What Does It Sayeth?

[JohnFrum]

My question/conundrum is pretty simple, and it has hit me like a sack of bricks. Subject matter aside, the BOM is written in the same post-middle English vernacular as the King James version of the Bible. The implications for me are profoundly disturbing. The BOM was translated in the fall of 1827 directly from the ancient plates, which were circa 600 B.C., right? The diction of the BOM translation should resemble the written discourse of that period, but it doesn't--especially not the brand of American English used in upstate New York. Have I missed something? I've been challenged recently by some informal investigators, and to be honest, I'm stumped. Any enlightenment would be appreciated!

[checkerboy]

You've got to remember that Joseph Smith didn't have very much formal education. Also you have to remember that interpretation is never word for word. Joseph simply used wording and phrasing that he was used to, namely from the Bible. He wasn't a writer. He hadn't writen anything before. If you compare the text of the Book of Mormon to the Doctrine and Covenents you see a huge difference in the "diction." The D&C was writen directly as the words came from his mouth from God, whereas the Book of Mormon is a translation.

[snipe123]

My question/conundrum is pretty simple, and it has hit me like a sack of bricks. Subject matter aside, the BOM is written in the same post-middle English vernacular as the King James version of the Bible. The implications for me are profoundly disturbing. The BOM was translated in the fall of 1827 directly from the ancient plates, which were circa 600 B.C., right? The diction of the BOM translation should resemble the written discourse of that period, but it doesn't--especially not the brand of American English used in upstate New York. Have I missed something? I've been challenged recently by some informal investigators, and to be honest, I'm stumped. Any enlightenment would be appreciated!

Here are a number of good articles on the subject: http://www.fairlds.org/apol/ai285.html

In short: That the Nephites and Joseph Smith did not speak King James English is obvious, and it is not a problem...The job of a good translator is to render his translation in a way that his readers will understand, find meaningful, appreciate, be familiar with, etc...Most people in Jospeh Smiths day read The King James version of the Bible...I have read that version of the Bible my entire life, and when I read our more modern versions of the scriptures, like the NIV it seems foreign to me and does not sound at all like scripture...That does not mean that it isn't of course, but it was the "language of God" most English readers were familiar with in Josephs day... Had Josephs target audience been 5th graders (exclusively), then he might have rendered his translation into Pig Latin...would not be very reverent of course, but atleast every 5th grader on the planet would understand and appreciate it... That was a joke of course....

"The diction of a translation" is not determined by any such thing (that is the choice of the translator) as the period from which it is extracted, as evidenced by the fact that he used King James English...He either wrote it himself in King James English (not an easy task since it is not commonly used in every day speech as you pointed out) or he rendered his translation in King James English...still not an easy task, but very cool, and very worthwhile...Either way, he obviously did not stick to the language on the plates ( " which consists of the learning of the jews [Hebrew] and the language of the Egyptians[Heiroglyphics] ... 1Nephi 1:2) , or the common tongue of his own day...Have you looked at the direct word for word translation of a particular Bible verse from Greek? If it was simply rendered exactly word for word it would not make sense to you, and would sound like very choppy, bad English...Biblical translators have to be very skilled individuals to preserve the meaning of the original, while still making it comprehensible to his readers...The beauty of the King James is that the translators rendered the text in a beautiful way that one can not only understand, but appreciate...That is also the beauty of Joseph Smiths translation...

By the way, you might look into the Hebrew forms of Poetry that the Book of mormon has THROUGHOUT ITS ENTIRE LENGTH called Chiasms...Then you will really begin to understand the ancient origins of the words in The Book of Mormon and how amazing it was for Joseph to have preserved that form of poetry in his translation...HIs skill as a translator is unmatched because he did it by The Spirit...By the way, Chiasms were an unknown form of writing in Joseph Smiths day, and have only recently been rediscovered ...Articles on that and many like subjects may also be found on the website I linked you to, among other places...

