The Great Apostasy

[MormonGirl02]

Hi everyone. I am struggling with some issues related to the Great Apostasy. The main thing is apostolic succession, the claim made by the Catholic Church that their bishops all go back to the apostles. They seem to have even documented how their bishops go all the way back to the apostles. How does one explain this in light of the Great Apostasy? Also, wouldn't the apostles have had some sort of plan for the church to continue rather than to let it fall into apostasy? Help!

[jwhitlock]

Two quick responses to your question.

First, there does not appear to be any documentation available that fully outlines the line of authority from Peter to the Catholic Popes. Before the fourth century, support for the line of authority in full does not exist in any manuscripts that we have. The transfer of that authority from Peter on is actually highly speculative in the Catholic Church, and the "official" version of that line by the Catholics has been created based on a number of assumptions about their history that are not verifiable.

Second, there is no evidence that the apostles "let" the Church fall into apostasy. The apostasy occurred (and was foretold) in spite of their best efforts. The overriding principle in God's dealings with us in all ages seems to be our agency - and when the people choose not to follow Him, despite efforts by His servants to keep them in the right path, He will not force them down that path.

Fortunately, God always has a contingency plan available. In this case, the gospel would be restored prior to Christ's second coming, and those who were righteous and lived during the dark times when the fullness of the gospel was not on the earth would still have the option of salvation in the life after this life. To me, at least, He has the bases fully covered.

[HiJolly]

Hi everyone. I am struggling with some issues related to the Great Apostasy. The main thing is apostolic succession, the claim made by the Catholic Church that their bishops all go back to the apostles. They seem to have even documented how their bishops go all the way back to the apostles. How does one explain this in light of the Great Apostasy? Also, wouldn't the apostles have had some sort of plan for the church to continue rather than to let it fall into apostasy? Help!

Contention is not of God, nor of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. If someone believes in a complete and direct chain of priesthood authority from Christ to the current Pope, I would not feel good about trying to dissuade them from that view. If the Spirit can't do it, neither can I. At least, not without destroying faith in Christ Himself. We should be able to defend our faith, on the basis of what we believe and the evidences for that faith. Attacking other peoples faith in order to justify our own, is not right.

Nevertheless, for you personally, I suggest learning about the life and role of Constantine , Emperor of Rome. The problem is not in the unbroken chain of Bishops. It lies in the martyrdom and loss of the apostles, IMO. The time period from 70AD to 313 (or so) AD is the time in which to look for these things.

"The conversion of a Roman emperor to Christianity, of Constantine in 312, might not have happened—or, if it had, it would have taken on a totally different meaning—if it had not been preceded, for two generations, by the conversion of Christianity to the culture and ideals of the Roman world" (Peter Brown, The World of Late Antiquity, A.D. 150-750, London and New York, 1971, p. 82).

HiJolly

[MormonGirl02]

Two quick responses to your question.

First, there does not appear to be any documentation available that fully outlines the line of authority from Peter to the Catholic Popes. Before the fourth century, support for the line of authority in full does not exist in any manuscripts that we have. The transfer of that authority from Peter on is actually highly speculative in the Catholic Church, and the "official" version of that line by the Catholics has been created based on a number of assumptions about their history that are not verifiable.

Second, there is no evidence that the apostles "let" the Church fall into apostasy. The apostasy occurred (and was foretold) in spite of their best efforts. The overriding principle in God's dealings with us in all ages seems to be our agency - and when the people choose not to follow Him, despite efforts by His servants to keep them in the right path, He will not force them down that path.

Fortunately, God always has a contingency plan available. In this case, the gospel would be restored prior to Christ's second coming, and those who were righteous and lived during the dark times when the fullness of the gospel was not on the earth would still have the option of salvation in the life after this life. To me, at least, He has the bases fully covered.

What I was referring to is that they actually have a line of bishops going back all the way to the apostles. They can actually show name by name a line of bishops going all the way back to the apostles. That is waht I was referring to. This has me deeply confused because if they the apostles ordained other men and they ordained other men and so on and so forth then the church has continued till this day. Or am I wrong? Please explain to me what I am getting wrong here.

As for whether the apostles "let" the Church fall into apostasy or not, I don't really know what to believe about that but I suppose that they probably did the best they could to keep the church alive but yet it fell into apostasy anyway.

I have no comment about your last paragraph and agree with it.

