The Holocaust

[muirtle]

I was just wondering if the church had a stance on this subject because I have heard some people say that the holocaust was punishment. I don't understand that because would that not be them getting punishment for somebody else's sin. I am not sure what scripture it is in the book of mormon that says something about there kids being punished

[Moksha]

I remember hearing people muttering some absurdity about Hurricane Katrina and the attack on the World Trade Center towers being Divine retribution as well. Makes me think they had a very harsh view of God. Natural Disasters have been occuring since the dawn of time. Man-made disasters are just that: man-made.

Edited to make sense...

[NeuroTypical]

I was just wondering if the church had a stance on this subject because I have heard some people say that the holocaust was punishment.

I've never heard anyone in the church, low or high, talk about the holocaust as anything other than a tremendous evil brought about by the Nazis.

And some of the things that I see happening in the world like the Holocaust are only explainable by a manifest evil force...

- Elder Oaks Interview from PBS Documentary

The mass-murders of the twentieth century are among the bloodiest crimes ever committed against humanity. We can hardly comprehend the magnitude of the Nazi holocaust murders of over five million Jews in Europe, Stalin’s purges and labor camps that killed five to ten million in the Soviet Union, and the two to three million noncombatants who were killed or who died of hunger in the Biafran War.

All of these slaughters, and others like them, were rooted in the ancient wickedness Satan taught—that a man could murder to get gain.

- Elder Oaks, World Peace, May 1990 Ensign

Hope this helps.

LM

[MorningStar]

I agree. The Holocaust was evil and as far as I know our church leaders all thought it was evil. Which it was.

[muirtle]

Thanks I agree all the way I have just been in some arguments with people about it and wanted some stuff to say to help with my point.

[Traveler]

I was just wondering if the church had a stance on this subject because I have heard some people say that the holocaust was punishment. I don't understand that because would that not be them getting punishment for somebody else's sin. I am not sure what scripture it is in the book of mormon that says something about there kids being punished

There has been some thought that in the last days the Jews are under divine covenant and commandment to gather - Just as Ephraim will gather – so will Judah – (See Ezekiel).

A common theme in the Book of Mormon is that those that reject G-d counsel and protection will suffer for their error. Some have suggested that the Jews might have avoided the holocaust by being more eager to obey. It is possible to that this is a warning to others that reject G-d. (See Book of Mormon – 2Nephi chapter1)

The Traveler

[dachosen1]

I was just wondering if the church had a stance on this subject because I have heard some people say that the holocaust was punishment. I don't understand that because would that not be them getting punishment for somebody else's sin. I am not sure what scripture it is in the book of mormon that says something about there kids being punished

The Holocaust was punishment to the tribe of Judah for rejecting and crucifying christ. This is their curse. Look at the state of Israel right now. They are the most persecuted country in the world. The Jews will continue to be persecuted until Christ himself comes and saves them during the Battle of Armaggedon.

[Guest HEthePrimate]

God is not a punishing sort of person--this is the whole point of the Gospel. The Holocaust was an evil work of men.

I was going to say that people who claim the Holocaust was a punishment are bigots, but then I realized that would be uncharitable. It is possible that they simply have a hard time accepting that human beings can be so evil as to perpetrate a crime as horrific as the Holocaust, and so they blame it on supernatural forces. But the fact is, yes, people do do things that bad.

DH

[MorningStar]

The Holocaust was punishment to the tribe of Judah for rejecting and crucifying christ. This is their curse. Look at the state of Israel right now. They are the most persecuted country in the world. The Jews will continue to be persecuted until Christ himself comes and saves them during the Battle of Armaggedon.

No, the Holocaust was not "punishment" to the Jews. You make it sound like God approved that terrible evil. He did not.

[dachosen1]

No, the Holocaust was not "punishment" to the Jews. You make it sound like God approved that terrible evil. He did not.

The Bible and Book of Mormon state that the Jews and Lamanites will be smitten and scattered. Christ himself said this will happen to Israel because of their unbelief in him. The Holocaust was part of it. Look what happened to the Native Americans(lamanites). The white man came and wiped them out thru wars, genocide, and diseases. These 2 groups continue to get persecuted and smitten until Christ comes. Whether we like it or not this is the way it is backed by scripture.

Israelite,

You need to provide some evidence for your assertion that the Holocaust was part of the "smitten and scattered" clause.

Simply pointing to isolated scriptural texts and saying "See?" isn't going to cut it.

People have been "decrypting" the Scriptures and drawing parallels to their own times since long before the ink was dry.

That's the same kind of logic that produces the "Jesus is coming next Thursday"-type pronouncements every couple of years.

Unless you have some kind of prophetic authority to make such pronouncements, you have nothing but your own opinions and interpretations to go on.

Please......add some substance to your posts and knock of the holier-than-thou pronouncements.

