Book of Mormon Reading Group: 09 Oct - 15 Oct 2023 (Words of Mormon 1 - Mosiah 13)

[Just_A_Guy]

On 10/13/2023 at 10:03 PM, Just_A_Guy said:

 I wish I could remember more of Bradley’s arguments—I lent his book to my FIL a year and a half ago and he still hasn’t returned it . . . IIRC he derives his argument in part from miscellaneous statements JS and Harris made about the contents of the lost pages, thematic elements, allusions in other part of the BoM as we have it today, and nuances in the manuscript itself.  My recollection is that Bradley hypothesizes that the Book of Mosiah actually begins with the reign of Benjamin’s father, Mosiah, who lived during a time of massive Nephite apostasy and basically re-enacted Nephi’s journey by taking a small group of followers and the holy Nephite relics and escaping to a new land (Zarahemla).

In reviewing the footnotes to the Maxwell Institute’s BoM study edition, I’m reminded that Mosiah is the only book from Mormon’s abridgment (excluding his autobiographical Book of Mormon) that lacks a prefatory summary—presumably, some scholars think, because it was lost with the 116 pages.

Edited October 16, 2023 by Just_A_Guy

[Vort]

5 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Chromium and titanium have melting temperatures which would be too high compared to copper and iron.  They most likely would not have had the technology to refine the metal or melt, soften, or shape it.  It would have been useless.  And the sources of chromium & titanium in the Americas is not that great.

Aluminum would be the most likely candidate.  And we have abundant bauxite mines in the Americas.

Additionally, aluminum passivates, keeping a shiny surface layer in most conditions.

[...]

Aluminum had just barely named in 1808 - 1812.  Reports on dates differ.  IIRC, it was because it was originally named aluminium.  But a few years later it was renamed to aluminum.  That's why the Brits and Aussies pronounce it differently.  They didn't keep up with the times. 

It wasn't able to be refined in its pure metal form until 1827.  And then it wasn't cheap.  Initially, pure aluminum was more precious than gold.

Throughout the 1800s the process of refining & smelting was improved until we achieved the process which was the basis of our current technology today.  And it became quite inexpensive for such a versatile metal.

The Bayer process, by which most aluminum is extracted and purified today, would be unlikely to have been developed (or anything like it) in ancient times. As you note, less than 200 years ago aluminum was considered more precious than gold. Napoleon was said to have owned a flatware set of sterling silver for everyday use, one of gold for when guests were present, and one of aluminum for when heads of state were dining with him.

tl;dr: I doubt ziff was aluminum. Chromium, perhaps, or another of the lightweight transition metals like manganese.

On the matter of the name: The element was originally named aluminum—no second i. A British scientist named Thomas Young decided that aluminium sounded better and that the -ium suffix better fit the element naming convention; apparently, Young had never heard of molybdenum, lanthanum, tantalum, or that unknown element platinum. His opinion carried sway in Britain; but Americans, who didn't care about Sir Young's infatuation with sounding high and mighty, continued calling it aluminum. So Americans may hold their heads high, knowing that the spelling and pronunciation they use was in fact the original.

5 hours ago, Carborendum said:

On 10/14/2023 at 1:25 PM, zil2 said:

My theory: Joseph Smith (or the people of his time) had no word for whatever this material was, so rather than giving him a translation for what 21st century humans call this stuff, the Lord just gave Joseph a transliteration of the word. 

Quite right.

I agree with @zil.

[zil2]

38 minutes ago, Vort said:

The Bayer process

[Carborendum]

8 hours ago, zil2 said:

I'm not calling you in the morning.

[Carborendum]

9 hours ago, Vort said:

On the matter of the name: The element was originally named aluminum—no second i. A British scientist named Thomas Young decided that aluminium sounded better and that the -ium suffix better fit the element naming convention; apparently, Young had never heard of molybdenum, lanthanum, tantalum, or that unknown element platinum. His opinion carried sway in Britain; but Americans, who didn't care about Sir Young's infatuation with sounding high and mighty, continued calling it aluminum. So Americans may hold their heads high, knowing that the spelling and pronunciation they use was in fact the original.

I disagree

https://www.gabrian.com/aluminum-or-aluminium/

Quote

In a publication made in 1808, he (Sir Humphry Davy, a Cornish chemist and inventor)stated that, had he been successful in isolating the metallic substance he was after, he would have proposed the name Alumium for this elusive element. Apparently unconvinced by this first name, he used the word Aluminum in a book published four years later when mentioning that “…Aluminum has not been obtained in a perfectly free state.”

Nevertheless, other British chemists decided to adopt the name Aluminium. They thought it had a more classical sound 

(attribution and emphasis mine)

Edited October 16, 2023 by Carborendum

[Carborendum]

9 hours ago, Vort said:

The Bayer process, by which most aluminum is extracted and purified today, would be unlikely to have been developed (or anything like it) in ancient times. As you note, less than 200 years ago aluminum was considered more precious than gold. Napoleon was said to have owned a flatware set of sterling silver for everyday use, one of gold for when guests were present, and one of aluminum for when heads of state were dining with him.

I agree it is highly unlikely that they developed the Bayer process.  In fact, it was pretty obvious.

The Bayer process turned it into a more common metal.  From the description in the BoM, it seemed to be a semi-precious metal.  If they had some other process that simply made it easier than the torturous process that was initially invented, it would have changed it from a precious to a semi-precious metal.

9 hours ago, Vort said:

tl;dr: I doubt ziff was aluminum. Chromium, perhaps, or another of the lightweight transition metals like manganese.

I'm not so sure manganese (or many of the transition metals) would have had any useful purpose in large quantities.  For a metal to be precious or semi-precious, it has to have some trait that makes it so.

Gold is a noble metal.  It is highly malleable and ductile.  Aluminum has great utility.

Manganese?  What is it used for that would put it in demand or make it a semi-precious metal?  I'm not seeing it.  Other transition metals also exhibit low utility or special qualities.

I tend to discount many of the other metals because of combinations of abundance (overall quantity found in the earth), utility, availability (where is it found) density, & melting point.

Edited October 16, 2023 by Carborendum

[Vort]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

Manganese?  What is it used for that would put it in demand or make it a semi-precious metal?

It's great for alloying, especially iron, making the steel tougher and less brittle.

[Carborendum]

23 minutes ago, Vort said:

It's great for alloying, especially iron, making the steel tougher and less brittle.

That's what it's used for today.  But they didn't use it in steel back then (that we know of).

And the utility is not great enough for it to be considered a precious metal.  Only a small amount of manganese is used in steel alloys today.  It just wouldn't be considered a semi-precious metal.

[Vort]

That's fine. I'm not invested in any of these ideas, except that I think it makes huge sense that Nephi was trained in metalsmithing. All of my speculations are worth exactly what you paid to read them.