Dispensation Of The Fullness Of Times

[Shoofly]

Has the fullness of times been on the earth before this time?

[Dr. Mom]

Has the fullness of times been on the earth before this time?

Well, considering the gospel was restored to its fullness by our prophet Joseph Smith, I would have to say yes. Restoration does mean to make whole once more. So in order for something to be restored, it had to have once existed. If you look at the prefix RE as in REsurrection, REstored, REmission, REceive, REpent or even REcompense the "RE" is giving back to the present tense what the root word is saying from a past tense. I've done some research in the past and there are many similarities to the gospel as we have it now compared to what was before Christ's time. Keep in mind, the restoration happened because righteousness in the land was lacking and the rites/ceremonies became corrupt so God took the truth from the earth to prevent further corruption promising us that we would once again have it when the time was right.

Hope this helps!

[HiJolly]

Well, considering the gospel was restored to its fullness by our prophet Joseph Smith, I would have to say yes. Restoration does mean to make whole once more. So in order for something to be restored, it had to have once existed. If you look at the prefix RE as in REsurrection, REstored, REmission, REceive, REpent or even REcompense the "RE" is giving back to the present tense what the root word is saying from a past tense. I've done some research in the past and there are many similarities to the gospel as we have it now compared to what was before Christ's time. Keep in mind, the restoration happened because righteousness in the land was lacking and the rites/ceremonies became corrupt so God took the truth from the earth to prevent further corruption promising us that we would once again have it when the time was right.

Hope this helps!

Nice post, good points. Btw, you forgot REplenish

HiJolly

[the_jason]

I would have to disagree with Dr. Mom. True, all points of doctrine have been restored to the earth in these latter-days, but those points of doctrine were taken from each of the previous dispensations. Never has the complete gospel existed in any single dispensation previously. It's called the dispensation of the fullness of times because it IS the first dispensation with the fullness of the gospel.

[HiJolly]

I would have to disagree with Dr. Mom. True, all points of doctrine have been restored to the earth in these latter-days, but those points of doctrine were taken from each of the previous dispensations. Never has the complete gospel existed in any single dispensation previously. It's called the dispensation of the fullness of times because it IS the first dispensation with the fullness of the gospel.

It seems I recall a statement from Joseph Smith to that effect --- but I'm not sure about that, so I would love to see it if anyone knows where it might be...

HiJolly

[Sheelah]

Well I found a digitized copy of "Outlines of Ecclesiastical History" by BH Roberts online and on page 314 in notes he has the quote by Joseph Smith. Seems it first appeared in the Milennial Star. vol XVI, p. 220. Anyway the link to the book is here, I'm too lazy to retype the whole quote:

Outlines of Ecclesiastical History

[frbhg]

It seems I recall a statement from Joseph Smith to that effect --- but I'm not sure about that, so I would love to see it if anyone knows where it might be...

HiJolly

"It is in the order of heavenly things that God should always send a new dispensation into the world when men have apostatized from the truth and lost the priesthood," Joseph Smith explained. But the dispensation which he was called to direct consisted of more than a restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ with its saving ordinances. In explaining"the extent or authority" of this last dispensation, David W. Patten said: "It means this, that the dispensation of the fullness of times is made up of all the dispensations that ever have been given since the world began, until this time" The Dispensation of the Fullness of Times (that is, The Dispensation of the Fulness of Dispensations) is a composite dispensation, comprising all the keys, powers, authorities, and revelations that have been committed to man in all former ages of time. It is to be a dispensation of consummation and of fulfillment. The Prophet (Joseph) thus declared: "The dispensation of the fulness of times will bring to light the things that have been revealed in all former dispensations." Again he said, "God purposed in Himself that there should not be an eternal fulness until every dispensation should be fulfilled and gathered in one, and that all things whatsoever, that should be gathered together in one in those dispensations unto the same fulness and eternal glory, should be in Jesus Christ." Finally, as he referred to the program of the last dispensation, Joseph Smith said: "It is necessary in the ushering in of the dispensation of the fulness of times, which dispensation is now beginning to usher in, that a whole and complete and perfect union, and welding together of dispensations, and keys, and powers, and glories should take place, and be revealed from the days of Adam even to the present time."

But even this is not the full extent of the nature and power of the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times, for there were to be things revealed in this last dispensation that pertain exclusively to it and its program. Having made the statement last quoted in the paragraph above, Joseph Smith wrote: "And not only this, but those things which never have been revealed from the foundation of the world, but have been kept hid from the wise and prudent, shall be revealed unto babes and sucklings in this, the dispensation of the fulness of times." For this reason the Lord declared in a revelation: "For I deign to reveal unto my church things which have been kept hid from before the foundation of the world, things that pertain to the dispensation of the fulness of times." D&C 124:41

This excerpt was taken from Hyrum L. Andrus, God, Man, and the Universe.

