotes, and Judas Iscariot.

5 minutes ago, GaleG said:

Does this mean the current 15 LDS apostles won't be judging anyone?

No.

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I believe it means that the house of Israel (i.e. the remnant of the tribe of Joseph, i.e. descendants of Lehi) will be judged by the 12 apostles that Jesus chose in Israel.   Now, does that mean the original 12 men (because Judas would be difficult).  I think rather it means the apostles of that dispensation, whoever they may be.  But Peter, James and John would be the top picks I would assume.

 

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On 4/16/2019 at 6:11 PM, GaleG said:

Who are the 12 apostles of the Lamb which Jesus chose in Israel?

Gale, 

Perhaps the "12 disciples" is a more common phrase (as opposed to 12 apostles) for the traditional Christian. 

There is, of course, the question of Judas.  He was considered fallen.  So, Matthew would probably be his replacement.  However, as a matter of personal interpretation, I don't believe that these specific 12 are to be taken literally.  It is the idea of the organization of the Church.  There was an organization of the Church in Jerusalem, and one in the Americas.

As far as who is judging, there are differing schools of thought on that.

  • We know that Jesus, himself, is the judge of all mankind.
  • We have scriptures (such as those you quoted) which state that many will be judged by the apostles or various ecclesiastical authorities.

The first line, I hope you know and understand.  Jesus is our judge.

The second line (about apostles judging us) needs some explanation.  Mankind is judged according to the light and knowledge we are given.  Each individual will only be held accountable for doing the best they could with what they had.  Therefore, if the leaders only taught the people of the land (and society they are in) a certain level of righteousness, then the people will be judged by that standard.

So, while Jesus does the literal judging, one of the considerations He makes is how we were taught by the leaders of the Church.

This isn't absolute, nor is it a get-out-of-jail free card for many sins.  But this is the overall feeling of what those scriptures mean. For one thing, people are not judged by "whatever belief system they have."  They are judged by what light and knowledge God has given the world and how effective the Church was in spreading that light and knowledge.

By the very fact you are on this board says that you have had exposure to the true principles of the Gospel. You're also reading the Book of Mormon.  As you accept and live according to that knowledge, you will be blessed.  If you reject that knowledge and choose a different path, you will be judged by that rejection.

Edited by Mores

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On 4/16/2019 at 7:17 PM, Vort said:

Does this mean the current 15 LDS apostles won't be judging anyone?

No.

Thank you Vort, Happy Easter.

Is there a reference that the 15 LDS apostles will be judging people groups?

Gale

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On 4/16/2019 at 4:19 PM, bytebear said:

I believe it means that the house of Israel (i.e. the remnant of the tribe of Joseph, i.e. descendants of Lehi) will be judged by the 12 apostles that Jesus chose in Israel.   Now, does that mean the original 12 men (because Judas would be difficult).  I think rather it means the apostles of that dispensation, whoever they may be.  But Peter, James and John would be the top picks I would assume.

 

D&C 7:7 And I will make thee (Peter) to minister for him (John) and for thy brother James; and unto you three I will give this power and the keys of this ministry until I come.

I think it's extremely interesting that one of the original twelve was called perdition by Jesus:

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

... and one of the 12 tribes disappears 

Dan is missing from Revelation 7 and is replaced by Manasseh. Joseph, rather than Ephraim, is named in Revelation 7, but I think Ephraim is a safe assumption.

I believe the symbol here ties to how one becomes a son of perdition by sinning against greater light and knowledge. In fact, Judas may represent Lucifer's fall, as he was an angel in authority who fell and I believe he was from this same spiritual class or order. 

Circling back to the OP, there's absolutely a heavenly hierarchy among the apostles / disciples and Peter, James, and John are at the head of that hierarchy. There is likely a chief apostle over each tribe. Perhaps the apostles of the Lamb judge the people born during their day as bytebear suggested - in fact I remember reading that somewhere. But there will be a clear hierarchy imho.

Edited by Alaris

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On 5/8/2019 at 8:51 PM, Alaris said:

D&C 7:7 And I will make thee (Peter) to minister for him (John) and for thy brother James; and unto you three I will give this power and the keys of this ministry until I come.

Does verse 6 show Jesus giving a greater commendation to John for desiring to undertake a
greater work than Peter?

Thank you,

Gale

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27 minutes ago, GaleG said:

Does verse 6 show Jesus giving a greater commendation to John for desiring to undertake a
greater work than Peter?

Thank you,

Gale

D&C 7:4 And for this cause the Lord said unto Peter: If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? For he desired of me that he might bring souls unto me, but thou desiredst that thou mightest speedily come unto me in my kingdom.
  5 I say unto thee, Peter, this was a good desire; but my beloved has desired that he might do more, or a greater work yet among men than what he has before done.
  6 Yea, he has undertaken a greater work; therefore I will make him as flaming fire and a ministering angel; he shall minister for those who shall be heirs of salvation who dwell on the earth.
  7 And I will make thee to minister for him and for thy brother James; and unto you three I will give this power and the keys of this ministry until I come.
  8 Verily I say unto you, ye shall both have according to your desires, for ye both joy in that which ye have desired.
 
Hrm ... I don't think so. Verse 5 shows that the "Greater work" is in comparison only to what John has done before. I don't think Peter and John are being compared much at all except for Jesus saying, "Hey what's it to you?"
 
To me verse 7 is the hidden pearl. Peter is to minister to both John and James - I believe this is a clue as to why James and John are tagging along in the temple endowment.

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On 4/21/2019 at 8:52 AM, GaleG said:

Is there a reference that the 15 LDS apostles will be judging people groups?

