LDS Opinion on Appropriate Missionary Behavior

[zil2]

I can't disagree, @The Folk Prophet.  All I can do is hope that something we say will let @old know that the things he's experiencing aren't the norm church-wide and that it's better for him to do whatever is required to bring his family back to the Church.

[The Folk Prophet]

8 minutes ago, zil2 said:

I can't disagree, @The Folk Prophet.  All I can do is hope that something we say will let @old know that the things he's experiencing aren't the norm church-wide and that it's better for him to do whatever is required to bring his family back to the Church.

Agreed.

It's a challenge, of course. Because the answer in any case is the same. Humility. Faith. Obedience.

And, I put it to you and @old and anyone... What if it were the norm church-wide? Does that make any difference.

God's covenants are His. God's church is His. God's commandments are His.

None of that changes no matter how other members behave.

The reality we face is that it may well become the norm church-wide. The reality is that some of that stuff already is the norm church-wide (just not in leadership...typically).

I understand the challenge. I understand the offense.

But what are we going to do about it? Damn ourselves in protest?

[LDSGator]

7 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Agreed.

It's a challenge, of course. Because the answer in any case is the same. Humility. Faith. Obedience.

And, I put it to you and @old and anyone... What if it were the norm church-wide? Does that make any difference.

God's covenants are His. God's church is His. God's commandments are His.

None of that changes no matter how other members behave.

The reality we face is that it may well become the norm church-wide. The reality is that some of that stuff already is the norm church-wide (just not in leadership...typically).

I understand the challenge. I understand the offense.

But what are we going to do about it? Damn ourselves in protest?

Just to be clear, you are saying that members should suck it up and deal if the church swings to being pro gay marriage or embraces other “progressive” ideals. Am I understanding that?

Edited December 19, 2023 by LDSGator

[The Folk Prophet]

5 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

Just to be clear, you are saying that members should suck it up and deal if the church swings to being pro gay marriage or embraces other “progressive” ideals. Am I understanding that?

Depends on what you mean by "the church".

[LDSGator]

1 minute ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Depends on what you mean by "the church".

Can you explain it nice and simple so someone of my meager intellectual capabilities can grasp it?    

[The Folk Prophet]

Just now, LDSGator said:

Can you explain it nice and simple so someone of my meager intellectual capabilities can grasp it?    

Well, I supposed it also depends on what you mean by "suck it up".

I said what I said. No matter how offensive the behavior and beliefs are of our fellow members the proper response isn't to leave Christ's church and damn ourselves accordingly.

That doesn't mean that if 9 out of 10 members think that gay temple marriage ought to be a thing that the remaining 1% should just embrace it as well. If that's what you mean by "suck it up" and "the church" then the answer is no. I said we shouldn't leave the church and damn ourselves. So if not leaving the church and not damning ourselves is what you mean by "suck it up", then yes, I guess.

If, however, you mean that the prophet stands up in General Conference and declares that gay marriage is legit now and gay temple marriages will now be performed... well, in that case, yeah. Members should suck it up and deal. If by suck it up and deal you mean pray about it, gain a testimony of the direction, and sustain the prophet.

That's a ridiculous hypothetical though. But there are some definite things that are less ridiculous that could change in the church's approach. And some that probably will. And some that already have.

I mean already they have women giving prayers in General Conference! Blasphemy!!!

[old]

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I'm well aware that some church leaders are flawed. Some are stupid. And some allow wrong things. But when someone starts claiming that they're the saintly innocent victim of the YW presidency, the bishopric, the Stake Presidency, etc. etc....

Really? The entire ward and stake are the ones in the wrong? Nothing else going on here? Just corrupt leaders?

Really?

And, of course, attending an Orthodox church isn't a red flag now at all, is it? That doesn't indicate anything at all, does it now? Or....

Maybe when something smells like fish, it's fish.

Typical LDS response.

I never claimed "saintly innocent".  I only claimed that the ONLY behavior that the Bishop EVER corrected my wife and I for was that my wife sat in the room.