Contention is not of God, nor of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. If someone believes in a complete and direct chain of priesthood authority from Christ to the current Pope, I would not feel good about trying to dissuade them from that view. If the Spirit can't do it, neither can I. At least, not without destroying faith in Christ Himself. We should be able to defend our faith, on the basis of what we believe and the evidences for that faith. Attacking other peoples faith in order to justify our own, is not right.

Nevertheless, for you personally, I suggest learning about the life and role of Constantine , Emperor of Rome. The problem is not in the unbroken chain of Bishops. It lies in the martyrdom and loss of the apostles, IMO. The time period from 70AD to 313 (or so) AD is the time in which to look for these things.

"The conversion of a Roman emperor to Christianity, of Constantine in 312, might not have happened—or, if it had, it would have taken on a totally different meaning—if it had not been preceded, for two generations, by the conversion of Christianity to the culture and ideals of the Roman world" (Peter Brown, The World of Late Antiquity, A.D. 150-750, London and New York, 1971, p. 82).

HiJolly

Thank you for the suggestion of learning about Constantine. I will try and learn about him.

Anyway, I have another question for you all. What are some examples of the Great Apostasy? What I mean is, what are some examples of how doctrine changed from Biblical doctrines to unBiblical doctrines thereby showing that the Great Apostasy occurred that way? Thanks everyone for your help!

[HiJolly]

Anyway, I have another question for you all. What are some examples of the Great Apostasy? What I mean is, what are some examples of how doctrine changed from Biblical doctrines to unBiblical doctrines thereby showing that the Great Apostasy occurred that way? Thanks everyone for your help!

I can think of three, off the top of my head:

(1) NT scripture says it is not right to forbid to eat meat. I would assume this includes Fridays.

(2) NT scripture says not to forbid to marry. I would assume this includes priests.

(3) NT scripture says Christ set His Church up with Apostles. Can it be His Church without them?

All this and more is to be found in A Marvelous Work and a Wonder by LeGrande Richards.

HiJolly

[MormonGirl02]

I can think of three, off the top of my head:

(1) NT scripture says it is not right to forbid to eat meat. I would assume this includes Fridays.

(2) NT scripture says not to forbid to marry. I would assume this includes priests.

(3) NT scripture says Christ set His Church up with Apostles. Can it be His Church without them?

All this and more is to be found in A Marvelous Work and a Wonder by LeGrande Richards.

HiJolly

Thank you for your help HiJolly. I do appreciate it. Your help is helping me out a great deal. I also read this article:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Patristic_evidence_of_the_apostasy

and found that it helped me a great deal also. My faith in the Great Apostasy has been strengthened a great deal and I no longer have as many doubts as I had previously. Thanks to both you and jwhitlock. :)

[jwhitlock]

What I was referring to is that they actually have a line of bishops going back all the way to the apostles. They can actually show name by name a line of bishops going all the way back to the apostles. That is waht I was referring to. This has me deeply confused because if they the apostles ordained other men and they ordained other men and so on and so forth then the church has continued till this day. Or am I wrong? Please explain to me what I am getting wrong here.

You're correct in that it is the line of the bishops of Rome that exists by name, which the Catholics consider the Papal line. However, even though there is a line of authority by name, there is no documentation to support that line, which was what I was referring to.

It appears from the historical record that the bishop of Rome did not gain primacy or authority over the other bishops until the fourth century - and it was contested even after that. After the apostles died, it appears that the various bishops acted somewhat autonomously and not as a unified body or church, for at least a couple of centuries. It was only with Constantine that the process started to "unify" those autonomous congregations under the authority of the Roman Pope.

The history is actually quite fascinating and if you have an interest in early Christianity, it would be good to study it. From an LDS viewpoint, Tad Callister wrote a good book entitled "The Inevitable Apostasy" which I enjoyed. Also, Scott Petersen wrote "Where Have All the Prophets Gone?" which was excellent.

[MormonGirl02]

You're correct in that it is the line of the bishops of Rome that exists by name, which the Catholics consider the Papal line. However, even though there is a line of authority by name, there is no documentation to support that line, which was what I was referring to.

It appears from the historical record that the bishop of Rome did not gain primacy or authority over the other bishops until the fourth century - and it was contested even after that. After the apostles died, it appears that the various bishops acted somewhat autonomously and not as a unified body or church, for at least a couple of centuries. It was only with Constantine that the process started to "unify" those autonomous congregations under the authority of the Roman Pope.