I've been giving this some thought and I have polished off the idea I was trying to explain earlier.

The "12 apostles" constantly change.  There were those among the Jews. There were those among the Nephites.  There are those among our people in the Latter-days.  But each set of those apostles were replaced (the great apostasy excepted).  So, I have difficulty believing that the statement about the 12 apostles (or even the 15 apostles) is supposed to be literal.

If it is not literal, then what do the apostles represent?

They represent the best interpretation and understanding that man has about God's will at the time that we are alive.  We are all judged by the best knowledge available to A) The world at large and B) Each of us as individuals.

There is a bit of a blend between the two because the fact that the world as a whole has a level of Celestial Knowledge means that there is an outpouring of the Spirit.  And we as individuals are accountable for the level of heed and diligence we give to that outpouring.

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On 5/29/2019 at 9:09 AM, Mores said:

So, I have difficulty believing that the statement about the 12 apostles (or even the 15 apostles) is supposed to be literal.

I found several references on the church website that mention 15 Apostles.

https://www.lds.org/church/leaders/first-presidency?lang=eng
https://www.lds.org/prophets-and-apostles/unto-all-the-world/the-lord-calls-his-prophets?lang=eng
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2014/10/sustaining-the-prophets?lang=eng
https://www.lds.org/blog/modern-apostles-bear-witness-of-jesus-christ

I couldn't find any reference to 15 apostles in the church of the New Testament or Nephite/Lamanite
apostles in the Book of Mormon.

Thank you,

Gale

 

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49 minutes ago, GaleG said:

I found several references on the church website that mention 15 Apostles.

https://www.lds.org/church/leaders/first-presidency?lang=eng
https://www.lds.org/prophets-and-apostles/unto-all-the-world/the-lord-calls-his-prophets?lang=eng
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2014/10/sustaining-the-prophets?lang=eng
https://www.lds.org/blog/modern-apostles-bear-witness-of-jesus-christ

I couldn't find any reference to 15 apostles in the church of the New Testament or Nephite/Lamanite
apostles in the Book of Mormon.

Thank you,

Gale

 

The New Testament mentions a couple of “apostles” who weren’t numbered amongst the “twelve apostles”; Paul being the most prominent.  

These are not Sith Lords we’re talking about; there’s no eternally-fixed maximum number.  

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On 5/29/2019 at 7:09 AM, Mores said:

So, I have difficulty believing that the statement about the 12 apostles (or even the 15 apostles) is supposed to be literal.

I also think we may tend to misunderstand what's being talked about concerning "judged by".

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On 6/8/2019 at 2:21 PM, Just_A_Guy said:

These are not Sith Lords we’re talking about; there’s no eternally-fixed maximum number.

1 Nephi 11:34 says "And after he was slain I saw the multitudes of the earth, that they
were gathered together to fight against the apostles of the Lamb; for thus were the
twelve called by the angel of the Lord".

I am assuming verse 36 is referring to the past and the future.

"And it came to pass that I saw and bear record, that the great and spacious building
was the pride of the world; and it fell, and the fall thereof was exceedingly great. And
the angel of the Lord spake unto me again, saying: Thus shall be the destruction of
all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, that shall fight against the twelve apostles
of the Lamb".

Who are these 12?

Thank you,

Gale

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8 hours ago, GaleG said:

Who are these 12?

This has been answered before.  But there was a lot, so I'll try to summarize.

Explanation 1: There were specifically 12 named in the New Testament.  I believe you know who they are, so I'll forbear repeating them here.

Explanation 2: They symbolically represent the "organization" of God's Kingdom on earth, The Church of Jesus Christ (in New Testament times) and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (in modern times).

COMBINE THE TWO TOGETHER:

The vision that Nephi saw was not ONLY a single point in time.  It was a theme that is repeated throughout history.  The fall of New Testament times is a type and shadow of the fall to come during the Apocalypse.  Thus the vision was/is a dual metaphor.

MEANING:

Whenever the pride of the world fights against God's Church (and Kingdom) there will be a great fall.

-- If you find that your question is still not being answered, can you explain what part you're having difficulty with?  Or perhaps say what you were thinking of regarding the 12, and we'll explain what does or does not fit.

I'm assuming you've heard of the 12 that hung around Jesus, right?  So, what is it you're having trouble with?

Edited by Mores

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1 hour ago, GaleG said:

1 Nephi 11:34 says "And after he was slain I saw the multitudes of the earth, that they
were gathered together to fight against the apostles of the Lamb; for thus were the
twelve called by the angel of the Lord".

I am assuming verse 36 is referring to the past and the future.

"And it came to pass that I saw and bear record, that the great and spacious building
was the pride of the world; and it fell, and the fall thereof was exceedingly great. And
the angel of the Lord spake unto me again, saying: Thus shall be the destruction of
all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, that shall fight against the twelve apostles
of the Lamb".

Who are these 12?

Thank you,

Gale

As @Mores says, I’m inclined to take v 34 as referring to the historical twelve apostles named in the New Testament as constituting the primitive church’s governing council (without precluding the existence of additional apostles who were not a part of that historical group of twelve); and v 36 as a specific group of twelve apostles that constitutes the governing council of Christ’s Church in the latter-days/end times (without precluding the existence of additional apostles who are not a part of that modern/future group of twelve).  

As I said earlier, we know that there were additional apostles who weren’t numbered among the Twelve in NT times; so we don’t get our noses out of joint over the fact that we can actually name fifteen modern ordained apostles at this point in our history.  

Edited by Just_A_Guy

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