Oh yes, I know the claims that were made against my wife.  They claimed my wife was "destroying testimonies".  Here are the things that happened that "destroyed testimonies".  This was outside of SS; a girl mentioned that for Halloween she was going to dress-up as Jesus and her friends were going to dress-up as the 12 Apostles.  My wife said that's a little sacrilegious.  That "destroyed" testimonies.  A girl mentioned she had a friend who liked girls but is now dating boys; my wife said "well that's a good thing!".  That destroyed testimonies. One of the youth activities the girls wanted to do was one which would involve things such as having the young men put on tutoos, spin in a circle while doing some girly thing-pure humiliation to the boys, every activity was showing how much better girls are than boys.  My wife in the room, said "hey do we need to make fun of others to have fun".  The young woman's response was an emphatic "Yes!!!". 

Mind you no one, not a single person ever mentioned these incidents to us.  They were literally the ones where my wife could think about that might have caused friction.

I was told directly by the YW president (after my wife mentioned they should probably have a lesson on modesty-given the girls were wearing booty shorts to youth activities).  "This isn't your grandma's church....and that's a good thing".

Could I or my wife in instances such as these had better tone, better expression, sure.

But there is a heck-of a lot more to this story.  When the 1st councilor in the YW presidency saw how badly my wife was treated.  She RESIGNED.  She was already struggling with temple belief.  But the level of toxicity displayed toward her for saying "hey we have a mom who would like to be involved; let's find a way for her to be involved" caused her to RESIGN.

Her husband was the 1st councilor in the Bishopric.  Within a month after her resignation; he was released.  Our family 5 kids (2 kids in youth). Their family 7 kids (4 kids in youth). Our two families combined made up OVER 10% of the attending members.  The YW president, one child in the program; councilor-no children in the program.

After the YW councilor resigned they found another woman to take the position; they had been in the ward for 5 months; 2 months later they announced they were moving (and I had talked with them, they were planning on staying a while).  In the 10 months afterward AND a new Bishopric the YW Presidency had the YW President and one councilor running the entire YW; in a ward of about 150 attending members.

Just the past couple of weeks did they call an additional councilor for the YW. Immediately after we left and a new Bishopric, the husband (who was in the prior Bishopric) of the woman who sent such nasty vile text was put in as a High Councilor.

The other family with 7 kids.  The wife was already struggling and she REMOVED her name from the records of the Church. 

The Bishop and the YW president blamed us as the ones who were "destroying testimonies".  Yet no one; not a single person would ever say "this is what you have done".  Our very presence offended others b/c we believe in the values we were taught growing up and not as the YW president said "this ain't your grandma's Church".

I don't know . . .could we have handled it better; sure.  Do we have blame to go around.  Absolutely; I am no Saint.

I didn't come here looking for any validation of my story.  I know what we lived through, I know what happened and it doesn't make a hill of beans difference whether anyone believes it or not.

I didn't come here looking for anyone to believe or provide a pity party.

Whether or not attending Orthodox is a red flag or not; I don't know and I don't care.  All I know is that to a person after attending for 10 months they are the most humble group of people united in one faith I have ever seen. 

No one is the least bit pushy; no one is banging on my door, no force, no "IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE THIS YOU ARE DAMNED", no "IF YOU FALL AWAY YOU WILL FOREVER BE AN APOSTATE!!!!"

It is the quietest confidence I have ever seen.  Do I believe all the Orthodox claims-no I do not.  Do I even know what all I believe, no I don't.

I do believe in God; I do believe in Christ; I do believe in the Scriptures. And there is a whole heck of a lot that the Orthodox believe in core aspects of what it MEANS to be a Christian that align very well with what I've been taught in the LDS Church.  The difference is that they seem to actually walk the walk of doing so.

They don't need to CONVINCE others of their faith.  In fact they don't want to convince others of it; they want their actions and the way that they worship to do the talking.  They don't rely on their own strength.

