Book of Mormon Reading Group: 18 Dec - 24 Dec 2023 (Mormon 1 - Ether 7)

[zil2]

Please see the Book of Mormon Reading Group thread for details (and discussion of 1 Nephi 1 - 5).  Our goal is to read the Book of Mormon by the end of the year.  I'll make a new post before each Monday so that it's ready to go - weeks go from Monday to Sunday for our purposes.

This week's schedule:

Dec 18	Mormon 2	Monday
Dec 19	Mormon 5	Tuesday
Dec 20	Mormon 7	Wednesday
Dec 21	Mormon 9	Thursday
Dec 22	Ether 2	Friday
Dec 23	Ether 4	Saturday
Dec 24	Ether 7	Sunday

 

Last Week: Book of Mormon Reading Group: 11 Dec - 17 Dec 2023 (3 Nephi 14 - 4 Nephi 1)

Thread Index

 

 

[zil2]

And today, we start the book of Mormon in the Book of Mormon...

Mormon 1

Mormon is 11 through 15 through most of this chapter!  I suppose the lesson here for all of us is that it's possible to be righteous despite living in the middle of a very wicked society - so wicked that the Lord has basically given up trying to turn the people from their wickedness (v13-14, v16-17, 2:19).    @old - perhaps there might be some comfort and guidance here for you?  (If nothing else, if you are not studying from the Book of Mormon every day, I encourage you to try it and see if the Lord doesn't bless your family for it.)

v19: I don't know why the footnotes don't link it, but I think the prophecy of Abinadi would have to be from Mosiah 11:20-25, and Samuel the Lamanite prophesied in Helaman 13-15 - similar "repent or be destroyed" language, but also cursed their riches to become "slippery" (in chapter 13).  Mormon's mention of these here should teach us that prophecies can be fulfilled multiple times, and can apply many generations after they're given.

Mormon 2

Even with a righteous leader, the Lord will not support a wicked people.

v8: Don't wait until you're surrounded by blood and carnage (literal, spiritual, or figurative) before you repent!  But if you have waited that long, repent!

v1:4, 2:17 - it would appear that neither Ammaron nor Mormon knew, initially, that the Lord would have Mormon abridge the plates.  Ammaron's instructions and Mormon's initial action were both simply to add to the record what Mormon had experienced.

v18: "these plates" are plates Mormon made (see footnote).  I suspect he made them after making his initial historical entry.

v23: The things for which one can justly fight have not changed.  I can imagine Mormon, when he went to this hill, intensely studying the plates of Nephi, and being so impressed by Captain Moroni that he decided to name his (Mormon's) son after him (Captain Moroni).

v26: Don't be left to yourself.  Stay true to the Lord, so that you can have his strength and support.

v27: (And earlier verses) Note that Mormon sorrows for the wickedness of his people.  We don't see him getting angry or indignant or similar self-focused reactions.  (Not saying Mormon was perfect, heaven knows; but the important lesson here is that we should try to curb our own selfish reactions to the wickedness of others and focus on selfless reactions - mourning, and if possible, encouraging repentance and righteous choices.) (See 3:12)

Edited December 18, 2023 by zil2

[zil2]

Tuesdays are busy days for me, so I'm going to read Mormon 3 today and 4-5 tomorrow:

Mormon 3

v1: When you learn something from scripture, put it into action in your life!

v2: The Lord wants you to come back, no matter how far you may have gone from him.

v9-10: Just don't do these things!  Be humble and grateful.

v15: You only get so many chances.  Don't waste them!

[askandanswer]

It must be difficult to fight for a cause when you have no hope of winning. It is, also suggested by other scriptures that to be without hope is not too different from being without faith.

Mormon 5:2

But behold, I was without hope, 

 

 

Maybe there was a resurgence in the popularity of Jewish place names after Christ. In chapter 1 we saw David, Joshua and Aaron all being used as place names. 

Mormon 5:3

And it came to pass that the Lamanites did come against us as we had fled to the city of Jordan;

 

 

This reminds me of 2nd Samuel 11:2 when that which should have been hidden was revealed from the house top.

Mormon 5:8

 knowing that these things must surely be made known, and that all things which are hid must be revealed upon the house-tops—

 

So far the Book of Mormon does not have a strong track record in convincing unbelieving Jews that Jesus is the Christ, unless we count the original inhabitants of central and south America as Jews because they descended from Lehi who was a Jew. But that seems silly, because if we apply that logic we could count the Jews as Egyptians, or of whatsoever land Jacob was in when his 12 sons were born.

Mormon 5:14

And behold, they shall go unto the unbelieving of the Jews; and for this intent shall they go—that they may be persuaded that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God; that the Father may bring about, through his most Beloved, his great and eternal purpose, in restoring the Jews, or all the house of Israel, to the land of their inheritance.

 

 

This is where the Book of Mormon has been spectacularly successful.

Mormon 5:15

 And also that the seed of this people may more fully believe his gospel, which shall go forth unto them from the Gentiles;

 

 

I have a vague memory of Brigham Young or Joseph Smith commenting on/describing the native peoples of the Americas and I don't think that description is consistent with this prophecy here.

Mormon 5:15

for this people shall be scattered, and shall become a dark, a filthy, and a loathsome people, beyond the description of that which ever hath been amongst us,

 

 

This is an interesting, and I believe somewhat controversial among some people, idea, that there is a connection between physical appearance and levels of belief/wickedness. I suspect there is not a lot of evidence for it because some of the most wicked and war-mongering people have been white.