Honos

[DrewM]

The Bible and Book of Mormon state that the Jews and Lamanites will be smitten and scattered. Christ himself said this will happen to Israel because of their unbelief in him. The Holocaust was part of it. Look what happened to the Native Americans(lamanites). The white man came and wiped them out thru wars, genocide, and diseases. These 2 groups continue to get persecuted and smitten until Christ comes. Whether we like it or not this is the way it is backed by scripture.

I don't know that God condones such behavior as the Holocaust, approves it, or causes it to happen. However, we all can agree that He clearly allowed it.

[Honos]

I don't know that God condones such behavior as the Holocaust, approves it, or causes it to happen. However, we all can agree that He clearly allowed it.

I lean more towards "suffered" than "allowed". "Allowed", IMO, suggests that he might have done something about it but couldn't be bothered. We do know, however, that God will not interfere with human agency. He might have suffered it to happen, but there is no reason to believe he ordained, orchestrated, or condoned it.

[DrewM]

I lean more towards "suffered" than "allowed". "Allowed", IMO, suggests that he might have done something about it but couldn't be bothered. We do know, however, that God will not interfere with human agency. He might have suffered it to happen, but there is no reason to believe he ordained, orchestrated, or condoned it.

Thanks for clarifying. I really don't see much of a different between "suffer"

and "allow" but the point is well taken, God didn't condone the act.

"Suffer the children to come unto me."

[MorningStar]

Exactly. I'm sure He despised it. I can't believe the cruelty some people inflicted on others.

[DrewM]

Exactly. I'm sure He despised it. I can't believe the cruelty some people inflicted on others.

One thing is sure, God always has an eternal perspective while we don't. He'll make up the difference for all the suffering anyone goes through that isn't deserved.

[Guest Seraphim]

The church condemns the Holocaust. I want everyone reading this thread to know the position of the church.

Elder Dallin H. Oaks said:

The mass-murders of the twentieth century are among the bloodiest crimes ever committed against humanity. We can hardly comprehend the magnitude of the Nazi holocaust murders of over five million Jews in Europe, Stalin’s purges and labor camps that killed five to ten million in the Soviet Union, and the two to three million noncombatants who were killed or who died of hunger in the Biafran War. (See Isidor Walliman and Michael N. Dobkowski, eds., Genocide and the Modern Age, New York: Greenwood Press, 1987, p. 46; The Nation, 6 Mar. 1989, p. 294, 7/14 Aug. 1989, p. 154.)

All of these slaughters, and others like them, were rooted in the ancient wickedness Satan taught—that a man could murder to get gain. (See Moses 5:31.) The mass-murderers of this century killed to acquire property and to secure power over others.

Through the prophet Moses, the Lord God of Israel commanded:

“Thou shalt not kill.

“Thou shalt not commit adultery.

“Thou shalt not steal.

“Thou shalt not bear false witness. …

“Thou shalt not covet.” (Ex. 20:13–17.)

Obedience to these commandments, which are the bedrock moral foundation for all Christians and Jews, would have prevented the greatest tragedies of this century.

Israelite: We will not allow the church to be misrepresented on this issue and we expect accuracy from church members on this board.

Seraphim

[dachosen1]

The church condemns the Holocaust. I want everyone reading this thread to know the position of the church.

Elder Dallin H. Oaks said:

Israelite: We will not allow the church to be misrepresented on this issue and we expect accuracy from church members on this board.

Seraphim

Seraphim,

I concure with that statement. I'm glad we condone it but at the same time this happaned because of the wickedness of Israel. There is a pattern here to look at. The tribe of Judah has been driven, smitten and lost their homeland until after WW2. The state of Israel is the most persecuted country in the world. The Native Americans(Joseph) went thru the same thing in America. They went thru a genocide and they also lost their lands. All of this has happened to them because they rejected Christ. Just think if they didn't do that. They would be sitting pretty good right now.

[tubaloth]

I do have to agree there is a fine line here. (and maybe that’s why the question was asked).

I was just wondering if the church had a stance on this subject because I have heard some people say that the holocaust was punishment.

That could be, and it couldn’t be. We don’t know! IF you read Elder Oak’s talk that’s about it on the matter. It does seem a little far fetched to think this.

But the bigger question and the bigger topic is that God does punish those who do wrong. HOW God does this is His own type of punishment, but we can’t just sit here and say that God doesn’t do any of this (punishment for those things done wrong).

In the D&C we realize that those that fight against the Lords Servants get punished for it to some extent. (how bad we don’t know)

(Doctrine and Covenants 121:16-25.)

16 Cursed are all those that shall lift up the heel against mine anointed, saith the Lord, and cry they have sinned when they have not sinned before me, saith the Lord, but have done that which was meet in mine eyes, and which I commanded them.

17 But those who cry transgression do it because they are the servants of sin, and are the children of disobedience themselves.

18 And those who swear falsely against my servants, that they might bring them into bondage and death—

19 Wo unto them; because they have offended my little ones they shall be severed from the ordinances of mine house.

20 Their basket shall not be full, their houses and their barns shall perish, and they themselves shall be despised by those that flattered them.