Hope that helps you and your friend...

[Sheelah]

Here's a link to FAIR that helps explain this too: Textual Issues

If you find yourself dealing with many issues or just for your general knowledge, I'd suggest FAIR and Neal A. Maxwell Institute. FAIR is the Foundation for Apologetic Information and Research and the Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship is through BYU.

These two sites can help to answer most questions/concerns that challengers question.

Edit: ahh I see Isaac beat me to it :)

[LdsNana]

The evidences of the Book of Mormon as a true record come from God, as well as establishing Joseph Smith as a true prophet of God are astounding and fan-tab-u-lous when studied indepth.

It appears as though you have been given some wonderful insights as well as sent in a good direction to begin a facinating discovery for yourself. We shall enjoy hearing of your journey to come. Wait until they challenge you on the Pearl of Great Price! And they will! Get ready for this, but fear not as the evidence here is as compelling if not more of this young boys connection with God and how God has prepared to stand behind him.

I love Second Timothy, Chapter two. May you read it and gain immense strength and counsel from that which Paul gave unto Timothy and no doubt was of tremendous benefit unto him. I love Paul, for he was such a wonderful defender of the faith, for his cause was the Gospel of Jesus Christ in all things and he never allowed others to sidetrack his teAchiNg of his master. I do believe this was his defense against becoming ensnared...

If the ELECT are prepared, they shall NOT fear, but WILL be upheld in ALL things...

tdmg,

gVr

[Sheelah]

Just out of curiosity, gVr, what does "tdmg" mean?

[LdsNana]

Just out of curiosity, gVr, what does "tdmg" mean?

Hi Sheelah,

It means "to do more good".

Which is truly what I hope we all will accomplish out here on the net, as we spend our precious little time with one another lifting, teaching and sharing what we have been blessed with, and in return to give it back. This is a contant reminder to ME, that I will always remember to never leave anything behind but what I feel is an offering of more good.

This can be very challenging depending upon where one treads in cyberspace and who one encounters. Thus my suggestion to read Second Timothy Chapter two, which I feel is most important. But I personally can be very aggresive in defending the faith and need to remember meekness, as I have found that knowledge unto teaching is the very best defense.

Pure testimony filled with the spirit is the Armor of God that we all need as we step out into this world of the unknown and desire to make an impact "TO DO MORE GOOD". :)

Thanks for asking,

tdmg,

gVr

[LdsNana]

Just out of curiosity, gVr, what does "tdmg" mean?

But mostly, I am just simply TRYING -to-do-more-good :) like all of YOU!

tdmg,

gVr

[Sheelah]

Thanks, that was a very *good* reply :)

[Dale]

Some person's sounded like Joseph Smith did a word for word translation. But if the text is an indication what he saw was not word for word text. What people thought wasn't necessarily the way things were.

[Sheelah]

Wow Dale, I hate to say, I have no idea what you're trying to say

Dale is talking about the ongoing question about whether the Book of Mormon is a "tight" translation or a "loose" one.

Essentially, it's a question of whether Joseph dictated the words precisely as they were revealed to him or whether he was allowed some latitude in expressing the thought. To put it another way, was he relaying the letter of the law or the spirit of the law.

Thoughtful and well-educated scholars come down on both sides of the matter- while most of the membership simply doesn't care.

Honos

[Moksha]

In short: That the Nephites and Joseph Smith did not speak King James English is obvious, and it is not a problem...The job of a good translator is to render his translation in a way that his readers will understand, find meaningful, appreciate, be familiar with, etc...Most people in Joseph Smiths day read The King James version of the Bible...I have read that version of the Bible my entire life, and when I read our more modern versions of the scriptures, like the NIV it seems foreign to me and does not sound at all like scripture...That does not mean that it isn't of course, but it was the "language of God" most English readers were familiar with in Josephs day... Had Josephs target audience been 5th graders (exclusively), then he might have rendered his translation into Pig Latin...would not be very reverent of course, but at least every 5th grader on the planet would understand and appreciate it... That was a joke of course....