The history is actually quite fascinating and if you have an interest in early Christianity, it would be good to study it. From an LDS viewpoint, Tad Callister wrote a good book entitled "The Inevitable Apostasy" which I enjoyed. Also, Scott Petersen wrote "Where Have All the Prophets Gone?" which was excellent.

Ah okay. Thank you for the book recommendations.

[Dale]

Ah okay. Thank you for the book recommendations.

Got to FAIR and go to their links section. http://www.fairlds.org Then go to Barry Bickmores website. I think its called Early Christianity and Mormonism. Barry Bickmore and Catholic apologist Steve Clifford did quite a bit of a back and forth debate. It is online to read if you are interested.

[Guest Realty Bytes]

Hi everyone. I am struggling with some issues related to the Great Apostasy. The main thing is apostolic succession, the claim made by the Catholic Church that their bishops all go back to the apostles. They seem to have even documented how their bishops go all the way back to the apostles. How does one explain this in light of the Great Apostasy? Also, wouldn't the apostles have had some sort of plan for the church to continue rather than to let it fall into apostasy? Help!

Not exactly true. The RCC cannot historically trace succession back to the apostles (Peter who is claimed to have been the 1st Bishop of Rome). Actual historical tracing can only go back to about St. Clement or so and tracing back the rest of the way is a matter of "tradition" not historical fact.

[Guest Realty Bytes]

What I was referring to is that they actually have a line of bishops going back all the way to the apostles. They can actually show name by name a line of bishops going all the way back to the apostles.

A list of names - yes. There is no evidence however that any of them were authorized by God to act on his behalf. I too could give you a list of names for whatever that is worth. Besides which, as I mentioned in the previous post, there is no actual historical evidence that the early names on the list were in fact the Bishop of Rome, especially with primacy over other bishops.

[cherisalorraine]

I have a couple of questions about The Great Apostasy also. If the people who lived during that time were not married in Gods church nor were they baptized in gods church and we as people today are not able to find written record of them then how does their work get completed and how are they able to be with Heavenly Father. I understand that people go to Temple and do their work and that people are baptized in their place but how can we find every person who needs to be found? (I will accept the phrase "it is a matter of faith" for an answer)

[HiJolly]

I have a couple of questions about The Great Apostasy also. If the people who lived during that time were not married in Gods church nor were they baptized in gods church and we as people today are not able to find written record of them then how does their work get completed and how are they able to be with Heavenly Father. I understand that people go to Temple and do their work and that people are baptized in their place but how can we find every person who needs to be found? (I will accept the phrase "it is a matter of faith" for an answer)

"it's a matter of faith" is the answer, indeed. We do know some things, though, that assist our understanding, even though they don't provide firm or complete answers.

First, those people still exist. They are in the spirit world, and they know who they are. Better still, *Heavenly Father* knows who they are.

Second, the Gospel of Jesus Christ exists in the spirit world as well, and many, many saints are engaged in 'missionary work' there.

Third, the second group can 'talk' with the first group.

Fourth, as a part of continuing revelation, the names and other necessary info concerning the first group can be communicated to members of the Church here in mortality. Perhaps in the millennium this will be more commonplace, but even now we know that the veil is sometimes quite thin, and people's temple ordinances can be performed.

That's my shot at the question. Anyone else?

HiJolly

[MorningStar]

I have a couple of questions about The Great Apostasy also. If the people who lived during that time were not married in Gods church nor were they baptized in gods church and we as people today are not able to find written record of them then how does their work get completed and how are they able to be with Heavenly Father. I understand that people go to Temple and do their work and that people are baptized in their place but how can we find every person who needs to be found? (I will accept the phrase "it is a matter of faith" for an answer)

I read in a book (I think it was The Teachings of Joseph Fielding Smith) that during the millenium, many records will be delivered to us so we can finish everyone's temple work. :)

[MorningStar]

I read in a book (I think it was The Teachings of Joseph Fielding Smith) that during the millenium, many records will be delivered to us so we can finish everyone's temple work. :)

Ok, it's actually The Way to Perfection by Joseph Fielding Smith. I don't know if it's doctrine, but here's what it says:

P. 319-320

When the Millennium comes the work will advance much faster. Of this time President Young also said: "Some of those who are not in mortality will come along and say, 'Here are a thousand names I wish you to attend to in this temple, and when you have got through with them, I will give you another thousand;' and the elders of Israel and their wives will go forth to officiate for their forefathers, the men for the men, and the women for the women." - Discourses, pp. 581-582

[cherisalorraine]

Thank you for your help! I will continue to learn as much as I can on my own but some things just take extra clarification. I hope to become a very good LDS when the time comes and I want to do things right and knowing these things will in my opinion help me grow my faith and believe even more as it is presented to me.

