Why More?

mnn727 · September 22, 2007

Thanks M. Writing a paper on the subject just for the heck of it actually...

I would be interested in reading it when you are done, perhaps you could post it.

SeattleTruthSeeker · September 23, 2007

I'd rather not write a long winding post so I'll just say this and ask you to ponder on it:
If the Bible was perfect and explained everything and as such we didn't have a need for additional scriptures, why are there thousands of different churches based on the Bible? Shouldn't there only be just one (or very few) ?

I used this line of reasoning with a friend of mine the other day and he put it this way:

"Okay, I will agree with you on that. There are various different teachings and a variety of different churches. So, why are their many different "Mormon" Churches that are based on the same Prophet and Book - meaning Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon"? and then he listed several "Mormon" religious groups.

SLC Based Mormons

Community of Christ "formerly Reorganized church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints"

FLDS

The True Church of Jesus Christ of LDS.

He gave me a reference of about thirty different religious groups claiming the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith as their founding prophet seer and revelator. Each one declaring the other apostate.

The most popular one is Warren Jeff and FLDS being in the news regarding Polygamy and a young lady forced to marry her cousin...

I didn't know how to answer such a question and read the news articles and have to say that with such questions, it isn't any more of a vigilante prayer, but I know feel there seems to be things that I have to come to terms with and understand before I say "Yes, this is God's True Church" and honestly praying and seeking, reading both sides of certain issues and doctrines, doing more study and prayer and asking questions that seem to merely just gets passed off...

I am curious to know because either the Church is True or it is Not true... and that is where I seem to be at.

I don't know why God called Joseph Smith. Part of me believes it, part of me believes that there may not have been any calling of Joseph Smith as a prophet and when I go to prayer, when I read the Book of Mormon, I find I am still hungry and I find that I am not completely satisfied.

In fact, the other night, I prayed almost the whole night, crying, expressing my frustration sitting and listening and I feel nothing, I hear nothing and I turn to the scriptures and read and read and then pray, seeking God.

I am thinking that maybe God isn't listening to me or there is no God... I don't know....who to believe anymore.

Follower · September 23, 2007

It doesn't appear to me that I am the one limiting and questioning His power.

By claiming that people in this day and age need more than Jesus do you limit His power.

Paul said, "I can do all things through Christ who gives me strength." Jesus said, "Apart from Me you can do nothing." "I Am the Bread of Life." "I Am the Good Shepherd." "I am the way, the truth, and the life."

1 John 1:7 states, "The blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin."

This stands in contrast to what one of the Mormon leaders claims, "But under certain circumstances there are some serious sins for which the cleansing of Christ does not operate, and the law of God is that men must then have their own blood shed to atone for their sins" (Mormon Doctrine, p.92)

So, Mormonism would claim that the sacrifice of Jesus wasn't sufficient, and men must now shed their own blood to atone for their sins.

Also, Mormonism would claim that people aren't only saved by Jesus, but by the church as well.

Bruce McConkie states: "There is no salvation outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Mormon Doctrine, p.670).

Marion Romney (is he any relation to Mitt?) said, "This Church is the ensign on the mountain spoken of by the Old Testament prophets. It is the way, the truth, and the life" (Conference Report, April, 1961, pg. 119)

[There is] "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith" (Joseph Fielding Smith, in Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190)

"No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith" (Brigham Young, in Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p.289)

Joseph Fielding Smith said: "If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190)

BTW, I'm going to respond to your claims regarding the New Testament, Enoch, and Plagiarism. I'm doing some additional research on the subject and will reply soon.

avatar4321 · September 23, 2007

By claiming that people in this day and age need more than Jesus do you limit His power.
Paul said, "I can do all things through Christ who gives me strength." Jesus said, "Apart from Me you can do nothing." "I Am the Bread of Life." "I Am the Good Shepherd." "I am the way, the truth, and the life."
1 John 1:7 states, "The blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin."
This stands in contrast to what one of the Mormon leaders claims, "But under certain circumstances there are some serious sins for which the cleansing of Christ does not operate, and the law of God is that men must then have their own blood shed to atone for their sins" (Mormon Doctrine, p.92)
So, Mormonism would claim that the sacrifice of Jesus wasn't sufficient, and men must now shed their own blood to atone for their sins.
Also, Mormonism would claim that people aren't only saved by Jesus, but by the church as well.
Bruce McConkie states: "There is no salvation outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Mormon Doctrine, p.670).
Marion Romney (is he any relation to Mitt?) said, "This Church is the ensign on the mountain spoken of by the Old Testament prophets. It is the way, the truth, and the life" (Conference Report, April, 1961, pg. 119)
[There is] "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith" (Joseph Fielding Smith, in Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190)
"No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith" (Brigham Young, in Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p.289)
Joseph Fielding Smith said: "If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190)
BTW, I'm going to respond to your claims regarding the New Testament, Enoch, and Plagiarism. I'm doing some additional research on the subject and will reply soon.
Blood Atonement is not the doctrine of the Mormon Church, nor are the sources you are taking wholly out of context. Clean up your act, Follower. The LDS Church is the only one which embraces the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Embracing anything less is a rejection of the fulness Christ offers us.

Where to start.... How about with No one has claimed that anyone needs more than Jesus.

Quite the opposite. We need Him more. This is exactly why we need more revelations. Because we need Him constantly guiding us to Eternal Life.

We need His authority. We need His ordinances. We need His Blessings. His Church, everything we can get from Him.

You really should read the Book of Mormon sometime. Because you really look dumb trying to imply that we dont claim to need Jesus.

mnn727 · September 23, 2007

Follower

Let me give you some advice. Stop believing everything you are told about us(whether it be from a website, a book or a person) You are being misled.

The quotes you have been posting are:

1.) taken out of context

2.) some are from sources that have long been declared false by the Church, some have no backing in doctrine and may be ignored.

3.) ignores everything else the same speaker has said on the same subject,

4.)makes much use of elipses........ to remove material that explains what the person meant or to remove entire sentances, paragraphs and in 1 case I researched, 33 pages of material missing between the 2 parts of the ellipses.

I would recommend that you explore BOTH sides of Mormonism doing HONEST RESEARCH and then make up your own mind rather than believe what you hear -- at least if you are actually interested in TRUTH that would be the way to do it, anything else is just plain dishonest.

No Touch · September 23, 2007

From my understanding, the books of the Bible from Genesis to Revelation are sufficient to teach us all we need to know concerning "life and godliness." If this is true, why do Mormons see the need for additional Scriptures?

If I were to give you the shortest answer possible without reading any replies it would be this:

It is not true.

They are not sufficient, and I honestly believe someone has to condition you to believe that it is. Every book in the Bible was written at least 1800 years ago, in societies and cultures that faced different issues than we do today, and every attempt to suggest that the Bible can address every possible issue and problem is an attempt to ascribe supernatural powers to it that, in my opinion, border on the exact kind of idolatry it teaches against. To think that a book (yes, any book) can answer all your questions and solve all your problems, effectively meaning you do not need to seek out God is to allow this book to replace God. Now having given that some thought, I may decide to write further on this subject.

snipe123 · September 24, 2007

By claiming that people in this day and age need more than Jesus do you limit His power.
Paul said, "I can do all things through Christ who gives me strength." Jesus said, "Apart from Me you can do nothing." "I Am the Bread of Life." "I Am the Good Shepherd." "I am the way, the truth, and the life."
1 John 1:7 states, "The blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin."
This stands in contrast to what one of the Mormon leaders claims, "But under certain circumstances there are some serious sins for which the cleansing of Christ does not operate, and the law of God is that men must then have their own blood shed to atone for their sins" (Mormon Doctrine, p.92)
So, Mormonism would claim that the sacrifice of Jesus wasn't sufficient, and men must now shed their own blood to atone for their sins.
Also, Mormonism would claim that people aren't only saved by Jesus, but by the church as well.
Bruce McConkie states: "There is no salvation outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Mormon Doctrine, p.670).
Marion Romney (is he any relation to Mitt?) said, "This Church is the ensign on the mountain spoken of by the Old Testament prophets. It is the way, the truth, and the life" (Conference Report, April, 1961, pg. 119)
[There is] "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith" (Joseph Fielding Smith, in Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190)
"No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith" (Brigham Young, in Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p.289)
Joseph Fielding Smith said: "If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190)
BTW, I'm going to respond to your claims regarding the New Testament, Enoch, and Plagiarism. I'm doing some additional research on the subject and will reply soon.

