Are Non Lds "christians" Christian?

[MorningStar]

Are you certain you would know?

Yes, because they talk about Jesus being resurrected. :)

[Guest Delmar]

Joseph said nothing of the sort. Heavenly Father did here is the quote.

The bold part is emphasis on my part. It kinda goes with my post above that those that go around trying to condemn people are denying Gods power to Judge us solely.

Bump Delmar can you please comment on this. You put it out there and I would be interested to know how you feel with the answer given.

Oh sorry! when I asked if "it is true that Joseph Smith attacked (all other) "Christian churches" and said they were all an abomination?" I guess it looked like I was being accusatory. I didn't mean to be. I was simply taking a statement that someone I know said and asking if it was true. I do think you correctly identified where this accusation came from and demonstrated it not to be accurate. If I understand the Smith quote correctly he was basically saying that he could not join a church who's doctrines were all messed up. While it is true that I don't agree with Mormon doctrine, I do most heartily agree with Mr Smith's point. There is a lot of man made doctrine in the Christian church!

[Guest Delmar]

Here in Alabama, most people are either Methodist or Baptist. I've also never met a member of a United Methodist church who didn't believe in the resurrection.

For them, if they don't have the resurrection to believe in, what else is left for them? Evangelists have to believe in the resurrection or they have absolutely no steam for their beliefs. It would be very depressing to think that He wasn't resurrected, wouldn't you agree? What would be the point of them even going to a Christian church if the Christian belief wasn't even there? Without the resurrection, how would someone believe he was the Christ? And without believing He was the Christ, how would they believe they had salvation? And without believing that they could be saved....... Now what a terrible thought THAT is. I mean, we ARE talking about a church who believes that without knowing Christ is your Lord and Savior, you'll suffer hellfire for all eternity.

Well I am glad that you can confirm that the Methodists who deny the resurrection are not in the majority.

[Still_Small_Voice]

As the Apostle Paul taught about the resurrection of Jesus:

I Corinthians Chapter 15

12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

[Guest Delmar]

As the Apostle Paul taught about the resurrection of Jesus:

I Corinthians Chapter 15

12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

Amen!

[Dale]

I ran into an United Methodist that reaffirmed his belief in the virgin birth and resurrection. But he acknowledged his church was in need of some reform. That he was choosing to stay a member and work towards reform from within. That he would watch what happens in the next United Methodist church conference.

A small number of person's can upset a lot of person's if they can get a change through conference. But it doesn't sound as if official United Methodist doctrine has been changed regarding the resurrection. But the denomination is not giving telling those who deny the virgin birth, or resurrection to hit the road. It sounds like they are remaining members in good standing. I may be wrong, but it seem's to me none of these wayward methodists are undergoing any disciplinary action for denying official doctrine.

[Guest Delmar]

I ran into an United Methodist that reaffirmed his belief in the virgin birth and resurrection. But he acknowledged his church was in need of some reform. That he was choosing to stay a member and work towards reform from within. That he would watch what happens in the next United Methodist church conference.

A small number of person's can upset a lot of person's if they can get a change through conference. But it doesn't sound as if official United Methodist doctrine has been changed regarding the resurrection. But the denomination is not giving telling those who deny the virgin birth, or resurrection to hit the road. It sounds like they are remaining members in good standing. I may be wrong, but it seem's to me none of these wayward methodists are undergoing any disciplinary action for denying official doctrine.

How would the Latter Day Saints respond to a Pastor in their midst who denied the resurrection?

[DrewM]

How would the Latter Day Saints respond to a Pastor in their midst who denied the resurrection?

For one, our pastors are all lay ministers. They must affirm these things before being assigned as pastors (We call them bishops, usually). If they were to teach false doctrine such as that Jesus wasn't resurrected, they would be released from their assignment. If they continue teaching false doctrine, they may be excommunicated.

[Guest Delmar]

For one, our pastors are all lay ministers. They must affirm these things before being assigned as pastors (We call them bishops, usually). If they were to teach false doctrine such as that Jesus wasn't resurrected, they would be released from their assignment. If they continue teaching false doctrine, they may be excommunicated.

That's appropriate.

[Guest Delmar]

That's appropriate.

is it true that Mormons believe that Jesus did not always exsist?

is it true that Mormons believe that god has a wife, who is Jesus heavenly mother?

Does God have more than one wife?

[DrewM]

is it true that Mormons believe that Jesus did not always exsist?

No. We accept the statements of John 1:1 as well as many other scriptures that say Jesus has always existed.

is it true that Mormons believe that god has a wife, who is Jesus heavenly mother?

Yes.

Does God have more than one wife?

Maybe, maybe not. We don't know.

[Guest Delmar]

No. We accept the statements of John 1:1 as well as many other scriptures that say Jesus has always existed.

Yes.

Maybe, maybe not. We don't know.

If Jesus always existed, how could he have a heavenly mother?

[Daniel]

If Jesus always existed, how could he have a heavenly mother?