They quietly just say "this is the one true faith" and God will guide individuals path to it with or without their efforts.

And you know it's a heck of a lot better than seeing Sister so-and-so get up on Sunday blather about her faith in Christ and how she is such a good Christian, all the while sending vitrolic texts to anyone who crosses her path.

Am I an apostate for that.  Sure, fine go ahead and say it.

But at the end of the day; I know exactly who I'd rather be and who I'd rather my kids follow.  And that's the man/woman who stands up and says "I have a lot of faults, I am not better than anyone else; please forgive my faults and my offenses as I work through God's grace to overcome my own sinful passions that are known and unknown".

I'd rather those individuals be the leaders I look up to and the leaders my kids look up to rather than this horrific, well you don't follow the YW president, you don't follow the Bishop, you are an apostate and an unbeliever because you didn't "follow the leader".

All I see when I see a response like the above.  Someone who isn't confident in their own position and feels the need to invalid any experience that isn't "faith promoting".

You know what; the Orthodox don't need that; in fact they bring up individuals or Bishops faults.  Such and such Bishop was teaching things that were heretical and saying it was appropriate to do xyz and that wasn't in line with the Scriptures . . . so you know what the congregation did.  They locked the doors, prevented him from entering and asked the Patriarch for a new Bishop.  Problem solved.

In other words, they openly admit their leaders have fault and don't expect everyone to fall in line lock step just because the leader said so.  It's a whole lot healthier than "oh my goodness you opposed in Ward Conference-you must now be run out of town!!!"

[LDSGator]

2 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I said what I said. No matter how offensive the behavior and beliefs are of our fellow members the proper response isn't to leave Christ's church and damn ourselves accordingly.

The Catholics say the same thing about their numerous sex scandals.

[old]

1 minute ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I said what I said. No matter how offensive the behavior and beliefs are of our fellow members the proper response isn't to leave Christ's church and damn ourselves accordingly.

Only in the LDS Church is it taught that someone who leaves ends up being damned. Only in the LDS Church is it taught that someone who leaves is someone who tosses away the entirety of Christianity, will not believe in God, Christ, will start drinking, get tattoos, and become a wild beast.

What a silly, foolish notion of religion.

Even other religions who believe they are the one true Church, don't feel the need to say such foolish things.  Seriously who does it help?

That message is one of weakness not of confidence.  It says "your eternal salvation is dependent on us and don't ever doubt US because if you doubt US then you will loss your testimony and then you will lose your eternal salvation".

A message confidence is "we are the true faith" you will not find it anywhere else.  While not good, if you leave, we have the confidence that God will lead you back to the true faith.  

No berating, no circling the wagons, no "oh my goodness this person left . . .let's ATTACK them".  Just a simple quite confidence.  It's a position of strength.

Your response is a position of weakness not strength.

[The Folk Prophet]

1 minute ago, old said:

Typical LDS response.

Interesting. In that as far as I've noted I'm the only one who's responded this way.

[The Folk Prophet]

11 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

The Catholics say the same thing about their numerous sex scandals.

I'm not sure what your point is.

[LDSGator]

Just now, The Folk Prophet said:

I'm not sure what your point is.

More of an observation.

[old]

2 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

I simply don’t have enough information to make any sort of a righteous judgment here. This claim screams out, literally begs, for the other side to come and present their case.

It’s a pity we can’t summon people to the court of thirdhour to answer accusations leveled against them.  The folks in the story would either have a good defense, or they wouldn’t. And I have no way of knowing one way or the other which is correct.  

I would totally love for the other side to present their case.  It was what I BEGGED the Bishop for.

I BEGGED the Bishop; hey let us please sit down with the YW President you as the mediator and let's hash this out; let's figure it out.

I BEGGED the Bishop; please let us invite them over for dinner; let us heal this-let us find a way where we as parents can feel confident in what they are teaching our kids.

I WANT to feel confident in them; I WANT to be able to raise my hand in support.  That is the goal; we are not there right now.  Help us; PLEASE help us get there.