Follower, you dissapoint me...You are following the pattern of most Anti-Mormon writers which is to start on one subject and when what your saying does not stick, you change the subject and run to the next one, all in the hopes of discrediting the church...For someone who has never read the Book of Mormon and who does not "...have the time ro study every religion under heaven..." you seem to posess a healthy library on the subject of Mormonism...Apparently you have:

1) The Journal of Discourses (Is that all 27 volumes, or just volume 7?)

2) The Doctrines of Salvation(I believe that's a 4 volume set)

3)Mormon Doctrine (Which was written before Bruce R. McKonkie was an apostle by the way...in other words it is not official doctrine.

4)Conference report from April 1961

What other books do you have on the subject? Hmmmmm, let me think really hard about this...

Would it be: THE GOD MAKERS? I have my own copy with notes in the margins, so if you want to refer me to a page or two...hahaha

I suppose the specific anti-mormon book you have does not matter since they all trade the same stock stories, misquoted sentences, quotes taken far out of their context, yellow journalism, and deception back and forth...Perhaps you do not realize that when you quote someone who is being quoted inside another persons writings you are supposed to quote YOUR source for the quote, not the writer who is quoting his source, or you should quote both...So you should be quoting Brigham Young from Journal of Discourses volume 7 p. 289 (for example) as cited in....INSERT ANTI-BOOK HERE. This is so that the people reading your post will know where your quote came from...unless you want us to believe you actually have the source material you quoted...

So your first statement about what "Mormon leaders" teach is not true...Bruce R. Mckonkie was not an Apostle at the time that he wrote (that such sins as murder are not atoned for by Christs blood) so he was not a "Mormon Leader". To my knowledge he never preached this idea from the pulpit when he did become a General Authority...Mormons are taught however that they do not have to accept the statements of ANYONE when what has been taught is not in compliance with The Holy Scriptures...The Book of Mormon tells of an entire group of people who were converted from the murderous ways who buried their swords in the earth as a token of leaving behind their wicked ways and would rather die themselves than take away the life of another...They were forgiven, and were among the most blessed people told about in The Book of Mormon.

Alma 23: 5-6

5 And thousands were brought to the knowledge of the Lord, yea, thousands were brought to believe in the traditions of the Nephites; and they were taught the records and prophecies which were handed down even to the present time.

6 And as sure as the Lord liveth, so sure as many as believed, or as many as were brought to the knowledge of the truth, through the preaching of Ammon and his brethren, according to the spirit of revelation and of prophecy, and the power of God working amiracles in them—yea, I say unto you, as the Lord liveth, as many of the Lamanites as believed in their preaching, and were converted unto the Lord, never did fall away.

Since you have The Book of Mormon, you might want to read the whole story...

Mormons teach that there is only one sin that cannot be forgiven in this life or the hereafter which is best stated here:

Matt. 12: 31-32

31 ¶ Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall cnot be forgiven unto men.

32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

(Jesus as quoted by Mathew, as recorded in The King James Bible...citing my source there...haha)

Those who suffer this fate are often refered to as the sons of perdition...it is generally felt that Judas Iscariot falls into this category, but who am I to judge...

"No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith" (Brigham Young, in Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p.289)

This doctrine is true, although this quote hardly does it justice and when given within the same paragraphs as the rest of your anti-book it leaves the reader with the impression that this is saying that Joseph Smith provides salvation and not Jesus...which is not even close to what Brigham Young was teaching...Anti-Mormons do a good job of attacking their interpretation (plus it's taken out of context)of what we believe, and not what we ACTUALLY BELIEVE...so if you read Brigham Youngs talk in context, and not within the false atmosphere created by the anti-book, Brigham is teaching exactly what the Savior taught here:

Matt. 19: 28

28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the generation when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

This is saying that the Apostles will sit in judgement with The Savior over those whom they were called upon to preach to...Converts to Christianity were adopted into the House of Israel by acceptence of Christs Blood, or were already part of one of those tribes (Of Jewish decent). Prophets and Apostles will sit in judgment over the age in which they were called is the principle being taught here by Jesus and Brigham Young. Judges give their consent, or condemnation do they not? This idea was taught and believed by the earliest Christians, and is believed by Mormons.

Taken in context, I do not have a problem with the following statement:

Joseph Fielding Smith said: "If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190)

Let me explain it this way:

"If [Paul] was verily a prophet [apostle], and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God"

Do you now have a problem with this statement? If you reject the testimony of Paul, then you do not accept his teachings regarding the blood of Jesus etc...which led you to Christ in the first place and which provides salvation...This is what is meant by that quote...If you reject Josephs claim(testimony) that he restored the Gospel and reject such teachings as baptism etc, then there are consequences if they are true...again, this is not saying that Joseph Smith provides salvation...it is his message, if believed and followed, that does...Just like Pauls message if believed and followed provided salvation to his hearers.

I cannot help but question your motives once again...Why are you on these forums? You did not respond to my invitation to share your testimony with us regarding the Bible or Jesus, instead you switched to an entirely different subject than the one you started with...Does this mean you found my last posted answer satisfactory and so your ready to move on to your next attack? You are doing your best to tear down what people believe and you are doing it by following the most questionable of methods...I can't blame you since your views of mormonism are seen throuth the prism of ant-mormon literature which you have actually been quoting, but what i wonder is if Mormonism is so evil, why is it that the men who write about it use tactics that are not honorable to tear it down? If it's false, all anti-writers have to do is state the truth plainly...They do not do that...They take things out of context, deliberately misquote things, make up stories outright, or they attack their interpretation of things and not what we actually believe...If you really want answers to your questions why not visit this site: www.fairlds.org

Look at some of the articles writen in response to the critics but also look at the critics themselves and the tactics they use and ask yourself if these are the tactics that God would use in tearing down a satanic church. God uses truth, not half-truth.

EDITED FOR GROSS SPELLING ERRORS...HAHA Microsoft word has crippled my spelling ability...so lazy...haha

Doctor Steuss · September 24, 2007

I agree! I often wondered if that was the reason for those words in Revelation - that people were actually attempting to change or add to scripture at the time. It makes you wonder how many of them succeeded.

One of my favorite examples of a text being altered is:

αμαθεστατε και κακε, αφες τον παλαιον, μη μεταποιει

(Fool and knave, can't you leave the old reading alone and not alter it!)

This is a complaint that one of the scribes wrote in the margin of Codex Vaticanus (by Hebrews 1:3). Another scribe had altered the text to read differently. Interestingly, the other scribe actually was correcting the text. So, the text was wrong, a scribe fixed it, another scribe changed it back to the incorrect reading, and then wrote an insult in the margin.

Groovy stuff.

Doctor Steuss · September 24, 2007

By claiming that people in this day and age need more than Jesus do you limit His power.
Paul said, "I can do all things through Christ who gives me strength." Jesus said, "Apart from Me you can do nothing." "I Am the Bread of Life." "I Am the Good Shepherd." "I am the way, the truth, and the life."
1 John 1:7 states, "The blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin."
This stands in contrast to what one of the Mormon leaders claims, "But under certain circumstances there are some serious sins for which the cleansing of Christ does not operate, and the law of God is that men must then have their own blood shed to atone for their sins" (Mormon Doctrine, p.92)
So, Mormonism would claim that the sacrifice of Jesus wasn't sufficient, and men must now shed their own blood to atone for their sins.
Also, Mormonism would claim that people aren't only saved by Jesus, but by the church as well.
Bruce McConkie states: "There is no salvation outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Mormon Doctrine, p.670).
Marion Romney (is he any relation to Mitt?) said, "This Church is the ensign on the mountain spoken of by the Old Testament prophets. It is the way, the truth, and the life" (Conference Report, April, 1961, pg. 119)
[There is] "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith" (Joseph Fielding Smith, in Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190)
"No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith" (Brigham Young, in Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p.289)
Joseph Fielding Smith said: "If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190)
BTW, I'm going to respond to your claims regarding the New Testament, Enoch, and Plagiarism. I'm doing some additional research on the subject and will reply soon.