[drjme]

A list of names - yes. There is no evidence however that any of them were authorized by God to act on his behalf. I too could give you a list of names for whatever that is worth. Besides which, as I mentioned in the previous post, there is no actual historical evidence that the early names on the list were in fact the Bishop of Rome, especially with primacy over other bishops.

I just finished reading an article from Bruce Wydner to do with this subject and it was very interesting. this is just an excerpt and probably not for beginners.

Quote:

THE APOSTASY

These words have a lot of significance to LDS People. When I was on my Mission, 50 years ago, they were the title of the Second Lesson. In the Six Missionary Discussions, Discussion 3 is, “The Restoration.” In Discussion 3 its “Principle 2” is, “Apostasy.” The main part of “Preach My Gospel” is, “3 Study and Teach.” Therein is, “Lesson 1: The Restoration.” Addressing this Lesson as, “The Message of the Restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ,” this Lesson is divided into 8 parts. In the third part, “Heavenly Father Reveals His Gospel in Every Dispensation,” the subject of “apostasy” is spoken about. The fifth part is entitled, “The Great Apostasy.”

This subject of, “The Apostasy,” has been a way that the LDS People have introduced Investigators to the circumstances requiring The Restoration of the Gospel, in our times. As important as this subject of, “Apostasy,” has been, though, that word, “Apostasy,” is not found in the Text of any of the Scriptures of the LDS Church.

In D&C Section 85, when addressing the subject of, “the duty of the Lord’s clerk,” mention is made, in verse 2, of, “apostates who apostatize after receiving their inheritances.” And, in verse 11 mention is made of, “they” “that are found to have apostatized.” This information relates to those, in these “current” times, who “have apostatized” from the Church.

The only place in the Text of the LDS Scriptures that the word, “apostate,” is found, is in D&C 86:3. It is found in this context:

Quote:

D&C 86:2. …the apostles were the sowers of the seed;

3. And after they have fallen asleep the great persecutor of the church, the apostate, the whore, even Babylon, that maketh all nations to drink of her cup, in whose hearts the enemy, even Satan, sitteth to reign-behold he soweth the tares; wherefore, the tares choke the wheat and drive the church into the wilderness.

In relation to the “historical” “great persecutor of the church,” referred to above, reference is also made to the involvement of that “historical persecutor” in persecutions “in these current times,” as referred to in D&C 123:7:

Quote:

D&C 123:7. It is an imperative duty that we owe to God, to angels, with whom we shall be brought to stand, and also to ourselves, to our wives and children, who have been made to bow down with grief, sorrow, and care, under the most damning hand of tyranny, and oppression, supported and urged on and upheld by the influence of that spirit which hath so strongly riveted the creeds of the fathers, who have inherited lies, upon the hearts of the children, and filled the world with confusion, and has been growing stronger and stronger, and is now the very mainspring of corruption, and the whole earth groans under the weight of its iniquity.

Our Missionary Work encounters some “lies” from “that spirit which hath so strongly riveted the creeds of the fathers, who have inherited lies, upon the hearts of the children.” One of those Lies, of the Religion of the Roman Empire, was that the Apostle John really did die, instead of being translated, like the Lord told him that he would be. Without that Lie the Roman Empire Religion never would have had any theory of how to say that it had any “succession authority,” in relation to Christianity. Of course that Lie was proven to be false when the Apostle John, in his Translated Body, came to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery, with Peter and James, in their Resurrected Bodies, to confer the Keys of the Melchizedek Priesthood on Joseph and Oliver and to ordain them Apostles. And, of course, the Main Lie, of Roman Empire Religion, that was proven false by the Apostle Peter coming in his Resurrected Body to ordain Joseph and Oliver, was the Lie that that dead body, at the bottom of the hole around which the Vatican Building was built, which was “advertised” to the World as being “the dead body of the Apostle Peter,” and that it is the “Connection” of Roman Empire Religion to the Authority to rule Christianity, is only the Lie that the Resurrected Peter proved it to be.