[HiJolly]

"It is in the order of heavenly things that God should always send a new dispensation into the world when men have apostatized from the truth and lost the priesthood," Joseph Smith explained. But the dispensation which he was called to direct consisted of more than a restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ with its saving ordinances. In explaining"the extent or authority" of this last dispensation, David W. Patten said: "It means this, that the dispensation of the fullness of times is made up of all the dispensations that ever have been given since the world began, until this time" The Dispensation of the Fullness of Times (that is, The Dispensation of the Fulness of Dispensations) is a composite dispensation, comprising all the keys, powers, authorities, and revelations that have been committed to man in all former ages of time. It is to be a dispensation of consummation and of fulfillment. The Prophet (Joseph) thus declared: "The dispensation of the fulness of times will bring to light the things that have been revealed in all former dispensations." Again he said, "God purposed in Himself that there should not be an eternal fulness until every dispensation should be fulfilled and gathered in one, and that all things whatsoever, that should be gathered together in one in those dispensations unto the same fulness and eternal glory, should be in Jesus Christ." Finally, as he referred to the program of the last dispensation, Joseph Smith said: "It is necessary in the ushering in of the dispensation of the fulness of times, which dispensation is now beginning to usher in, that a whole and complete and perfect union, and welding together of dispensations, and keys, and powers, and glories should take place, and be revealed from the days of Adam even to the present time."

But even this is not the full extent of the nature and power of the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times, for there were to be things revealed in this last dispensation that pertain exclusively to it and its program. Having made the statement last quoted in the paragraph above, Joseph Smith wrote: "And not only this, but those things which never have been revealed from the foundation of the world, but have been kept hid from the wise and prudent, shall be revealed unto babes and sucklings in this, the dispensation of the fulness of times." For this reason the Lord declared in a revelation: "For I deign to reveal unto my church things which have been kept hid from before the foundation of the world, things that pertain to the dispensation of the fulness of times." D&C 124:41

This excerpt was taken from Hyrum L. Andrus, God, Man, and the Universe.

Ah! A book I happen to own (though I'm afraid it's presently gathering dust...) Thanks!

HiJolly

[Shoofly]

"It is in the order of heavenly things that God should always send a new dispensation into the world when men have apostatized from the truth and lost the priesthood," Joseph Smith explained. But the dispensation which he was called to direct consisted of more than a restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ with its saving ordinances. In explaining"the extent or authority" of this last dispensation, David W. Patten said: "It means this, that the dispensation of the fullness of times is made up of all the dispensations that ever have been given since the world began, until this time" The Dispensation of the Fullness of Times (that is, The Dispensation of the Fulness of Dispensations) is a composite dispensation, comprising all the keys, powers, authorities, and revelations that have been committed to man in all former ages of time. It is to be a dispensation of consummation and of fulfillment. The Prophet (Joseph) thus declared: "The dispensation of the fulness of times will bring to light the things that have been revealed in all former dispensations." Again he said, "God purposed in Himself that there should not be an eternal fulness until every dispensation should be fulfilled and gathered in one, and that all things whatsoever, that should be gathered together in one in those dispensations unto the same fulness and eternal glory, should be in Jesus Christ." Finally, as he referred to the program of the last dispensation, Joseph Smith said: "It is necessary in the ushering in of the dispensation of the fulness of times, which dispensation is now beginning to usher in, that a whole and complete and perfect union, and welding together of dispensations, and keys, and powers, and glories should take place, and be revealed from the days of Adam even to the present time."

But even this is not the full extent of the nature and power of the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times, for there were to be things revealed in this last dispensation that pertain exclusively to it and its program. Having made the statement last quoted in the paragraph above, Joseph Smith wrote: "And not only this, but those things which never have been revealed from the foundation of the world, but have been kept hid from the wise and prudent, shall be revealed unto babes and sucklings in this, the dispensation of the fulness of times." For this reason the Lord declared in a revelation: "For I deign to reveal unto my church things which have been kept hid from before the foundation of the world, things that pertain to the dispensation of the fulness of times." D&C 124:41

This excerpt was taken from Hyrum L. Andrus, God, Man, and the Universe.

Thank you for the reference and response.

[LdsNana]

frbhg -

I LOVE Hyrum Andrus! He totally rocks. I think everyone should read ALL of his books! He puts the period on many topics for me or has assisted me in coming to my own understanding on many doctrines and principles of the gospel.

If you love the mind of the prophet Joseph Smith, you will enjoy Hyrum Andrus' books, as his goal is to come to the understanding of gospel truths through the known reasoning of the mind of the prophet and with of course the truths he also revealed. So it is very sound in its presentation and fits well into the frame of what we are already familiar with.