How could he have an earthly mother? You seem to want to limit Heavenly Fathers power. Also I have a feeling where you are going with this, so where in Mormon Doctrine does it say there is a Heavenly Mother. What are the implications if she did exist? If marriage and families is ordained by God why couldn't Heavenly Father set the example and have a wife himself?

[HiJolly]

is it true that Mormons believe that Jesus did not always exsist?

is it true that Mormons believe that god has a wife, who is Jesus heavenly mother?

Does God have more than one wife?

The number three is really special. You've just asked three very good questions --- questions that get into the mysteries of Heaven, and are not answered easily unless you understand how we believe in the 'big picture'. And even then, understanding is certainly not guaranteed.

We believe that Jesus always existed, yes. But we also believe that you, your mom, and everyone else has ALSO existed forever, ie, eternally. Now, obviously, we are continually changing in our age, appearance, levels of understanding and knowledge and so forth. But that's only what we see in the physical. Most Christians agree that Jesus was God before He was born, right? So I don't think this is a foreign a thought as some might suppose.

We believe that we are each basically composed of three elements: intelligence, spirit body, and physical body. The intelligence is eternal and co-existent with God. The spirit body was made for us by Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother. Some have speculated on how this was done, I don't think that's a fruitful or useful exercise. I don't know how it was done, and don't particularly think is important to know. Some people who oppose the LDS faith like to use some comments made in the past to make us look really weird. <sigh> Anyway, so then we had our own earthly fathers and mothers with gave us physical life, as it says in the NT.

Heb. 12: 9

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

For Q #2, yes, that is our belief. We believe that Heaven is the pattern for earth life. Families here, families there. That's one reason we prefer to call God 'Heavenly Father'.

Q#3, He hasn't told me. I don't know. Another one of those subjects where early Church members speculated a lot. I think there are a lot of surprises for us, when we cross over into Heaven. This could be one of them. I don't really care, I love God and whatever is good with Him, is good with me.

HiJolly

[Guest Delmar]

The number three is really special. You've just asked three very good questions --- questions that get into the mysteries of Heaven, and are not answered easily unless you understand how we believe in the 'big picture'. And even then, understanding is certainly not guaranteed.

We believe that Jesus always existed, yes. But we also believe that you, your mom, and everyone else has ALSO existed forever, ie, eternally.

Is that spelled out in the Book of Mormon? If not where does the belief, that we existed before birth come from?

Now, obviously, we are continually changing in our age, appearance, levels of understanding and knowledge and so forth. But that's only what we see in the physical. Most Christians agree that Jesus was God before He was born, right? So I don't think this is a foreign a thought as some might suppose.

We believe that we are each basically composed of three elements: intelligence, spirit body, and physical body. The intelligence is eternal and co-existent with God. The spirit body was made for us by Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother. Some have speculated on how this was done, I don't think that's a fruitful or useful exercise. I don't know how it was done, and don't particularly think is important to know. Some people who oppose the LDS faith like to use some comments made in the past to make us look really weird. <sigh> Anyway, so then we had our own earthly fathers and mothers with gave us physical life, as it says in the NT.

Heb. 12: 9

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

For Q #2, yes, that is our belief. We believe that Heaven is the pattern for earth life. Families here, families there. That's one reason we prefer to call God 'Heavenly Father'.

Q#3, He hasn't told me. I don't know. Another one of those subjects where early Church members speculated a lot. I think there are a lot of surprises for us, when we cross over into Heaven. This could be one of them. I don't really care, I love God and whatever is good with Him, is good with me.

HiJolly

[avatar4321]

I really dislike trying to claim people are true or fake Christians. just because someone is bad and does bad doesnt mean they arent a professed Christian. It just means they have alot of work to do. And we have an obligation to help them live the Christian standard. I think too often people try saying that someone else isnt a true Christian so they can separate themselves from the person. They do so to try to keep from being responsible for the other.

But Christianity is all about helping others and being responsible for them. Its all about lifting them up and bringing them closer to us not farther away.

Anyone who wishes to follow Christ, I will gladly call a Christian and help them in their endevour.

[HiJolly]

Is that spelled out in the Book of Mormon? If not where does the belief, that we existed before birth come from?

Well, not any better than it is in the Bible, anyway. Most thoughts along these lines came through modern revelation. The Church is built on the concept of continuing revelation, that the heavens are open to man, that god uses prophets today just as he always has.

HiJolly

[MorningStar]

If Jesus always existed, how could he have a heavenly mother?

Because she's always existed too.

[Guest Delmar]

Well, not any better than it is in the Bible, anyway. Most thoughts along these lines came through modern revelation. The Church is built on the concept of continuing revelation, that the heavens are open to man, that god uses prophets today just as he always has.

HiJolly

So can I assume there are writings where it spells out what the prophets have said about this? where can I find it confirmed that all people have always existed? How can this be reconciled with an ever expanding population?

[Pa Pa]

I was listening to Glenn Beck from yesterday's show and he was ranting about Mike Huckabee saying that Mormons are not "Christian enough". It got me wondering. Do most Mormons consider non Mormon "Christians" to be Christian?

I do...when they are faithful to the commandments of Christ as they understand them. Also any "Christian" who pays tithing is blessed the same a Mormon tithe payers.