So it was written that way to make it sound more biblical, eh? Doest this accounteth why many prayers are sayethed in such manner as well, pray tell?

[The Nehor]

Many secular translations of religious and quasi-religious texts are still translated into King James English.

On my bookshelf behind me my copy of the translations of the Dead Sea Scrolls are written in Jacobean English as is my copy of Josephus, both of which were translated in this edition within the last 40 years. I expect if God had the Book of Mormon translated this year by an educated scholar it would also be in King James English.

[snipe123]

So it was written that way to make it sound more biblical, eh? Doest this accounteth why many prayers are sayethed in such manner as well, pray tell?

Well, to make it sound more beautiful and familiar...By the way Moksha, you just botched it horribly...hahaha

[Dale]

What Honos said is what i meant.

[Moksha]

By the way Moksha, you just botched it horribly...hahaha

Guess I will have to stick to my version of modern English. Although, if a few words of Jacobean English helps, what would a word or two of Old English do?

[ztodd]

The implications for me are profoundly disturbing.

When questions like this are thrown at ya, don't let it disturb you- keep your foundation on the doctrine and the gospel of Jesus Christ - the Book of Mormon is not primarily a book of history, although it is historically true, the most important thing is that it is spiritually true - the doctrines within it are true. Gain a testimony of that, and keep that testimony separate from trying to get historical proofs.

[JohnFrum]

Thanks for some very good answers.

Ztodd, I agree with your statement about spiritual truth, which is the truth that matters. Having said that, however, I'm starting to have some problems with the "historical truth" and things related to it.

The people I have been discussing all this with (let's just say--extended family members) have thrown some observations/questions at me that I am very ill-equipped to deal with. (I've been a member for a while now, but alas, I am a convert).

Perhaps growing up in the church, some of you have always known about kolob. I found out about it this afternoon... from my NON-mormon friends. Is this for real? I looked it up on Wikipedia. It sounds like something out of Scientology, but apparently it is mentioned in the POGP. What is the DEAL?

They also bring up some compelling points (I guess) from anthropologists and how there is no evidence whatsoever that any jewish clan came to the new world.

There are some other things they claimed that I don't care much about, but I might as well note them:

* Smith was trained in magic and mesmerism

* The temple ritual is based on a Masonic ritual

* Smith took a bride as young as 14...when he was in his late 30s?

* It would do me well to study "Hermeticism"--whatever that is.

* It would also do me well to study up on Christian Rosencreutz. Who the heck is that? (I looked the name up on Google. It looks like he's a Catholic bishop from a long time ago, but beyond that I lost interest.)

[ztodd]

All we know about Kolob is that it is the name of the star / planet near to where God lives. That's all. God lives somewhere near a star - the star is named Kolob. It's real, but it's part of the deeper doctrine that's interesting to know but not essential to our salvation. All we know is that it exists, and that time is measured differently there - a thousand years on earth = a day at Kolob. It doesn't do any good to speculate any farther than that. There are other teachings and scriptures saying how time is only measured unto man and God is not subject to time in the way we are, so we shouldn't go thinking that God is under any time constraints or anything.

It could be real informative if you wanted to pursue studying those topics on http://fairlds.org or in other church sources. Just remember to hold to your testimony from the Spirit concerning the truth of the doctrine and the gospel. Also, some things that were practiced back then would sound kind of crazy in today's culture, but back then they weren't. Like older men having younger wives.

[snipe123]

Thanks for some very good answers.

Ztodd, I agree with your statement about spiritual truth, which is the truth that matters. Having said that, however, I'm starting to have some problems with the "historical truth" and things related to it.

The people I have been discussing all this with (let's just say--extended family members) have thrown some observations/questions at me that I am very ill-equipped to deal with. (I've been a member for a while now, but alas, I am a convert).