Yet he expands the mind of his reader just as the prophet Joseph Smith did to all those who were blessed to know him personally. It was his higher understanding of true principles that he often associated with gospel truths that elevated the understanding of those who spent time in his midst.

Joseph Smith was a master teacher and this author enjoys bringing out this in his works.

[Traveler]

Has the fullness of times been on the earth before this time?

Just for fun I will pursue a slightly different course and different point of view. According to the Book of Enoch – all powers and knowledge that heaven had designated for man had been distributed to man prior to the flood. The miss use of such power and knowledge was part of the “covenant of destruction” upon which the flood was brought. Under that covenant certain powers and knowledge would be with held until the “end of times”.

One of the ridicules of Noah concerning the flood is that since man had the knowledge and power to control weather there could not be rain to cause the prophetic flood.

But then the Book of Enoch is not considered a reliable source.

The Traveler

[LdsNana]

Just for fun I will pursue a slightly different course and different point of view. According to the Book of Enoch – all powers and knowledge that heaven had designated for man had been distributed to man prior to the flood. The miss use of such power and knowledge was part of the “covenant of destruction” upon which the flood was brought. Under that covenant certain powers and knowledge would be with held until the “end of times”.

One of the ridicules of Noah concerning the flood is that since man had the knowledge and power to control weather there could not be rain to cause the prophetic flood.

But then the Book of Enoch is not considered a reliable source.

The Traveler

Hello Traveler,

First of all, it is God who confers man His Power to Righteously bless, etc... In section 121 of the Doctrine and Covenants, What the Lord reveals to us about Himself is very critical knowledge, as well as all those whom He allows to exercise His power.

41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;

42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile—

Note the bold word can in verse 42. Not even God Himself could, even IF he wanted to, misuse the Power of the Priesthood. It is that simple.

He is Perfect. Perfectly Righteous. If this were not an absolute truth, God would cease to BE God.

The Book of Enoch has much to value, but you must judge it by revealed truths to know what of it to value. Does it support or contradict? Now, you be the judge of your question...

Also I would seriously suggest you study LAW before you allow the apologist scholars to convince you that the Flood was not literal, etc... You may want to return to the faith of your childhood, which is a stronger foundation and one you will find the majority of the great prophets founded upon. And one which will NEVER fail you.

[Traveler]

Hello Traveler,

First of all, it is God who confers man His Power to Righteously bless, etc... In section 121 of the Doctrine and Covenants, What the Lord reveals to us about Himself is very critical knowledge, as well as all those whom He allows to exercise His power.

41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;

42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile—

Note the bold word can in verse 42. Not even God Himself could, even IF he wanted to, misuse the Power of the Priesthood. It is that simple.

He is Perfect. Perfectly Righteous. If this were not an absolute truth, God would cease to BE God.

The Book of Enoch has much to value, but you must judge it by revealed truths to know what of it to value. Does it support or contradict? Now, you be the judge of your question...

Also I would seriously suggest you study LAW before you allow the apologist scholars to convince you that the Flood was not literal, etc... You may want to return to the faith of your childhood, which is a stronger foundation and one you will find the majority of the great prophets founded upon. And one which will NEVER fail you.

Thank you for your interest in my post.

I am not sure on what point in my post you were referencing in your quoting of D&C 121. I would point out that in that section; there are strong words to those that abuse the authority and power of the priesthood. BTW – abuse of priesthood power is often referenced in scripture, especially associated with “overseers” of the temple. Something Jesus addressed specifically during his 3 year ministry.

My reference to the Book of Enoch was to put forth the possibility that there was, anciently, a civilization or civilizations technically more advanced than any civilization or civilizations of our era. For example, the possible advanced scientific ability to alter and control weather. I am not sure if you feel this possibility contradicts something given to us in our standard works scripture or not – since you made no specific or general reference, I am not sure what you intended. Feel free to be open in this matter – I may not agree but I will always consider any reference someone is interested enough to address me specifically.

Please be a little more specific when you suggest I study LAW. Are you referencing US Constitutional Law? Are you referencing more general – Western Civilization Democratic Law? Would you be addressing even more general law as it relates to modern social structures of Eastern or Western regions or Social governments of Liberal thinking like Communism or other Socialist trends? Perhaps you may be referencing religious law of the Dark or Middle ages under Catholicism? Or perhaps you may have made reference to the Ancient Near Eastern (Mediterranean) law of Kingdoms and Suzerain, Servant Vassal relationships often referenced in ancient scripture used to construct the modern Bible. (Some scholars feel the LDS priesthood structure resembles somewhat the ancient structure of kingdoms and Servant Vassal stewardships). I would be glad to discuss this topic but I think it is a little off topic for this thread.

I am bewildered why you felt my reference to the flood as a symbol of a covenant (similar to the symbol of baptism covenant) would not be based in faith or would dictate what literally did or did not take place.

Thank you again for your consideration – I look forward to your thoughts (or others) directed to these topics.