[HiJolly]

So can I assume there are writings where it spells out what the prophets have said about this? where can I find it confirmed that all people have always existed? How can this be reconciled with an ever expanding population?

The doctrine of the Church are contained in three sources: The Standard Works, or scriptures (Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine & Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price); The official declarations and proclamations of the Church; and the Articles of Faith. A few of these touch gently on this principle of our eternal existence, yet for the most part this is considered a mystery or 'meat' of the Gospel (see these:

1 Cor. 3: 2

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it,

neither yet now are ye able.

Heb. 5: 12

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again

which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need

of milk, and not of strong meat.

D&C 19: 22

22 For they cannot bear meat now, but milk they must receive; wherefore, they must not

know these things, lest they perish. )

I realize no one likes to be told they need the milk first; yet it is a true, Biblical teaching concerning the mysteries. I also know that in saying this, I am retreating a bit from what the LDS like to view as 'clear Gospel principles' -- nevertheless, the clear fact is, that the scripture, both Bible and Book of Mormon, state that God is eternal:

"there is a God in heaven, who is infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting the same unchangeable God" (D&C 20:17).

"[The] Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end" (D&C 20:28).

"Behold, I am the Lord God Almighty, and Endless is my name; for I am without beginning of days or end of years; and is not this endless?" (Moses 1:3).

"For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity" (Moroni 8:18).

This, then, is Mormon Doctrine. Our beliefs concerning the eternal nature of man, are justified in scripture as well, though not as clearly. The clarity which causes us to declare our belief that all men are eternal are not strictly doctrinal, though the typical LDS member will rarely ever say so explicitly, since it is an accepted teaching, culturally speaking, within the Church. Here is a interesting web site that speaks to this topic: http://ldsfocuschrist.blogspot.com/2007/04...-discourse.html

As is clear in the disclaimer of this message board, this opinion is my own, and I do NOT speak for the Church.

HiJolly

[Still_Small_Voice]

Is that spelled out in the Book of Mormon? If not where does the belief, that we existed before birth come from?

The teachings are not very clear in the Bible of a pre-mortal life, but there are a few verses that touch on the subject.

Jeremiah chapter 1

4 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Ecclesiastes chapter 12

7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Job chapter 38

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

[ztodd]

Hi Delmar- http://ldsfaq.byu.edu/ is a good place to find answers to questions like these.

Note: these are not the basic fundamental doctrine questions you should start with - there are different places to start if you really want to understand the teachings and doctrine of the church, like here - http://www.lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg/menu...000176f620a____ and by reading the book of mormon.

1. In the premortal life, Jesus Christ, whose main title was Jehovah, was the firstborn spirit child of God the Father. Prior to being born as spirits, we believe we all existed in another form as "intelligences", and there is indication that the intelligence dwelling in each person is coeternal with God. It always existed and never was created or made.

2. Yes, it has been taught that we have a heavenly mother. Basically nothing is known about her.

3. The church has no official doctrine or teaching on this. Anything you might hear about this is just speculation.

If you know anything of our church, you should know we are based on continuing revelation. We don't ever claim that God has spoken His final word. We remain open to further light and knowledge that He will yet reveal. In my view, He has already revealed a lot - a lot more than many are ready for. Many people refuse to start with the basic fundamentals and want to dive in to these deeper doctrines that they're not ready to understand. I recommend that you start back at the beginning and don't worry so much about getting answers to all these off the wall questions that critics of the church like to bring up. The answers to the deeper questions are not pertinent to the salvation of the average member of the church, and especially not to those who are not yet members of the church.

[ztodd]

So can I assume there are writings where it spells out what the prophets have said about this? where can I find it confirmed that all people have always existed? How can this be reconciled with an ever expanding population?

http://ldsfaq.byu.edu/view.asp?q=183 :

There is indeed indication that the intelligence dwelling in each person is coeternal with God. It always existed and never was created or made (D&C 93:29)

Reconciling with ever increasing population - from Pearl of Great Price, Moses ch 1 -

33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.

34 And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many.

35 But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them.

The children of God and all of his creations are innumerable unto us, but are numbered unto him. We are his, and He knows us.

You think there's a problem of running out of spirits waiting to inherit earthly bodies? I don't think this is a problem unto God. His wisdom is above all human understanding.

I hope that helps answer the question- hope I didn't misunderstand your question.

[Guest Delmar]

How could he have an earthly mother?

Mary did carry Jesus in her womb for nine months and give birth to Him. I assume Moron doctrine agrees with this.

You seem to want to limit Heavenly Fathers power.

I'm not quite sure what leads you to that conclusion.

Also I have a feeling where you are going with this, so where in Mormon Doctrine does it say there is a Heavenly Mother. What are the implications if she did exist? If marriage and families is ordained by God why couldn't Heavenly Father set the example and have a wife himself?

I think I have been pretty clear and honest about where I am heading with this thread. It is widely taught in Protestant Christian circles, that Mormons worship a "different God" than the God of the Bible. I quite simply have come to the place where I believe it is irresponsible of me to accept or reject these claims, without exploring just what it is that Mormons believe.