I would take this as your que to better equip yourself then...forgive the reprimand here, but if you are getting these questions and do not have an imediate answer then take that as a clue to you that you need to do some searching...

Perhaps growing up in the church, some of you have always known about kolob. I found out about it this afternoon... from my NON-mormon friends. Is this for real? I looked it up on Wikipedia. It sounds like something out of Scientology, but apparently it is mentioned in the POGP. What is the DEAL?

Why don't you look it up somewhere besides Wikipedia? Why are you allowing the opinion of your friends who are reading anti-literature to provide the framework and context by which you should understand this question? Did you look at the POGP?

They also bring up some compelling points (I guess) from anthropologists and how there is no evidence whatsoever that any jewish clan came to the new world.

I have said this elsewhere but perhaps I can point out to you that Book of Mormon archaeology is in its infancy, and such evidence may or may not be found in the future...Anthropologists assumed forever that man came to this continent via Russia/Alaska on an ice bridge...but now we know there were transoceanic crossings of many ancient peoples as well...Science, and archaeological opinions change with each new discovery...perhaps your friends can furnish the evidence that there was a a tower of Babel, a flood, Manna feeding the Israelites from Heaven, that Jesus is the Savior?

There are some other things they claimed that I don't care much about, but I might as well note them:

* Smith was trained in magic and mesmerism

* The temple ritual is based on a Masonic ritual

* Smith took a bride as young as 14...when he was in his late 30s?

* It would do me well to study "Hermeticism"--whatever that is.

* It would also do me well to study up on Christian Rosencreutz. Who the heck is that? (I looked the name up on Google. It looks like he's a Catholic bishop from a long time ago, but beyond that I lost interest.)

For the other questions, particularly on Masonry, I would visit www.fairlds.com...Good stuff there...You need to study up and not focus on the anti-stuff...there is a dark spirit associated with reading such stuff...your getting it second had from your friends so it may be compelling, but check out the site link and I think you will breathe a little easier....

[MorningStar]

Thanks for some very good answers.

Ztodd, I agree with your statement about spiritual truth, which is the truth that matters. Having said that, however, I'm starting to have some problems with the "historical truth" and things related to it.

The people I have been discussing all this with (let's just say--extended family members) have thrown some observations/questions at me that I am very ill-equipped to deal with. (I've been a member for a while now, but alas, I am a convert).

Perhaps growing up in the church, some of you have always known about kolob. I found out about it this afternoon... from my NON-mormon friends. Is this for real? I looked it up on Wikipedia. It sounds like something out of Scientology, but apparently it is mentioned in the POGP. What is the DEAL?

They also bring up some compelling points (I guess) from anthropologists and how there is no evidence whatsoever that any jewish clan came to the new world.

There are some other things they claimed that I don't care much about, but I might as well note them:

* Smith was trained in magic and mesmerism

* The temple ritual is based on a Masonic ritual

* Smith took a bride as young as 14...when he was in his late 30s?

* It would do me well to study "Hermeticism"--whatever that is.

* It would also do me well to study up on Christian Rosencreutz. Who the heck is that? (I looked the name up on Google. It looks like he's a Catholic bishop from a long time ago, but beyond that I lost interest.)

There's a quote I read recently - I don't remember where. It said something like, "Don't let what you don't know take away what you do know." Listen to what the Spirit tells you and bring your concerns to Heavenly Father. :)

If you want to discuss these things, it would be best to do it one at a time in seperate threads.

[NeuroTypical]

Hi John!

First and foremost, go forth armed with the knowledge that every single criticism they're throwing at you, has been looked at and responded to. Is the response good? Does it make sense? Well, go forth and learn them and decide for yourself. The FAIR topical guide is an excellent resource - I whole heartedly add my recommendation.