Don’t bother responding. I see what your “research” entails. The fact that you edited out the Moderator warning from your post doesn’t exactly reflect well upon you either. I’m done with you.

Isaiah 29: 21

MorningStar · September 24, 2007

One of my favorite examples of a text being altered is:
αμαθεστατε και κακε, αφες τον παλαιον, μη μεταποιει
(Fool and knave, can't you leave the old reading alone and not alter it!)
This is a complaint that one of the scribes wrote in the margin of Codex Vaticanus (by Hebrews 1:3). Another scribe had altered the text to read differently. Interestingly, the other scribe actually was correcting the text. So, the text was wrong, a scribe fixed it, another scribe changed it back to the incorrect reading, and then wrote an insult in the margin.
Groovy stuff.

That's cool.

snipe123 · September 24, 2007

One of my favorite examples of a text being altered is:
αμαθεστατε και κακε, αφες τον παλαιον, μη μεταποιει
(Fool and knave, can't you leave the old reading alone and not alter it!)
This is a complaint that one of the scribes wrote in the margin of Codex Vaticanus (by Hebrews 1:3). Another scribe had altered the text to read differently. Interestingly, the other scribe actually was correcting the text. So, the text was wrong, a scribe fixed it, another scribe changed it back to the incorrect reading, and then wrote an insult in the margin.
Groovy stuff.

Follower,

Since you probably don't trust Mormons on this subject, there are a ton (literally) of books written by Non-LDS scholars on the subject of Biblical scripture being altered through the ages...The most recent one I read was published quite recently and I heard an interview with the author on National Public Radio with Terri Gross on her show "Fresh Air". The author talked about his painful realization that despite the claims of his evengelical divinity school where he received his degree, the Bible does contain alterations and insertions...causing the text and meaning to be different than that of the original writers...Here is a link to the book should you care to read it, but like I said, there are tons more like it...This happens to be an excellent read, particularly for someone who is new to this subject:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/006...mmaculate-books

The Book is called: Misquoting Jesus. The Story of Who Changed the Bible and Why?

I disagree with some of his conclusions, which is a mistrust of the Bible all-together, but the substance of what he says I find to be quite refreshing...

Here is another book I have and have actually read from a non-mormon source...as stated, there are many others:

http://www.amazon.com/Lost-Christianities-...1839987-8184602

This book is called:Lost Christianities: The Battles for Scripture and the Faiths We Never Knew

This discusses some of the beliefs of various sects of the earliest Christians which were swallowed up and stamped out by the "Imperial Church".

Hands down, the best "Mormon" authored book on this subject is actually a series of lectures given in the 50's, now in Book form by Hugh Nibley...They can be purchased in CD form or in book form and it they are simply brilliant lectures...Any serious examination of the Mormon claim that this church is a restoration of "The early Christian Church" cannot be complete without reading this book...Cannot say enough possitive things about it...

http://www.deseretbooks.com/store/search?s...nd+the+prophets

It is called: "The World and the Prophets" by Hugh Nibley

Used copies can also be found.

snipe123 · September 24, 2007

I used this line of reasoning with a friend of mine the other day and he put it this way:
"Okay, I will agree with you on that. There are various different teachings and a variety of different churches. So, why are their many different "Mormon" Churches that are based on the same Prophet and Book - meaning Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon"? and then he listed several "Mormon" religious groups.
SLC Based Mormons
Community of Christ "formerly Reorganized church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints"
FLDS
The True Church of Jesus Christ of LDS.
He gave me a reference of about thirty different religious groups claiming the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith as their founding prophet seer and revelator. Each one declaring the other apostate.
The most popular one is Warren Jeff and FLDS being in the news regarding Polygamy and a young lady forced to marry her cousin...
I didn't know how to answer such a question and read the news articles and have to say that with such questions, it isn't any more of a vigilante prayer, but I know feel there seems to be things that I have to come to terms with and understand before I say "Yes, this is God's True Church" and honestly praying and seeking, reading both sides of certain issues and doctrines, doing more study and prayer and asking questions that seem to merely just gets passed off...
I am curious to know because either the Church is True or it is Not true... and that is where I seem to be at.
I don't know why God called Joseph Smith. Part of me believes it, part of me believes that there may not have been any calling of Joseph Smith as a prophet and when I go to prayer, when I read the Book of Mormon, I find I am still hungry and I find that I am not completely satisfied.
In fact, the other night, I prayed almost the whole night, crying, expressing my frustration sitting and listening and I feel nothing, I hear nothing and I turn to the scriptures and read and read and then pray, seeking God.
I am thinking that maybe God isn't listening to me or there is no God... I don't know....who to believe anymore.

Hey Seattle,

So I am currently writing something about Faith in response to another writers questions on the forums here, so watch for it as I think it may help you...as to your questions about why there are so many split offs from Mormonism, let me answer it this way...

In every age, including this one, when the Truth is restored, it is pure...Men over time corrupt the message and refuse to follow the prophets as the course of the church roles forward...Joseph Smith restored the church of God, and over time men have departed from the faith and have set up their own...This does not invalidate the restoration or the need for it, but simply exposes, and reveals the attributes of bad men...

I cut and pasted parts from two posts that I have written earlier on another forum to help a couple people with concerns that they had...I did this so that I would not have to write it all over again...haha...One of the people had read a lot of anti-mormon literature, so you may not find that part applicable, but I think a lot of what I said about faith and prayer might help you with your questions. When I finish the post about faith, I'll let you know, because I think it might help you...

Post#1

"1)Seek words of wisdom by study and by faith...you know that scripture of course but how can it be aplied practically. In short, you can not have faith and at the same time have doubt...That's all fine and dandy but that's really tough to do when you find yourself in the predicament that you are in...I remember once on my mission running across a teaching by one of our church leaders that I just knew was a bunch of crap!...Couple days went by and it festered and I talked about it a lot with other missionaries who tried to help me, and I was saying that I don't care if a prophet said it, it's crap! Essentially what I was really saying is: "If I don't understand it, it must be false!" A kind sister missionary(gotta love the sisters) said : "Elder, where is your faith? How will you ever get an answer if you have already decided it's false?" I knew she was right in that moment and it was then that I began to develop what I fondly refer to as "The jar it and shelf it priciple." Here it is in a nutshell:

I have a question in regards to the church that I cannot find an immediate answer to and I am troubled by it. I take that question before The Lord and say something like this: "Lord, I have question "X" and I do not understand it...I believe that you can show me the answer but I recognize that in asking the question you may not wish to answer it now or ever, for whatever reason. I trust you to know what is best. I am willing to exercise my faith and search dilligently for the answer as I study and pray and I ask that you guide me in my studies...I ask that in the meantime, you speak peace to my soul concerning the matter when you feel that I have exerted enough effort. If the answer is to be made known, great! If it isn't, please give me peace so it does not cause doubt any longer."

So I then take this doubt and stick it in jar and put it on a shelf (not literally). The question is there, I am not ignoring it...I see it there from time to time and take it down to examine it (in my mind). It has not been dismissed and I am not in denial...I am simply partitioning it in a way...Putting it up there, acknowledging the question and exercising faith that some day, that question will be answered and my doubt will be discarded.

By the way, that question I had beat myself up over on my mission was answered the very next day, rather forcefully as I read the scriptures with a prayer of faith...that taught me a very valuable lesson...not saying you will get your answers the very next day, I think missionaries get some special privilages when it comes to learning(haha) but I do believe you can have peace for these things if you apply this principle..."ye receive no witness until AFTER the trial of your faith..." When you are aided in your studies and receive that witness by The Spirit, it will do more for you than any answer provided by any man...Arguments and evidence based on intellect can convince you, until someone comes along with a better argument. Study aided by the Spirit is totally different.