21 They shall not have right to the priesthood, nor their posterity after them from generation to generation.

22 It had been better for them that a millstone had been hanged about their necks, and they drowned in the depth of the sea.

23 Wo unto all those that discomfort my people, and drive, and murder, and testify against them, saith the Lord of Hosts; a generation of vipers shall not escape the damnation of hell.

24 Behold, mine eyes see and know all their works, and I have in reserve a swift judgment in the season thereof, for them all;

25 For there is a time appointed for every man, according as his works shall be.

Now how bad this is compared to the holocaust, who knows. But the fact remands God can punish who ever he wants to! I actually heard (and this is probably more of a rumor) that a lot of people that persecuted the Saints in the early days, suffered during the civil war. If that’s true I don’t know!

Actually one of the principles of Faith (From the Lectures on faith) is that God is a God of Justice and Judgment. That those who do wrong against his servants well be punished for it. (in this life or the next)

14. It is also of equal importance that men should have the idea of the existence of the attribute judgment in God, so they may exercise faith in him for life and salvation. For without the idea of the existence of this attribute in the Deity, it would be impossible for men to exercise faith in him for life and salvation, seeing that it is through the exercise of this attribute that the faithful in Christ Jesus are delivered out of the hands of those who seek their destruction. For if God were not to come out in swift judgment against the workers of iniquity and the powers of darkness, his saints could not be saved; for it is by judgment that the Lord delivers his saints out of the hands of all their enemies and those who reject the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. But no sooner is the idea of the existence of this attribute planted in the minds of men than it gives power to their minds for the exercise of faith and confidence in God. They are thus enabled by faith to lay hold on the promises which are set before them and to wade through all the tribulations and afflictions to which they are subjected by reason of the persecution from those who know not God and obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. They believe that in due time the Lord will come out in swift judgment against their enemies, who shall be cut off from before him, and that in his own due time he will bear them off conquerors, and more than conquerors, in all things.

(Larry E. Dahl and Charles D. Tate, Jr., eds., The Lectures on Faith in Historical Perspective [Provo: BYU Religious Studies Center, 1990], 78 - 79.)

I remember hearing people muttering some absurdity about Hurricane Katrina and the attack on the World Trade Center towers being Divine retribution as well. Makes me think they had a very harsh view of God. Natural Disasters have been occuring since the dawn of time. Man-made disasters are just that: man-made.

This is true also! But there are times God has to do something that wake us up! Because we really are slow and dumb sometimes.

(Helaman 12:1-3.)

1 And thus we can behold how false, and also the unsteadiness of the hearts of the children of men; yea, we can see that the Lord in his great infinite goodness doth bless and prosper those who put their trust in him.

2 Yea, and we may see at the very time when he doth prosper his people, yea, in the increase of their fields, their flocks and their herds, and in gold, and in silver, and in all manner of precious things of every kind and art; sparing their lives, and delivering them out of the hands of their enemies; softening the hearts of their enemies that they should not declare wars against them; yea, and in fine, doing all things for the welfare and happiness of his people; yea, then is the time that they do harden their hearts, and do forget the Lord their God, and do trample under their feet the Holy One—yea, and this because of their ease, and their exceedingly great prosperity.

3 And thus we see that except the Lord doth chasten his people with many afflictions, yea, except he doth visit them with death and with terror, and with famine and with all manner of pestilence, they will not remember him.

I’m not saying God IS behind these awful things, but there are times when God does have to do something to get us to remember Him!

[Guest Iggy]

Seraphim,

I'm glad we genocide and they also lost their lands. All of this has happened to them because they rejected Christ. Just think if they didn't do that. They would be sitting pretty good right now.

israelite I think you mean condemn not condone. Here is the defination of condone.

con·done /kənˈdoʊn/

–verb (used with object), -doned, -don·ing. 1. to disregard or overlook (something illegal, objectionable, or the like).

2. to give tacit approval to: By his silence, he seemed to condone their behavior.

3. to pardon or forgive (an offense); excuse.

4. to cause the condonation of.

5. Law. to forgive or act so as to imply forgiveness of (a violation of the marriage vow).

You are using the wrong word here also - Genocide means: The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group. The Native Americans have not been entirely exterminated! Get your facts correct.

Also why do you ingnore the Mods? Where are your references to back up your claims?

[NeuroTypical]

I'm glad we condone it but at the same time this happaned because of the wickedness of Israel.

...

All of this has happened to them because they rejected Christ.

Israelite, I echo the mod's request that you CITE YOUR SOURCE. You've mentioned the scriptures about the Lord smiting and scattering Israel. It's a huge leap of irrationality to assume that means God gave them the holocaust to punish them.

I reject your interpretation of scripture.

I reject the notion that the Holocaust happened because of Israel's wickedness.

I reject the notion that the Holocaust happened because the Jews rejected Christ.

Israelite, if your opinion is based on something besides what you've already posted, I urge you to tell us about it. Because I wholeheartedly reject your opinion as it stands now.

LM