* Smith was trained in magic and mesmerism

Heh. I hate to break it to your critic family members, but they didn't have Hogwarts in 1820's America. Nobody offered magic classes. Joseph did not go to any sort of classes. If you go look at what people believed during that time, it was very different than we do now. This was the age of divining rods and traveling snake oil salesman. Joseph was indeed part of the culture of the time, and held some of the misconceptions of the day. FAIR has all sorts of resources on the subject.

* The temple ritual is based on a Masonic ritual

There are similarities to be found between the two. People who claim that Joseph just took the Masonic stuff and 'rebranded' it into mormon stuff, are not aware of many relevant facts. Most relevant, is that Joseph's introduction to Masonry occured in 1842. Here's a list of stuff that happened BEFORE that date:

1835 - Book of Abraham

• Key-words of the priesthood

• The phrase “only to be had in the temple of God”

1837 - Ceremonial washing and Annointing with oil were practiced at Kirtland temple – 5 years before Joseph Smith was introduced to masonry.

Jan 19, 1841 - revelation on temple ordinances, now identified as Doctrine and Covenants 124

• Anointings (39)

• The keys of the holy priesthood (34, 95, 97) (Orson Pratt provided a footnoting system

for the Doctrine and Covenants that was included with the book up through 1918. In the

footnotes of D/C 124 he indicated that “keys” referred to in verses 95 and 97 were “the order of

God for receiving revelations” and “the order, ordained of God”

• Memorials of levitical sacrifices (39)

• Solemn assemblies (39)

• Oracles, conversations, statutes, and judgments (39)

• Ordinances that have been kept hidden (40-41)

• The fullness of the priesthood (28)

9 March 1841 – Joseph tells the Nauvoo Lyceum that the “great God has a name by which he will be called which is Ahman, also in asking have reference to person like Adam, for God made Adam just in His own image. Now this is a key for you to know how to ask and obtain.”

May 5 1841 – Visit with William Appleby – While discussing facsimile 2, Joseph explained to Appleby that part of the

drawing was related to “the Lord revealing the grand key words of the holy priesthood, to Adam in the garden of Eden, as also Seth, Noah, Melchizedek, Abraham, and to all whom the priesthood was revealed” (William I. Appleby journal,

5 May 1841, ms 1401 1, LDS church archives)

Again, all this stuff happened before Joseph actually became a Mason, and went through their rituals and whatnot.

* Smith took a bride as young as 14...when he was in his late 30s?

Again, you have to know something about the culture of the time. Frontier America was tough. People grew up and married earlier. You were an adult much earlier in life than you are today. Another thing to keep in mind, is we figure some of the women that were sealed to Joseph were not actually married to him, never lived with him, and there was no physical aspect to it. It's hard to prove either way, but we do notice a stark lack of children from Joseph's multiple wives. There is a DNA project out there looking for one - hasn't found any yet. One or two people who claimed to be descended from Joseph and someone other than Emma, have had their DNA tested and found that is not true.

* It would do me well to study "Hermeticism"--whatever that is.

Well, I'm not impressed after scanning through the Wikipedia entry. I've been an active Mormon for around two of my three decades of life, and there isn't much similarity here.

* It would also do me well to study up on Christian Rosencreutz. Who the heck is that? (I looked the name up on Google. It looks like he's a Catholic bishop from a long time ago, but beyond that I lost interest.)

I googled it too, and don't see much. It sounds like the common tactic of "I see a big stack of critical material. I haven't read any of it, but hey, those books look so thick, there's got to be something to it!"

Phooey. Make them give you specific, answerable claims. Go research them. See if there's anything to it. Vague warnings about "dat dang Joseph was a meeeeesmirist I tells ya!" shouldn't worry you.

LM

[LdsNana]

Thanks for some very good answers.

Ztodd, I agree with your statement about spiritual truth, which is the truth that matters. Having said that, however, I'm starting to have some problems with the "historical truth" and things related to it.