2) You have probably read enough anti-literature that it is probably time to lay it aside and repair the damage...while it is true that many of your concerns are not related to anti, I am certain that many of them are related to something you have read. Hopefully you recognize the spirit and atmosphere that is created as you have read this literature...makes you feel kind of heavy and dark...if you doubt this, try listening to uplifting music, or read the scriptures for awhile until you feel The Spirit, and then pick up some anti-literature and see how quickly that darkness sets in...If this is not The Lords church, then God would inspire men to expose it with pure truth...While the claim of accuracy, truth and love is made by many anti-mormons, I have yet to read a single anti-book that does not employ deceptive tactics in some way...If you can get ahold of Hugh Nibleys talk "How to Write an Anti-Mormon Book" you will see that the tactics of the earliest anti-writers have continued to the present and all of them present some truth mixed with lots of Yellow-journalism, half truths, misquoted sentences and outright fabrications or recycling of previous fabrications...not to say they never have a valid criticism, but again, how can the Lord inspire such tactics to expose "THE LIES OF MORMONISM". God uses truth, never lies to combat The Devil...You might also read what Mormon scholars have said in response to some of your questions...Kinderhook and Salamander letter is a good example(total forgery by the way...)

3)Focus on living the Gospel...Since I became active (after a three year vacation in the great and spacius building... ) again in April, I have been following the advice I heard recently from a dear friend that I served a mission with 15 years ago. He never goes to church expecting to be fed, or to feel the spirit...He goes to worship, renew his covenants and FEED OTHERS...He prays that when he enters the church, or anywhere for that matter, that he will have an uplifting word for someone, or an opportunity to minister or benefit someone in some way...As a result he always feels the Spirit in abundance, and he is always fed, and he always has a chance to serve in some way...He says(and I believe him) that he has not had a bad Sunday in 15 years...I have not had a bad Sunday since April, and plan to keep this idea with me for the rest of my life. My friend is the most Spirit filled man I know, and I always feel blessed to have spoken to him. He is a brick layer in Navoo, and has never been to college and yet he is the most learned man in the scriptures I have ever met personally...but he is not only learned...he lives it...and it is by study and faith that he has become the blessing that he is...it is in "the living", that we gain our testimonies...

4)Reflect upon the possitive things you have experienced and felt as you have served in the Church. You have probably had the opportunity to give blessings using your priesthood where the thoughts given were not your own...you have had miracles in your life...These things were not deceptions of the Devil then, and they certainly cannot be now...The Church can't be half true...The Bof M can't have some truth and some stuff that's made up...It's either a revealed religion or it isn't.

As a final thought...On the night of Joseph Smiths death, things were rather gloomy, so one of his companions (I forget which) sang "A Poor Wayfairing Man of Grief"...When he finished, Joseph asked him to sing it again, to which the brother replied: "Oh Joseph, I really don't feel like singing right now". To which Joseph replied: "Commence, you'll get the spirit of it!"

If I may echo those words to you...Dig deep and access your hearts desire which is to believe in this church and then commence in faith. God is with you and will answer you in his own time and in his own way.Know that there are others who have traveled this difficult road before you, and at the journeys end, know that the fruit is sweet...

I hope this helped in some small way...

Post #2

For now, I would like to share a few things...I read this book after basically being inactive for three years: http://deseretbook.com/store/product?sku=4961117

It is very small and takes about 45 minutes to read it, but it completely changed my life and caused me to finally alter course and return to the church...Seems ridiculous that such a small book with a common enough title could do that...The title sounds all mushy gooshy and I used to avoid such things, but trust me, you will learn some very important lessons...I credit the book with the following concepts I want to share with you in the hopes that you might find them helpful:

So you may remember how the evening was divided up in New Testament times into 4 hours, or “watches” as they were called…So the point that this little book was trying to make sort of relates to that…the book says that God is a “Fourth Watch” God and that we tend to see and want him to be a “First Watch” God…Perhaps the following account from the New Testament can illustrate what is meant by that term. They are two accounts of the same story, but each account adds a significant detail that the other leaves out, so I copied them both so I can discuss them.

John Chapter 6

15 ¶ When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

16 And when even was now come, his disciples went down unto the sea,

17 And entered into a ship, and went over the sea toward Capernaum. And it was now dark, and Jesus was not come to them.

18 And the sea arose by reason of a great wind that blew.

19 So when they had rowed about five and twenty or thirty furlongs, they see Jesus walking on the sea, and drawing nigh unto the ship: and they were aafraid.

20 But he saith unto them, It is I; be not afraid.

21 Then they willingly received him into the ship: and immediately the ship was at the land whither they went.

So everyone knows this story and we always focus on the part about Jesus walking on water, and Peter going out on the water to meet him and he loses faith etc…but what is really significant about this story is what it reveals about the character of God. So in John we just read that Jesus left the apostles in the boat alone so that he could go up to the mountain and pray…? He left the apostles? Didn’t he know the storm was coming? Didn’t he notice the drop in temperature, the ominous clouds on the horizon, and the increasing wind? Did he really not see their impending doom?

So a “great wind” whips up, and the sea (waves) rise and the disciples rowed five and twenty, or thirty furlongs…How far is that exactly…oh, just the length of about 75 football fields!!!!! I don’t know if you have done much rowing in your life, but rowing the length of one football field is exhausting, let alone 75! So that’s all interesting and everything, but what does Mark add to the story?

Mark Chapter 6

46 And when he had asent them away, he departed into a mountain to pray.

Jesus sent them into the sea, in the face of an impending storm????

47 And when even was come, the ship was in the midst of the sea, and he alone on the land.

48 And he saw them toiling in rowing; for the wind was contrary unto them: and about the fourth watch of the night he cometh unto them, walking upon the sea, and would have passed by them.

Okay, so this is really messed up…not only did they row the length of 75 football fields, they did it against the wind! Add to that, the fact that Jesus watched them toiling along the whole way and waited until the 4th watch to come out to them and give them aid…plus he would have passed right by them unless they had suppressed their fear and cried out to him…

49 But when they saw him walking upon the sea, they supposed it had been a spirit, and cried out:

50 For they all saw him, and were troubled. And immediately he talked with them, and saith unto them, Be of good cheer: it is I; be not afraid.

So what can we learn from this story…I am quite certain, that the entire time the apostles rowed they either grumbled the whole time about why Jesus wasn’t there, or they were praying he would show up now! They were probably physically exhausted and terrified that they would drown in the sea…then along comes Jesus, calms the sea and upbraids Peter for doubting…So what does this reveal about the character of God, our character as mortals, and the character God expects us to develop?

1) God is a 4th Watch God. In other words he often waits until the 4th watch, after we have toiled and strived and cried and wailed, until he finally comes to rescue us.

2) We expect God to be a 1st Watch God. We want him to come and take away our burdens now, before it gets to painful and difficult.

3)We must accept that the God we worship is a 4th Watch God, and not give up when he does not show up in the 1st 2nd or 3rd watch.

4)The burden that we carry in the meantime will make us stronger, will stretch the borders of our limitations and humble us the moment God takes over and relieves our burdens at that very moment (that He alone knows) when we can take no more.

5)If the trials of this life were anything less, there would be no need for this mortal existence, God would do everything for us, and we would not grow and develop into the strong beings that we are.

6)God expects us to worship and wait upon him as a 4th watch God, and it is our greatest trials, if endured, that will teach us this lesson the best.

7)God will not allow us to drown in the depths of our trials if we remove fear and doubt and cry out to him. We will toil to be sure, but not drown.

8)When God does offer relief, it is immediate.

9)There are cases where God is a 1st Watch God and it is in the area of forgiving the penitent.( a discussion for another time perhaps)

10)If we, in our lives have abandoned God because he did not come to us in the first hour, we can correct our thinking, and thus endure the trials we face with greater strength knowing that while God has not come yet, if we endure a little longer, surely he will come before we are overcome. This knowledge can be our greatest strength when we face our trials and wait upon our Lord.