Every request was met with a "I do not think that would be a good idea". "I told you as a mom, you are not allowed into the young woman's room". Did my wife say anything inappropriate "No, but testimonies are being destroyed". 

We don't want to feel that my wife is needed in the room; but we do.  HELP to not feel that.  Please!!!!

No, you are not allowed in the room at all; if you disobey me again I will execute a restraining order on you.  . .  .what??? How did we go from let's heal this rift to if you go in uninvited again you I will call the cops and have a restraining order.  In what bizarro world are we living in.

We are members in good standing.  Not a single charge of inappropriate behavior is leveled.  Not a single instance of "we need to call a membership council", nothing . . .absolutely nothing.

Yet we dared to oppose in Ward Conference.  I'm confident the directive given from the Stake President was to get rid of us; because he even said "after consultation with the Stake President" they had nothing to pull any charges up.

Just threats and nasty, nasty behavior. 

[The Folk Prophet]

@old do you understand what's meant by "the covenant path"?

Do you understand what's meant by "authority"?

Do you understand the concepts and ideas behind the "restoration" of Christ's gospel.

Do you understand priesthood keys?

Do you understand the purposes and importance of the temple?

[LDSGator]

The “restraining order” thing bothers me because it’s SO nasty and frankly, sort of ridiculous. Unless @old was threatening violence or something it’s totally uncalled for.  

[The Folk Prophet]

12 minutes ago, old said:

Your response is a position of weakness not strength.

My position is irrelevant. I'm a rando on the internet.

God's position is the only one that matters.

If the church is God's church and the covenant path is His then you are damning yourself for leaving it. It has nothing to do with anyone else's position or anyone else's strength or weakness. 

If you don't believe The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is God's church then you don't believe it. And we disagree. And it's as simple as that.

But to claim that other's who DO believe this are weak for believing it doesn't hold a lot of water in my book. You're free to believe what you want and exercise your agency according to your convictions.

[old]

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

In point of fact, the very idea that "love and acceptance" of gay people being taught in YW is somehow more of a danger to one's children than going inactive and attending an Orthodox church is so ridiculous it's almost laughable.

And that is where we differ.  I refuse to sacrifice my children upon the alter of this new ideology.

If you think it is just "love and acceptance" you are sadly mistaken.

It is about acceptance of horrific sodomic activities; it is acceptance of horrific mutilation of body and soul. It is about acceptance of young men who openly admit they have romantic interest in other young men, who feel spurned b/c that romantic interest is not reciprocated being called to serve missions with no correction; with these young men feeling it is appropriate to do so.

I refuse to tell my children that their eternal salvation, i.e. being a good member depends on them serving a mission with someone who believes it is acceptable to have romantic interest with the same-sex.

If leaders are unwilling to stand up to and if my requests for my local leaders to stand up to it go unrequited AND because of those requests my wife and I are the recipients of the most vile, disgusting words and actions from said leaders AND there is no recognition that behavior is unbecoming of any leader, if all those things are met well....

I will GLADLY leave and go someplace healthy for the spiritual well-being of my children.  And at the last day, if God tells me I did wrong, I will GLADLY repent and say Lord I made a mistake; please forgive me.  And if He refuses to forgive me. That is His call.  I did what I had to do given the knowledge I have, given what God gave me for the spiritual wellbeing of my children.

And no one else is their father. Judge me all you want for it.  Totally cool. I know where I stand.

[The Folk Prophet]

4 minutes ago, old said:

If you think it is just "love and acceptance" you are sadly mistaken.

You don't know me. So we'll just let that one slide, as everyone else on the forum has a bit of a chuckle.

 

[old]

3 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

My position is irrelevant. I'm a rando on the internet.

God's position is the only one that matters.

If the church is God's church and the covenant path is His then you are damning yourself for leaving it. It has nothing to do with anyone else's position or anyone else's strength or weakness. 

If you don't believe The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is God's church then you don't believe it. And we disagree. And it's as simple as that.