In relation to the mortality of the other Apostles, other than John the Revelator, fulfilling their callings, in D&C 86:2-3. the Lord says: “2. … the apostles were the sowers of the seed; 3. And after they have fallen asleep …”

So, because of those “lies,” - by Roman Empire Religion, that have been in the “strongly riveted creeds of the fathers, who have inherited lies …” that are the way that “the children” of those “fathers, who have inherited lies,” who are the Christian Populations of the World, relate to general concepts about Christianity - our Missionaries are not able to “begin” our Conversations with our Investigators talking about the Translated John the Revelator and the Resurrected Peter. We try to get to their coming to restore the Priesthood as soon as we can. But, at the beginning, all that we can talk about to the general Christian Population (or to other Populations around the World who have heard about Christianity) is that with the end of the Ministries of the Apostles, that which we Mormons CALL, “THE APOSTASY,” began.

Once a positive commencement with Investigators has been begun, with introductory information, in order for our Missionaries to, not too long thereafter, be able to plainly present the powerful significance of the Restoration of the Fulness of the Gospel, it has been the procedure of our Church to present Investigators with information in relation to The Apostasy.

refer to scriptures:

#

3 Ne. 28: 4-7

4 And when he had spoken unto them, he turned himself unto the three, and said unto them: What will ye that I should do unto you, when I am gone unto the Father?

5 And they sorrowed in their hearts, for they durst not speak unto him the thing which they desired.

6 And he said unto them: Behold, I know your thoughts, and ye have desired the thing which John, my beloved, who was with me in my ministry, before that I was lifted up by the Jews, desired of me.

7 Therefore, more blessed are ye, for ye shall never taste of death; but ye shall live to behold all the doings of the Father unto the children of men, even until all things shall be fulfilled according to the will of the Father, when I shall come in my glory with the powers of heaven.

#

D&C 7: 1-3

1 And the Lord said unto me: John, my beloved, what desirest thou? For if you shall ask what you will, it shall be granted unto you.

2 And I said unto him: Lord, give unto me power over death, that I may live and bring souls unto thee.

3 And the Lord said unto me: Verily, verily, I say unto thee, because thou desirest this thou shalt tarry until I come in my glory, and shalt prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues and people.

#

D&C 76: 15-17

15 For while we were doing the work of translation, which the Lord had appointed unto us, we came to the twenty-ninth verse of the fifth chapter of John, which was given unto us as follows—

16 Speaking of the resurrection of the dead, concerning those who shall hear the voice of the Son of Man:

17 And shall come forth; they who have done good, in the resurrection of the just; and they who have done evil, in the resurrection of the unjust.

#

John 21: 22-23

22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.

23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

[palabras_ardientes]

One of the great things about this is it isn't just the LDS scholars who will cite evidences for this. In any Western Civilization Class you will study and learn about it firsthand. You will learn about how the Bishops who were left after the apostles died and were killed could not even agree on the doctrines they espoused. There were no authoritative guides to teach them as before. Another evidence of this is Constantine, as was mentioned earlier. The fact that an outside Emperor had to come in and get the "leaders" of the church together to debate the nature of God is an indicator of the state of that church. The Nicene Creed was a consensus that tried to cater to all different viewpoints. It wasn't a firm declaration of doctrine. Try to read that and then say that they were guided by revelation from the Almighty. Then the dark ages. If the apostolic succession had continued, then why did politics consume the Papacy? Why did the Pope turn a blind eye to the selling of indulgences and simony(selling church offices and forgiveness to the highest bidder)?

There were good men, and truly devout men, but there's a reason they refer to that time as the "Dark Ages". The light of revelation was not there, and because of that mankind has now gotten used to the idea that there is no more revelation. We have received the guidance God wanted to give us and now He is leaving it up to us to navigate our way through the scriptures and the doctrines? I don't think so. Even if you did nothing more than look at the organization, you would see the tie between the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the New Testament organization. We actually have apostles, that bear the name Apostle. We have the seventy, we have bishops, we have patriarchs, etc. Ephesians 4 is one of my favorite chapters about this. It tells you that Christ appointed these offices unto His people in the church. It tells you why He thought these offices were necessary, and it tells you how long they will be needed.

I agree that you should study about both, and be entirely open-minded about both, but more importantly, keep an open heart as you search. The final confirmations will not come from man, but from the Holy Ghost. There are good things in all faiths. You could go to almost any church and feel the Spirit testify of a gospel truth. But there is, as Christ's servants stated in New Testament times, "One Lord, one faith, one baptism." There are so many witnesses out there. I know you'll find what you're looking for.