The author also shared a story about his neglectful father that he had while growing up, and how his father ignored him and was cruel to him…the author prayed for years not only to forgive him, but to understand why his Father behaved this way, and how he could live and treat his son that way and not have joy in his family…he was bitter and resentful that the Lord would not help him understand that even later in life his Dad was distant and detached…so years go by and one day the author is playing with his own son and having a wonderful time and in a quite moment the spirit whispered to him…”which would you rather be? A son without a Father, or a Father without a son?” In that moment, after years of trying to understand and forgive, the Lord revealed to him a way for him to have compassion and empathy for the loss his Dad had suffered as a result of his choices…It was only after having a son himself, that he could truly understand the joys and pains of a father…the point I got from that story is that we can really miss the point of many of our trials if we cease to “wait upon God” for an answer…we cannot know how God will answer or in what way, but when he does answer, we can be sure that it will be the best answer…one we perhaps could not understand in any other way…

It would seem to me that this experience might help you to understand why God will let you toil along until there is a place in your life for him to drive home a particular lesson...

So I don’t know what else to say, other than how this realization effected me personally…I looked back on my decisions to walk away from the church in the past in a different light, and wonder now if I had endured my trials just a little longer how things would have turned out…I can’t draw conclusions for you…but I hope you will ponder this concept…I can think of lots of scriptures and people in the scriptures that drive this point home…it’s annoying to be sure…I want God to come in the 1st watch, but the reality is that he usually doesn’t…The fact that he does not, is meant to increase our faith, patience, and strength…I also submit to you that as long as you strive to overcome whatever it is your struggling with, in the moment where it seems like you just can't do anymore, God will step in and not let you drown...since learing this lesson, that has been the case for me and the sailing has seemed a lot smoother... "

Doctor Steuss · September 24, 2007

I used this line of reasoning with a friend of mine the other day and he put it this way:
"Okay, I will agree with you on that. There are various different teachings and a variety of different churches. So, why are their many different "Mormon" Churches that are based on the same Prophet and Book - meaning Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon"? and then he listed several "Mormon" religious groups.
SLC Based Mormons
Community of Christ "formerly Reorganized church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints"
FLDS
The True Church of Jesus Christ of LDS.
He gave me a reference of about thirty different religious groups claiming the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith as their founding prophet seer and revelator. Each one declaring the other apostate.
The most popular one is Warren Jeff and FLDS being in the news regarding Polygamy and a young lady forced to marry her cousin...
[…]

Simple answer (in regards to your friend’s retort). LDS don’t claim that the Book of Mormon or the Bible are enough. This is why the line of thinking still stands as a legitimate line of reasoning in regards to “mainstream” Christianity. Many within it feel that the Bible is sufficient and all that we need (placing the Bible on par with G-d Himself). However, if it was "sufficient" and "all that we need," then we wouldn't expect there to be so many divergent paths from this ultimate source of truth.

From an LDS paradigm, splinters are expected, even within “Mormonism.” This is why the need for continuing revelation becomes apparent. In fact, they seem to be a doctrinal tenet (as there will always be those who are carried about with every wind of doctrine [Eph 4:14]). LDS believe that not only did revelation not end with the Bible, but it also didn’t end with the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, nor Doctrine and Covenants.

Doctor Steuss · September 24, 2007

SeattleTruthSeeker / Timothy ------------,

I forgot to mention that your posting style and approach has changed substantially since your posting at MA&D (and your subsequent usage of a sock-puppet and deceit). It's refreshing and appreciated. I am disheartened that you have a link to CARM on your site and still claim that Christian Apologists have (emphasis in original) “…consistently shown that the doctrines of the LDS Church (otherwise known as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) are not in alignment with the scriptural teachings of the Bible. Yet, when presented with infallible reasonings and proofs, the LDS Believer and Apologist explain and rely upon the faulty argument that the Bible had become corrupt over the ages and that the original church of Jesus Christ went into a state of apostasy...,” and that you are still on your personal crusade to show why you “...can no longer accept the Doctrines of Mormonism.”

Anyway, once I figured out that this was the same person that engaged in blatant deceit and vociferous accusations on MA&D, I was quite surprised. You seem to have done a 180 in regards to your approach and I think it is quite commendable. Hopefully I will be able to follow your example.

Kudos!

-Stuart

Let's be careful about putting out proprietary information (such as real names) without proir consent. Most folks prefer to keep their identities private to avoid endless spambombs a/o harassment.

Honos

imported_Elphaba · September 25, 2007

"No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith" (Brigham Young, in Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p.289)

Hello Isaac!

Elphaba here.

I have been told I can come here to LDSFORUMS and discuss these issues as long as it is respectful, so, I am going to try and do just that.

First, by way of full disclosure, let me make a few statements before I start, which most of you already know, but some of you may not.

I am an ex-Mormon; however, I am not an anti-Mormon. There are a number of people on this board who know me and will vouch for me if any of you have any concerns.

Two, my passion, and knowledge, is with Mormon history. What you, Isaac, have discussed regarding JoD v. 7 is, admittedly, a scriptural interpretation. I don’t claim to have any expertise in that area.

Third, the Journal of Discourses is not considered doctrine; therefore, I don’t know of anyone who believes Joseph will literally have to give consent to enter the Celestial Kingdom. Perhaps some do, I am just not aware of them. More on this later.

Having said that, I thought you made a compelling scriptural argument for what is a fairly standard anti-Mormon claim. I had never looked at it that way before, and thought it was quite good.

However, would you mind if offered a different interpretation based on historical context. It's not going to negate your interpretation, as they will be two separate animals. However, I do think I have some information that you, and others, will find quite interesting. At least, it was interesting to me!

To do this properly I have to do a bit of background work, so please bear with me.

Let me begin explaining my interpretation by describing the 1859 mindset of Brigham Young, Wilford Woodruff, John Taylor, and the many other Mormons who had been converted by Joseph‘s prophetic mantel, who had helped Joseph build his Church from nothing into a thriving group of dedicated Saints, who had gone on countless missions because Joseph had asked them to, who had secretly and with hardship entered into polygamy as Joseph explained it was commanded by God, and who had suffered horrific persecutions by Joseph’s side, one of them even being terribly wounded during Joseph’s cold-blooded murder.

Obviously these are only a few of many examples of extraordinary fellowship, love and commitment to Joseph, his Church and their God.

These men, and countless other men and women, including some of Joseph’s wives who had loved him deeply, were still alive when Brigham gave this sermon. For all we know they may have been in the very seats Brigham was perched above.

I could give many other examples, but what I’m trying to do is describe how alive Joseph still was to Brigham, Woodruff, Taylor and many of the Saints in Zion. As Brigham says in this very sermon, “Joseph Smith . . . , and is now engaged behind the veil in the great work of the last days.”

Of course, they still mourned Joseph’s presence, but have no doubt, they believed he was very much alive and waiting to welcome them into the Celestial Kingdom. To Brigham he seemed very near, especially at his deathbed where his last whispers were “Joseph, Joseph, Joseph.“

So now you have a sense of how Joseph’s fellow friends and Saints still loved him, but there’s one more ingredient I need to add, and that is vengeance.

Their relationships with Joseph had made their lives marvelous, but it had also made their lives tragic, and their memories were still full of terrors: wars with their neighbors, being strapped to trees and whipped to death, being burned out of their homes with little children in the middle of shocking cold winters, a little boy at Haun’s Mill, begging for his life, shot by a man laughing, “Where there’s nits, there’s lice.’ Unspeakable, inhuman acts of horror.

All of these persecutions, though not always caused by “religious intolerance” as claimed by Church officials, but nevertheless despicable, were still very much an agonizing memory, and the anger for the mobs, as well as the government, was still very fresh. In fact, it had only been two years since the Utah/Mormon War had occurred. Though there had been no bloodshed, the tensions, and the Saints unbearable fear of “here we go again,” kept those former persecutions fresh in their minds.

Additionally, as many of you may know, and I won’t go into detail, in 1859 the temple ordinances contained oaths of vengeance.

So, if you will, I’d like you to sit with all of this for a few minutes. Imagine yourself in Utah in 1859. It’s only been two years since the Utah/Mormon war. There’s tension between the Mormons and the growing gentile population. The past, and soon to be persecutions, are a wound that won’t be healed for another forty to fifty years.