But to claim that other's who DO believe this are weak for believing it doesn't hold a lot of water in my book. You're free to believe what you want and exercise your agency according to your convictions.

Yes God's position is the only one that matters.

It's irrelevant whether I believe LDS is God's Church or not.  It only matters what path the one True God desires me to follow.

You are LDS; why are baptisms for the dead performed? So those who's hearts are pure will be brought into God's presence. If you truly believe that; they why do you fight so hard to convince me that the LDS Church is the One True Church; why do you say "oh you will be damned".

If the LDS Church is the one true Church; is God not big enough; is He not mighty enough that even one who has experienced horrific things at the hands of His servants and who goes off into the wilderness might one day (either in this life or the next be brought back)?

If you truly believe in the prodigal son and in baptism?

Why do you fight the possibility that YOU are the one who MUST tell me that I and my family will be damned?

If you are so confident in God, why is the response simply just a quite "I know this is the truth; I'm sorry that there are wrongs that have been committed by those in charge; and I'm confident that even though you might go and attend other places, God will eventually lead you back?"

I'm generally curious why you feel the need to mention "oh you are damned, you apostate"?

[LDSGator]

2 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

You don't know me. So we'll just let that one slide, as everyone else on the forum has a bit of a chuckle.

 

By “chuckle” I think you mean “side splitting laughter.”

 

Want an ACLU card? I can send you a pamphlet. 

[old]

1 minute ago, The Folk Prophet said:

You don't know me. So we'll just let that one slide, as everyone else on the forum has a bit of a chuckle.

 

No I don't; so I'm not sure what the comment this is about.  There was no intended dig there.  It was just a statement of fact.  This isn't about "acceptance and love".

[LDSGator]

Just now, old said:

No I don't; so I'm not sure what the comment this is about.  There was no intended dig there.  It was just a statement of fact.  This isn't about "acceptance and love".

@The Folk Prophet-who I don’t know offline either (and both of us are much happier due to that) is no left winger. 

[The Folk Prophet]

2 minutes ago, old said:

I'm generally curious why you feel the need to mention "oh you are damned, you apostate"?

The keeping of covenants are key.

If you truly believe you are then tell me to go jump.

I don't think going inactive and attending a church that isn't God's authoritative church wherein the covenants are authoritatively made is keeping said covenants.

That being said, I didn't directly tell you you are damned or call you an apostate. I did imply that those who leave the church are damning themselves. That's because of covenants, of which, if you have made them, you should also know very well what the consequences are for failing to keep them.

[The Folk Prophet]

4 minutes ago, old said:

No I don't; so I'm not sure what the comment this is about.  There was no intended dig there.  It was just a statement of fact.  This isn't about "acceptance and love".

I have a history of being pretty vehemently against the homosexual agenda.

2 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

@The Folk Prophet-who I don’t know offline either (and both of us are much happier due to that) is no left winger. 

Honestly I think we'd get along rather well.

[old]

20 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

The “restraining order” thing bothers me because it’s SO nasty and frankly, sort of ridiculous. Unless @old was threatening violence or something it’s totally uncalled for.  

I 100% totally agree; literally it came so far out of the blue; I had to double-take. I still to this day 10 months, bewildered by it.

And as an FYI, the bishopric right before they were released requested to come over.  Even after all that, I said sure. We had a good discussion.  We didn't mention this as I'm not sure it would have done much good.  

It more felt like the Bishop wanted to see if I was ticked at him...I have completely forgiven him.  I might have said this; but I think he was directed by the SP to do whatever necessary to get rid of us.  I genuinely think the Bishop is a decent man and wants to do what is right.

After he was released the Bishop is now the Stake Clerk.  You know it's weird.  This huge issue and the husband of the wife is in the High Councilor, the Bishop the Stake Clerk.  I've been in the business world long enough that it feels like a "you did xyz job I gave you, now here is your promotion".

Which is fine; that's cool . . .I could be totally wrong.