[Still_Small_Voice]

Thank you for your help! I will continue to learn as much as I can on my own but some things just take extra clarification. I hope to become a very good LDS when the time comes and I want to do things right and knowing these things will in my opinion help me grow my faith and believe even more as it is presented to me.

Here is some official doctrine of the Church in the Gospel Principles Manual:

Chapter 44: The Millennium

"Many people have died without receiving these ordinances. People on the earth must perform these ordinances for them. This work is now being done in the temples of the Lord. There is too much work to finish before the Millennium begins, so it will be completed during that time. Resurrected beings will help us correct the mistakes we have made in doing research concerning our dead ancestors. They will also help us find the information we need to complete our records."

[Garden Girl]

The great work of the millennium will be the work of temple ordinances. The work started since the ordinances were given through the Prophet Joseph will continue in the millennium. Connecting the chain of the human family... it is important for us to do as much of the work as we can during this dispensation of the fullness of times. Temples will dot the land(s). When I was sealed to my parents in 1954, there were 8 temples operating... Today there are over 120 here and around the world. And more being built...

The Garden Girl

[Abraham]

The great work of the millennium will be the work of temple ordinances. The work started since the ordinances were given through the Prophet Joseph will continue in the millennium. Connecting the chain of the human family... it is important for us to do as much of the work as we can during this dispensation of the fullness of times. Temples will dot the land(s). When I was sealed to my parents in 1954, there were 8 temples operating... Today there are over 120 here and around the world. And more being built...

The Garden Girl

Don't forget the Pope was excommuncated (the Roman Pope ex'd the Pope in Avignon, and vice versa) so neither has any right of succession. Just a fun historical fact. Also remember that the creeds adoptoed by men were not even found in the early Christian Church but were loosely embraced (becasue no one could understand them) 300 years AD. The US has not even existed that long, and so you can see how long it was before the idol worshipper Constantine CLAIMED one religion out of political expediency. Don't worry so much about the alleged chain of Bishop to bishop look at the fruits of their contradictory (and I like to say diametriallcy opposed doctrine which has to be diobolically opposed doctrie as well). It in infinitely more about confirmation from the Spirit and less about the genealogies. Always remember that Satan will have his near-perfect imitation set to confuse and befuddle man and woman.

Warm regards,

Abraham

[Traveler]

Hi everyone. I am struggling with some issues related to the Great Apostasy. The main thing is apostolic succession, the claim made by the Catholic Church that their bishops all go back to the apostles. They seem to have even documented how their bishops go all the way back to the apostles. How does one explain this in light of the Great Apostasy? Also, wouldn't the apostles have had some sort of plan for the church to continue rather than to let it fall into apostasy? Help!

I do not understand your struggle - the New Testament (Book of Acts - as well as the apostle Paul) indicate that the intent was to have a succession of Apostles; thus showing the Apostolic plan of succession. The succession claimed by the Catholic Church is, without question to any one that has reviewed history, not a succession of Apostles but a succession of Bishops.

The plan to maintain the structure of Priest overseeing covenants being lost in history is nothing new. By the time of Christ the Levites had been mostly replaced by the Pharisees that date back to Jonathan Maccabeus killing off the established Levite Priests governing the Jews about 174 BC and establishing his own variety.

The Traveler

[jadams_4040]

Hi everyone. I am struggling with some issues related to the Great Apostasy. The main thing is apostolic succession, the claim made by the Catholic Church that their bishops all go back to the apostles. They seem to have even documented how their bishops go all the way back to the apostles. How does one explain this in light of the Great Apostasy? Also, wouldn't the apostles have had some sort of plan for the church to continue rather than to let it fall into apostasy? Help!

Well actually when the catholic church declared there succesor to divinity as the heir apparent, there was one little teenie tiny thing wrong! the the previous prophet was still alive and doing his job. So "Without" authority the churchs succesion gos forth to this day.

[DrewM]

Well actually when the catholic church declared there succesor to divinity as the heir apparent, there was one little teenie tiny thing wrong! the the previous prophet was still alive and doing his job. So "Without" authority the churchs succesion gos forth to this day.

There is nothing in or out of scripture that indicates the Bishops were to be the successors of the Apostles. You got that one right, my friend!

[HiJolly]

Here is an interesting article about apostacy that I just ran across. FYI.

HiJolly