And Joseph. Dear Joseph. Perhaps he’s a beloved memory to some of the congregation. For sure he is to Brigham, as, in his loud, gruff voice, he continues his sermon:

“Joseph Smith holds the keys of this last dispensation, and is now engaged behind the veil in the great work of the last days. I can tell our beloved brother Christians who have slain the Prophets and butchered and otherwise caused the death of thousands of Latter-day Saints, the priests who have thanked God in their prayers and thanksgiving from the pulpit that we have been plundered, driven, and slain, and the deacons under the pulpit, and their brethren and sisters in their closets, who have thanked God, thinking that the Latter-day Saints were wasted away, something that no doubt will mortify them—something that, to say the least, is a matter of deep regret to them—namely, that no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith.”

Can you believe what you just heard? That was Brigham Young! The Lion of the Lord! I have chills!

Can you see, now, taken in historical context, that Brigham is talking literally. Not only is he literally saying Joseph is alive, behind the veil and holding the keys of this last dispensation.

He is also saying Joseph is essentially going to have his vengeance on all of the people who persecuted his Church! Time after time after time these murderers got away with their horrific deeds, and even the government would do nothing about it. But now, Joseph! Joseph! has the final say. If these people want into the Celestial Kingdom, Joseph, and only Joseph, can let them in.

It’s the perfect revenge. The psychology of it is so incredibly satisfying. And for those who will be shocked, humiliated and horrified that Joseph was the prophet he claimed to be, it’s even worse:

“From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are—I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent. He holds the keys of that kingdom for the last dispensation—the keys to rule in the spirit-world; and he rules there triumphantly, for he gained full power and a glorious victory over the power of Satan while he was yet in the flesh, and was a martyr to his religion and to the name of Christ, which gives him a most perfect victory in the spirit-world. He reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven. Many will exclaim—"Oh, that is very disagreeable! It is preposterous! We cannot bear the thought!" But it is true.

Brigham was a crusty orator. I can just picture him, believing in a very real way that he’s having the last laugh on all of the mobbers and persecutors, “Oh, that is very disagreeable! (snotty bar thug voice) “It is preposterous! (snooty professorial voice) “We cannot bear the thought!” (arrogant store clerk, caught cowering)

Brigham goes on, and to me, his anger seems to have seeped out of him. I have always found this paragraph very telling. I can’t be sure, because I don’t think Brigham was the “sensitive” type, but I find incredible beauty in this paragraph. Brigham is talking about Joseph like a man talks about his dearest love, and their mission of love for all of mankind. What a transition--”You’ll humble yourself to Joseph,” to “Joseph loves you so much he will never cease until the last ones of the children of men are saved . . . “ :

“I will now tell you something that ought to comfort every man and woman on the face of the earth. Joseph Smith, junior, will again be on this earth dictating plans and calling forth his brethren to be baptized for the very characters who wish this was not so, in order to bring them into a kingdom to enjoy, perhaps, the presence of angels or the spirits of good men, if they cannot endure the presence of the Father and the Son; and he will never cease his operations, under the directions of the Son of God, until the last ones of the children of men are saved that can be, from Adam till now.”

I don’t know. Perhaps Brigham’s still being crusty. But what he’s saying is that Joseph is not gone, and Joseph is not done. And Brigham realizes what an incredible gift that is to the world. Very powerful.

So, Isaac, what do you think of my analysis? I don’t expect you to agree with me, and that’s okay. I just love the Journal of Discourses and looking at Brigham’s sermons in their historical context. I really enjoyed this one. I’d read a bit about it years ago and had already formulated my basic beliefs, but I’d never written them down before, and it was really a pleasure! So, thank you for the opportunity (even though you didn’t know you gave me one.)

Elphaba

snipe123 · September 25, 2007

SeattleTruthSeeker / Timothy Berman,
I forgot to mention that your posting style and approach has changed substantially since your posting at MA&D (and your subsequent usage of a sock-puppet and deceit). It's refreshing and appreciated. I am disheartened that you have a link to CARM on your site and still claim that Christian Apologists have (emphasis in original) “…consistently shown that the doctrines of the LDS Church (otherwise known as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) are not in alignment with the scriptural teachings of the Bible. Yet, when presented with infallible reasonings and proofs, the LDS Believer and Apologist explain and rely upon the faulty argument that the Bible had become corrupt over the ages and that the original church of Jesus Christ went into a state of apostasy...,” and that you are still on your personal crusade to show why you “...can no longer accept the Doctrines of Mormonism.”
Anyway, once I figured out that this was the same person that engaged in blatant deceit and vociferous accusations on MA&D, I was quite surprised. You seem to have done a 180 in regards to your approach and I think it is quite commendable. Hopefully I will be able to follow your example.
Kudos!
-Stuart

So does this mean he is just another anti-mormon in diguise, or that he is really wanting answers to his questions?

SeattleTruthSeeker · September 25, 2007

So does this mean he is just another anti-mormon in diguise, or that he is really wanting answers to his questions?

I am actually a member who had stopped attending the Church because of personal issues that my now girlfriend (who is a member) is helping me work through.

SeattleTruthSeeker · September 25, 2007

SeattleTruthSeeker / Timothy -----------,
I forgot to mention that your posting style and approach has changed substantially since your posting at MA&D (and your subsequent usage of a sock-puppet and deceit). It's refreshing and appreciated. I am disheartened that you have a link to CARM on your site and still claim that Christian Apologists have (emphasis in original) “…consistently shown that the doctrines of the LDS Church (otherwise known as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) are not in alignment with the scriptural teachings of the Bible. Yet, when presented with infallible reasonings and proofs, the LDS Believer and Apologist explain and rely upon the faulty argument that the Bible had become corrupt over the ages and that the original church of Jesus Christ went into a state of apostasy...,” and that you are still on your personal crusade to show why you “...can no longer accept the Doctrines of Mormonism.”
Anyway, once I figured out that this was the same person that engaged in blatant deceit and vociferous accusations on MA&D, I was quite surprised. You seem to have done a 180 in regards to your approach and I think it is quite commendable. Hopefully I will be able to follow your example.
Kudos!
-Stuart

Thank you...

I have honest questions that I hope I can find answers to and not be attacked personally. I had to grow up (thanks to the wonderful lady in my life).

Still_Small_Voice · September 25, 2007

“Joseph Smith holds the keys of this last dispensation, and is now engaged behind the veil in the great work of the last days. I can tell our beloved brother Christians who have slain the Prophets and butchered and otherwise caused the death of thousands of Latter-day Saints, the priests who have thanked God in their prayers and thanksgiving from the pulpit that we have been plundered, driven, and slain, and the deacons under the pulpit, and their brethren and sisters in their closets, who have thanked God, thinking that the Latter-day Saints were wasted away, something that no doubt will mortify them—something that, to say the least, is a matter of deep regret to them—namely, that no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith.”
Can you believe what you just heard? That was Brigham Young! The Lion of the Lord! I have chills!
Can you see, now, taken in historical context, that Brigham is talking literally. Not only is he literally saying Joseph is alive, behind the veil and holding the keys of this last dispensation.

This isn't any new doctrine. Christ has given the keys of judgment to His servants in many dispensations. His servants will take no different judgment than He would. They will judge perfectly as He will make them perfect judges. I take joy in the truth that if I am faithful, Jesus will be my advocate in this judgment.

Christ taught the following recorded in the book of Matthew chapter 19:

27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?

28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Doctor Steuss · September 25, 2007

Thank you...
I have honest questions that I hope I can find answers to and not be attacked personally. I had to grow up (thanks to the wonderful lady in my life).

It's commendable and amiable. It gives me something to aspire to (maybe I need to find me one of those ladies).

Seriously, anyone who can make such a change in their life (and in seemingly short time) is deserving of my utmost respect. I am sincerely impressed.

Hopefully the questions will find answers. But, in my experience, usually when a question is answered within the LDS paradigm, it just causes further exploration and even more questions... I guess that's why I like it.

-Stu

imported_Elphaba · September 25, 2007

This isn't any new doctrine. Christ has given the keys of judgment to His servants in many dispensations. His servants will take no different judgment than He would. They will judge perfectly as He will make them perfect judges. I take joy in the truth that if I am faithful, Jesus will be my advocate in this judgment.
Christ taught the following recorded in the book of Matthew chapter 19:
27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

I'm not sure I understand your point.

I made it clear from the beginning that my post wasn't meant to be doctrinal at all, as the Journal of Discourses isn't doctrine.