The people I have been discussing all this with (let's just say--extended family members) have thrown some observations/questions at me that I am very ill-equipped to deal with. (I've been a member for a while now, but alas, I am a convert).

Perhaps growing up in the church, some of you have always known about kolob. I found out about it this afternoon... from my NON-mormon friends. Is this for real? I looked it up on Wikipedia. It sounds like something out of Scientology, but apparently it is mentioned in the POGP. What is the DEAL?

They also bring up some compelling points (I guess) from anthropologists and how there is no evidence whatsoever that any jewish clan came to the new world.

There are some other things they claimed that I don't care much about, but I might as well note them:

* Smith was trained in magic and mesmerism

* The temple ritual is based on a Masonic ritual

* Smith took a bride as young as 14...when he was in his late 30s?

* It would do me well to study "Hermeticism"--whatever that is.

* It would also do me well to study up on Christian Rosencreutz. Who the heck is that? (I looked the name up on Google. It looks like he's a Catholic bishop from a long time ago, but beyond that I lost interest.)

John,

Can I tell you that I think you are so wise to reach out to other members for support when you are being bombarded with questions such as these, that most life-time members of the church could not possibly answer themselves. And in fact, that is precisely the point! I can promise you that those that are asking you these very specific questions did NOT make them up all by themselves.

You see John, as I am sure you are well aware, many people do not understand what The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day-Saints actually teaches. Most of what the public knows about the church comes from those who oppose the church. So much of our publicity is from those that have become disaffected from the church and are now going about to do damage. The other group are those who are offended that we claim rightful priesthood authority. This being that only ONE church can be The TRUE Church of Jesus Christ. We make that claim. We stand behind that claim in boldness. We make a promise to that claim that can be had by individuals....

And that brings me to my point now. I want you to know that I too am a convert of the church. My beginning years of membership were not diligent ones, but later in my life I became very serious in my study of the doctrine, principles and history of the church. My counsel to you at this time would be to "hold to the rod" that brought you into the waters of baptism.

Try to remember those feelings that you were personally given and received, when you were were taught the truths of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Remember the promise of The Book of Mormon and that by the Power of the Holy Ghost you would come to know for YOURSelf that it was TRUE. When you recall these experiences that can ONLY come through the Holy Ghost, then you can RE-Member WHY you chose to be baptized and become a MEMBER of The Kingdom of God here upon the earth.

It was Truth, that can only come from GOD, that brought you into His Kingdom and to Membership in His Church. The Book of Mormon is evidence that Jesus Christ is the Savior and Redeemer of the world. It also bears witness to us that he who God gave to bring it forth, and establish the foundation of His Church, IS a true prophet of God and has been given ALL of the priesthood keys necessary to administer salvation unto the children of men in the last days.

John- The evidences are overwhelming when received line upon line, by the spirit, when you are ready to receive them.

If you will remain faithful to what you have been given, and willingly received, and RE-MEMBER what you KNOW to be TRUE, and also confidently bear TESTIMONY of those TRUTHS, you will receive more LIGHT.

This is the PROMISE.

I testify to you, that to every ball that they have thrown at you, there is an answer. And in those answers you will add strength to your testimony. But you cannot study fast enough to absorb it all and put it together at one time, nor is it necessary. Do not allow Satan to take away your light. Guard it by fueling it with your faith and testimony. Stand up and speak up and testify of what you know is true and how you know it to be so. Do not fear to be mocked... for mocked you will be.

Your FAITH that you Know, which comes by the Power of the Holy Ghost is a gift from God. Always Re-Member this weekly, and He will ALWAYS remember YOU.

Remember the first commandment?

tdmg,

gVr

[JohnFrum]

Thanks Isaac. I couldn't agree more--I need to study up. Thanks for the suggestions!

[JohnFrum]

Thanks Isaac. I couldn't agree more--I need to study up. Thanks for the suggestions!

...And thanks to the rest of you too! I had no idea there would be so many helpful responses!