The Traveler

[jadams_4040]

I would have to disagree with Dr. Mom. True, all points of doctrine have been restored to the earth in these latter-days, but those points of doctrine were taken from each of the previous dispensations. Never has the complete gospel existed in any single dispensation previously. It's called the dispensation of the fullness of times because it IS the first dispensation with the fullness of the gospel.

Yes dr mom is correct, in that we have had other dispensations and apostasies before and this is to be the last dispensation, because it is the "fullness of times" which means...this is it.

[Abraham]

Yes dr mom is correct, in that we have had other dispensations and apostasies before and this is to be the last dispensation, because it is the "fullness of times" which means...this is it.

Hi all,

We need to remember t hat we do not know how many dispensations there have been. A dispensation is when the truth of the Lord is revealed upon the earth. If one looks at the Bible Dictionary (LDS of course) it explains the same. Many teach that a dispensation is a thousand years, which is incorrect, or that we are in the seventh or last dispensation which is only partially true, since the prophets have taught us that we are in the dispensation of the fullness of times. One more thing as alluded to above, this dispensation has never existed beofore on the earh since the fullness has not existed only in parts, that is why the prophets have and will each come to restore all the keys, so the winding up scenes can take their place in prophecy. All the keys, have never been on the earth at once until this dispensation. Makes sense, that all the keys will have to be here to be delivered to the Ancient of Days (Adam). Merry Christmas. The Gospel is so true it is hard to believe sometimes - talk to a non-memeber. hee hee

Abraham of the Chaldees

[bert10]

I would have to disagree with Dr. Mom. True, all points of doctrine have been restored to the earth in these latter-days, but those points of doctrine were taken from each of the previous dispensations. Never has the complete gospel existed in any single dispensation previously. It's called the dispensation of the fullness of times because it IS the first dispensation with the fullness of the gospel.

How could Enoch and the inhabitants of Zion be translated into heaven if they did not have the fullness of the gospel?

How come the LDS do not have columns of flame on their house at night and a column of smoke in the daytime?

And Melchizedek and Salem could they have been translated into heaven if they had not the fullness of the Gospel?

Can any beings withstand the Glory of God who is not perfected in Christ?

By answering these questions then you will know if the fulness of the gospel which is the gospel of perfection was ever on the earth.

Peace be unto you

bert10

[ztodd]

...

How come the LDS do not have columns of flame on their house at night and a column of smoke in the daytime?

...

Can any beings withstand the Glory of God who is not perfected in Christ?

...

By answering these questions then you will know if the fulness of the gospel which is the gospel of perfection was ever on the earth.

Peace be unto you

bert10

I don't understand what those two questions have to do with whether the fullness of the gospel was ever on the earth.

Also the "fullness of the gospel" as it is mentioned in the introduction to the Book of Mormon only refers to the parts of the gospel that are necessary for our salvation.

[bert10]

I don't understand what those two questions have to do with whether the fullness of the gospel was ever on the earth.

Also the "fullness of the gospel" as it is mentioned in the introduction to the Book of Mormon only refers to the parts of the gospel that are necessary for our salvation.

That may be your understanding and that of many as well. However....there is a difference between salvation and exaltation. In Zion the houses of those who became perfected in Christ had the columns of smoke in the day time and the columns of fire at night. The Angels were standing guard over each dwelling...just like when the Lord sent the angel to lead the children of ISrael in the wildeness.

The point to the post where the fruits are are the doctrines.

Peace be unto you

bert10

[Abraham]

How could Enoch and the inhabitants of Zion be translated into heaven if they did not have the fullness of the gospel?

How come the LDS do not have columns of flame on their house at night and a column of smoke in the daytime?

And Melchizedek and Salem could they have been translated into heaven if they had not the fullness of the Gospel?

Can any beings withstand the Glory of God who is not perfected in Christ?

By answering these questions then you will know if the fulness of the gospel which is the gospel of perfection was ever on the earth.

Peace be unto you

bert10

Sorry it has taken me so long to get back to you. In short there is a lot of information that was available to Enoch, and Abraham for that matter. Abraham spoke of planet we know little about in our system. It is like saying how could the Lord and Savior, grow line upon line, preceipt upon precept, here a little and there a litte if he was already perfect. And if you don't agree that he was perfect when was he imperfect and don't get complete and exalted confused here either. The fullness of the all the keys were not available so they had the fullness and knowledge and the PH they did not need us. Remember the brother of Jared received the Second Comforter back in the day.

All the best

Abraham

[Abraham]

Remember that we do not know how many dispensations there have been, (See your Bible Dictionary). I enjoyed the comments about the fullness though. It will truly be full when all the keys are restored to Adam from the ancient dispensations.

Be careful not to say this is the sixth, this is the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times, and there is a finality in that.

Abraham