I also was very clear that it wasn't a scriptural interpretation; rather it was a historical one

Elphaba

snipe123 · September 25, 2007

Hey Elph...Great post!...I placed my response within the body of your comments...

Hello Isaac!
Elphaba here.
I have been told I can come here to LDSFORUMS and discuss these issues as long as it is respectful, so, I am going to try and do just that.
Strawberry Shortcake...Think: "Strawberry shortcake."
First, by way of full disclosure, let me make a few statements before I start, which most of you already know, but some of you may not.
I am an ex-Mormon; however, I am not an anti-Mormon. There are a number of people on this board who know me and will vouch for me if any of you have any concerns.
Yep, I get the difference...To often when someone is critical on historical grounds, Mormons are quick to cry "anti-mormon!" When often it could just be a discussion about history and each individuals view of that history...
Two, my passion, and knowledge, is with Mormon history. What you, Isaac, have discussed regarding JoD v. 7 is, admittedly, a scriptural interpretation. I don’t claim to have any expertise in that area.
Third, the Journal of Discourses is not considered doctrine; therefore, I don’t know of anyone who believes Joseph will literally have to give consent to enter the Celestial Kingdom. Perhaps some do, I am just not aware of them. More on this later.
Having said that, I thought you made a compelling scriptural argument for what is a fairly standard anti-Mormon claim. I had never looked at it that way before, and thought it was quite good.
I agree that the JOD is not official doctrine, although it totally kicks butt... :) (I had a black leather, hand-stiched set of the JOD which I....hold your breath...SOLD...didn't throw it away Elph...thankfully...but now I miss them sorely...)I think that the concept that I shared, and that Brigham is refering to, is on a firm doctrinal foundation however, despite the fact that you had not heard that take on it...Oooh, that sounded like a critisism and it was not meant to be... I will discuss this more at the end even though I realize your more interested in the historical aspects, but I think some of the readers here, might like some doctrinal or scriptural analysis as well, on a controversial (to some) paragraph...anti-mormons love to make hay with a very small snipet of what Brigham was saying(as you mentioned)...glad you posted more of what he said so it can be viewed in context. Kudos I find the full quote to be far more complimentary than damning...add your analysis and it looks even better...Unfortunately I will have to work within the context of the scriptures only since my LDS Infobase Library also occupies a trash heap (ouch...there is that theme again...ugh)and I will not be able to search out teachings by various church leaders and others on the subject of the apostles charge over the dispensation in which they are called
However, would you mind if offered a different interpretation based on historical context. It's not going to negate your interpretation, as they will be two separate animals. However, I do think I have some information that you, and others, will find quite interesting. At least, it was interesting to me!
Elph I have to give you credit for your historical analysis here...I found it all very interesting...It was really great, and your passion for Mormon history is evident...Despite what some of your critics claim and what Mormons say in general about people who have even the slightest negative thing to say about church history(though you said nothing negative here) ...it is possible to view the church from an historical view point...granted, much of that history is religious in theme and so it is important to understand the religion and scripture behind what motivates the movement and thought of the church...present discussion incuded...:) So I am glad you found the scriptural analysis to be a good one...and I will develop it further below
To do this properly I have to do a bit of background work, so please bear with me.
Let me begin explaining my interpretation by describing the 1859 mindset of Brigham Young, Wilford Woodruff, John Taylor, and the many other Mormons who had been converted by Joseph‘s prophetic mantel, who had helped Joseph build his Church from nothing into a thriving group of dedicated Saints, who had gone on countless missions because Joseph had asked them to, who had secretly and with hardship entered into polygamy as Joseph explained it was commanded by God, and who had suffered horrific persecutions by Joseph’s side, one of them even being terribly wounded during Joseph’s cold-blooded murder.
Obviously these are only a few of many examples of extraordinary fellowship, love and commitment to Joseph, his Church and their God.
These men, and countless other men and women, including some of Joseph’s wives who had loved him deeply, were still alive when Brigham gave this sermon. For all we know they may have been in the very seats Brigham was perched above.
I could give many other examples, but what I’m trying to do is describe how alive Joseph still was to Brigham, Woodruff, Taylor and many of the Saints in Zion. As Brigham says in this very sermon, “Joseph Smith . . . , and is now engaged behind the veil in the great work of the last days.”
I was talking to a dear friend the other day from my mission, who lives in Nauvoo. We were wondering what it must have been like to walk down the street and bump into Joseph...To have him shake your hand, smile and perhaps share a word...must have been an amazing time and I can only imagine how much he was missed.
Of course, they still mourned Joseph’s presence, but have no doubt, they believed he was very much alive and waiting to welcome them into the Celestial Kingdom. To Brigham he seemed very near, especially at his deathbed where his last whispers were “Joseph, Joseph, Joseph.“
So now you have a sense of how Joseph’s fellow friends and Saints still loved him, but there’s one more ingredient I need to add, and that is vengeance.
Their relationships with Joseph had made their lives marvelous, but it had also made their lives tragic, and their memories were still full of terrors: wars with their neighbors, being strapped to trees and whipped to death, being burned out of their homes with little children in the middle of shocking cold winters, a little boy at Haun’s Mill, begging for his life, shot by a man laughing, “Where there’s nits, there’s lice.’ Unspeakable, inhuman acts of horror.
All of these persecutions, though not always caused by “religious intolerance” as claimed by Church officials, but nevertheless despicable, were still very much an agonizing memory, and the anger for the mobs, as well as the government, was still very fresh. In fact, it had only been two years since the Utah/Mormon War had occurred. Though there had been no bloodshed, the tensions, and the Saints unbearable fear of “here we go again,” kept those former persecutions fresh in their minds.
Additionally, as many of you may know, and I won’t go into detail, in 1859 the temple ordinances contained oaths of vengeance.
So, if you will, I’d like you to sit with all of this for a few minutes. Imagine yourself in Utah in 1859. It’s only been two years since the Utah/Mormon war. There’s tension between the Mormons and the growing gentile population. The past, and soon to be persecutions, are a wound that won’t be healed for another forty to fifty years.
And Joseph. Dear Joseph. Perhaps he’s a beloved memory to some of the congregation. For sure he is to Brigham, as, in his loud, gruff voice, he continues his sermon:
“Joseph Smith holds the keys of this last dispensation, and is now engaged behind the veil in the great work of the last days. I can tell our beloved brother Christians who have slain the Prophets and butchered and otherwise caused the death of thousands of Latter-day Saints, the priests who have thanked God in their prayers and thanksgiving from the pulpit that we have been plundered, driven, and slain, and the deacons under the pulpit, and their brethren and sisters in their closets, who have thanked God, thinking that the Latter-day Saints were wasted away, something that no doubt will mortify them—something that, to say the least, is a matter of deep regret to them—namely, that no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith.”
Can you believe what you just heard? That was Brigham Young! The Lion of the Lord! I have chills!
Can you see, now, taken in historical context, that Brigham is talking literally. Not only is he literally saying Joseph is alive, behind the veil and holding the keys of this last dispensation.
So I am totally with you until right around here...:) I do think that the above paragraph quoting Brigham Young is absolutely 100% true, for the reasons stated before...(regarding the role of Prophets and Apostles judging the dispensations over which they have stewardship...etc...) I think Brigham in this paragraph is "crustilly"(:)) pointing out the irony associated with a fanatical Mob "...hailing the death of The Prophet with glee..."(Little Hugh Nibley for ya)...when upon their arrival at the judgement bar of God, they find that the very person they were hell-bent on killing, and whose blood they swore to drink, whom they regarded as a deceiver atleast, and a devil at worst, would now stand as a witness against them......I can just see the mob walking on the clouds of heaven (figuratively speaking)waving their muskets and swords about laughing and slapping oneanother on the back right up until the moment when they see Joseph standing in front of them...They stop dead in their tracks and the awful moment of realization would be painfully visible...I feel sorry for these men, but who knows, perhaps they will be forgiven, not knowing the full consequence of what they did...
He is also saying Joseph is essentially going to have his vengeance on all of the people who persecuted his Church! Time after time after time these murderers got away with their horrific deeds, and even the government would do nothing about it. But now, Joseph! Joseph! has the final say. If these people want into the Celestial Kingdom, Joseph, and only Joseph, can let them in.
Is this vengeance, or a bit of frontier irony?
It’s the perfect revenge. The psychology of it is so incredibly satisfying. And for those who will be shocked, humiliated and horrified that Joseph was the prophet he claimed to be, it’s even worse:
Have you read: "The Fate of the Persecutors of the Prophet Joseph Smith"
Fascinating book...and it does a great job of not only talking about what the title implies, but it also speaks at length about the mood of despair that settled over the church on the day he died, even before the news of his death was spread...Quotes all kinds of people who shared their thoughts and feeling upon hearing the news...Great book from a religious and historical standpoint...out of print, and I did get the title right this time, so maybe you can find it...:)
“From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are—I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent. He holds the keys of that kingdom for the last dispensation—the keys to rule in the spirit-world; and he rules there triumphantly, for he gained full power and a glorious victory over the power of Satan while he was yet in the flesh, and was a martyr to his religion and to the name of Christ, which gives him a most perfect victory in the spirit-world. He reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven. Many will exclaim—"Oh, that is very disagreeable! It is preposterous! We cannot bear the thought!" But it is true.
Brigham was a crusty orator. I can just picture him, believing in a very real way that he’s having the last laugh on all of the mobbers and persecutors, “Oh, that is very disagreeable! (snotty bar thug voice) “It is preposterous! (snooty professorial voice) “We cannot bear the thought!” (arrogant store clerk, caught cowering)
Not sure that Joseph would be motivated by vengance at that moment, (perhaps more of a witness or righteous judge) but Brigham might...haha...he could be a bit abbrasive at times and I will agree with you that his sermons are amazing and electifying
Brigham goes on, and to me, his anger seems to have seeped out of him. I have always found this paragraph very telling. I can’t be sure, because I don’t think Brigham was the “sensitive” type, but I find incredible beauty in this paragraph. Brigham is talking about Joseph like a man talks about his dearest love, and their mission of love for all of mankind. What a transition--”You’ll humble yourself to Joseph,” to “Joseph loves you so much he will never cease until the last ones of the children of men are saved . . . “ :
You know I think a lot of this image of Brigham we have is because of the photographs of him where he is always so serious and even frowning, add his "Brigham Beard" and it almost makes him look like a crusty old sea dog...I think beneath all of his brashness and frontier-like outspokeness, there was a soft, quiet and loving side as well...On this subject though, I think Brigham was still pretty raw as you said...He greatly loved his Prophet and depite the fact that vengeance belongs to God, he does derive some small satisfaction to the idea that justice, if not vengeance will be caried out...
“I will now tell you something that ought to comfort every man and woman on the face of the earth. Joseph Smith, junior, will again be on this earth dictating plans and calling forth his brethren to be baptized for the very characters who wish this was not so, in order to bring them into a kingdom to enjoy, perhaps, the presence of angels or the spirits of good men, if they cannot endure the presence of the Father and the Son; and he will never cease his operations, under the directions of the Son of God, until the last ones of the children of men are saved that can be, from Adam till now.”
I don’t know. Perhaps Brigham’s still being crusty. But what he’s saying is that Joseph is not gone, and Joseph is not done. And Brigham realizes what an incredible gift that is to the world. Very powerful.
So, Isaac, what do you think of my analysis? I don’t expect you to agree with me, and that’s okay. I just love the Journal of Discourses and looking at Brigham’s sermons in their historical context. I really enjoyed this one. I’d read a bit about it years ago and had already formulated my basic beliefs, but I’d never written them down before, and it was really a pleasure! So, thank you for the opportunity (even though you didn’t know you gave me one.)
Overall Elph, I like your analysis...The historical perspective is a good one...One of your best posts I have read thus far, even a bit of "puffball-ness" to it...:) I think the only thing I don't agree with...perhaps...is the word "vengeance" that you use...This word is not used by Brigham...It might be implied depending on how you look at his statement, but I tend to look at it more as a statement of irony than vengeance...That the man who was so persecuted and reviled would now stand to witness against, and perhaps judge his persecutors.

So now for the scripture stuff:

As I have reviewed these, it is interesting to note that while men, and their blood, cry for vengeance unto God and that they stand as witnesses against those who commited the crimes against them, the vengeance part of this belongs to God:

Rom. 12: 19

19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Genesis 4:10 God speaking to Cain after he murdered his brother.

And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother’s blood crieth unto me from the ground.

(The blood of this, (and I would add ALL) murder victims cry up as a witness to God to the deads done by their murderer...not literally, but figurativly speaking...the blood of an innocent demands the attention of God.)

Mormon 8:40-41

40 Yea, why do ye build up your secret abominations to get gain, and cause that widows should mourn before the Lord, and also orphans to mourn before the Lord, and also the blood of their fathers and their husbands to cry unto the Lord from the ground, for vengeance upon your heads?

41 Behold, the sword of vengeance hangeth over you; and the time soon cometh that he avengeth the blood of the saints upon you, for he will not suffer their cries any longer.

Deut. 32: 43

43 Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people. (Vengeance belongs to God, not the victims...God will avenge his slain servants)

Alma 37: 30

30 For behold, they murdered all the prophets of the Lord who came among them to declare unto them concerning their iniquities; and the blood of those whom they murdered did cry unto the Lord their God for vengeance upon those who were their murderers; and thus the judgments of God did come upon these workers of darkness and secret . (The blood of the prophets will witness against those to whom they preached)

1.James 5: 3

Your gold and silver is cankered; and the crust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days. (Mans possessions will be a testimony to his pursuits on earth)

Moroni 10:27

And I exhort you to remember these things; for the time speedily cometh that ye shall know that I lie not, for ye shall see me at the bar of God; and the Lord God will say unto you: Did I not declare my words unto you, which were written by this man, like as one crying from the dead, yea, even as one speaking out of the dust? (Moronis answer will be "Yes".) Moroni will stand as witness for or against those who have read his words...

So we have established that there will be witnesses, but what about Judges?

Morm. 3: 18-19

18 Yea, behold, I write unto all the ends of the earth; yea, unto you, twelve tribes of Israel, who shall be judged according to your works by the twelve whom Jesus chose to be his disciples in the land of Jerusalem.

19 And I write also unto the remnant of this people, who shall also be judged by the twelve whom Jesus chose in this land; and they shall be judged by the other twelve whom Jesus chose in the land of Jerusalem.

The 12 called in the American continent will judge it's inhabitants, while the twelve in Jerusalem will judge there.

Matt. 19: 28

28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the generation when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

This one was sited earlier and the one below is similar...

Luke 22: 30

30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Unfortunetely I do not have the reference material that I used to, so statements rearding the current dispensation and who will judge etc. are not readily available, but I do know I have read this doctrine taught elsewhere...That prophets and apostles will sit as judges with Christ over the dispensation in which they were called...Hopefully the scriptures above, establish what we like to call "precedent" since I am lacking more evidence...however I do find the statements of Brigham Young to be authoritative if not supportive of the scripture...Hopefully someone else can pick up where I left off here...Since this is a forum...:)

Anyway Elph, great discussion...

snipe123 · September 25, 2007

Thank you...
I have honest questions that I hope I can find answers to and not be attacked personally. I had to grow up (thanks to the wonderful lady in my life).

Glad to help Seattle, so ask away...:)

snipe123 · September 25, 2007

It's commendable and amiable. It gives me something to aspire to (maybe I need to find me one of those ladies).
Seriously, anyone who can make such a change in their life (and in seemingly short time) is deserving of my utmost respect. I am sincerely impressed.
Hopefully the questions will find answers. But, in my experience, usually when a question is answered within the LDS paradigm, it just causes further exploration and even more questions... I guess that's why I like it.
-Stu

So did he used to be an anti-mormon then? He has had a change of heart then...great! :)

avatar4321 · September 25, 2007

Thank you...
I have honest questions that I hope I can find answers to and not be attacked personally. I had to grow up (thanks to the wonderful lady in my life).

If you want answers you arent going to find them from anti mormon sources misquoting leaders and ignoring the scriptures. Youll find them in the scriptures and through prayer and fasting. Because revelation is the only way to get the wisdom and knowledge you need to break through the confusion and doubt.

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