Mormon 5:15

  and this because of their unbelief and idolatry.

 

 

The people who were being led about by Satan were engaged as hard as they could in mutual destruction. Satan could have his way with these people without restraint and his way was to lead them to death as fast as possible.

Both Satan, in these chapters, and Christ, in 3rd Nephi 8, engaged in wholesale destruction of the wicked.

Mormon 5:18

 But now, behold, they are led about by Satan, even as chaff is driven before the wind,

 

 

This is another example of how gifts of land and promised blessings from God are conditional and can easily be passed to another group of people.

Mormon 5:19

And behold, the Lord hath reserved their blessings, which they might have received in the land, for the Gentiles who shall possess the land.

 

 

The Nephites of his time are not listening to his preaching, so Mormon starts preaching to a people more than a thousand years into the future. I guess that like Alma, he could not be restrained. 

Mormon 5:22

And then, O ye Gentiles, how can ye stand before the power of God, except ye shall repent and turn from your evil ways?

[Carborendum]

We skipped Ch 6?

I was just looking at numbers and gematria recently.  And I found something that may or may not mean anything at all.  But it is interesting.  In several verses, we see that the armies were in groups of 10,000. 

• It is unclear what the maximum number was in ancient Hebrew.  Modern Hebrew can go up to infinity. 
• Ancient Greek the maximum number using gematria was 10,000. 
• Ancient Latin allowed for 100,000.
• Egyptian heiroglyphics actually went up to 1 million.  And they also had a number for zero (which was a phenomenal feat for the era of their prominence).

So, when we see the sizes of the armies being repeatedly 10,000 that may have been a limitation of their numbering system. This means that each army could have been somewhat larger, but there was no way to number them.

[zil2]

9 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

We skipped Ch 6?

No, the chapter shown for the day is what you read up through.  So today is Mormon 1 and 2.  Tomorrow is Mormon 3-5, Wednesday is 6-7, etc.

[Carborendum]

2 minutes ago, zil2 said:

No, the chapter shown for the day is what you read up through.  So today is Mormon 1 and 2.  Tomorrow is Mormon 3-5, Wednesday is 6-7, etc.

Oh.  I was looking at the chart in your OP.

[zil2]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

Oh.  I was looking at the chart in your OP.

Yes, that's what I was referring to.  The chart shows where to stop, not where to start, nor what we're reading.  So, this is what the chart means:

Dec 18	Mormon 1-2	Monday
Dec 19	Mormon 3-5	Tuesday
Dec 20	Mormon 6-7	Wednesday
Dec 21	Mormon 8-9	Thursday
Dec 22	Ether 1-2	Friday
Dec 23	Ether 3-4	Saturday
Dec 24	Ether 5-7	Sunday

It's been that way from the start.  That's how the website I used generated it.

[zil2]

Mormon 4

v4: Maybe events in modern-day America move slower, maybe we aren't guilty of this, but I really wonder if we aren't and if such instances haven't laid us open to the problems we now experience.

v5: Keep in mind that when the wicked battle the wicked, you're better off staying out of it, if you can.  Don't think just because two sides are at war, one of them must be right.

v23: I have to wonder how many llamas or wagons or whatevers it took for him to move all these records.

Mormon 5

v5: (interesting that it's v5) Apparently, when things get bad enough, the only way to stay out of it is to die or to be the first to flee and never stop fleeing.

v8-9: Poor Mormon.

v22: Repent!

v23: Make being in the hands of God a good thing.

v24: Get adopted into the house of Israel.

[zil2]

Mormon 6

Repent.  Rely on the Lord.  Protect sacred things. Love your enemies.

v6: I wonder how long it took to make the abridgement - this verse makes it sound like he did it in a bit of a hurry.

Mormon 7

v1: If you think about it, all Mormon had to live for was whatever family survived (seems like only Moroni) and the distant future the Lord had shown him.

v2+: can apply to all of us, not just the remnants of the Nephites and Lamanites.

v9: The Book of Mormon is written so that we will believe what is written in the Bible.

v10: Repent, be baptized, receive the Holy Ghost, follow the Savior and it shall be well with you.

 

Far too busy day!  Did you know that cats have really good noses (sense of smell)?  And that citrus oils are toxic to them?  And that dishwasher detergent often has citrus scents in it?  (Not enough for me to smell it, but kitty noses are super-strong.)  And that this may well be the reason Klaw doesn't eat much at a time and wants to be fed every 2 hours, unless I feed him straight out of the can rather than in a bowl?  I have spent the morning soaking my kitty food bowls in vinegar and then baking soda in hopes this will remove the citrus scent and let him eat out of the food bowls without being repulsed by them.  Hopefully I don't need another round, but who knows.  Guess I'm back to hand-washing the kitty bowls until I find a tolerable dishwasher detergent (if there is such a thing).  Pray for us! 

[Carborendum]

15 minutes ago, zil2 said:

Far too busy day!  Did you know that cats have really good noses (sense of smell)?  And that citrus oils are toxic to them?  And that dishwasher detergent often has citrus scents in it?  (Not enough for me to smell it, but kitty noses are super-strong.)  And that this may well be the reason Klaw doesn't eat much at a time and wants to be fed every 2 hours, unless I feed him straight out of the can rather than in a bowl?  I have spent the morning soaking my kitty food bowls in vinegar and then baking soda in hopes this will remove the citrus scent and let him eat out of the food bowls without being repulsed by them.  Hopefully I don't need another round, but who knows.  Guess I'm back to hand-washing the kitty bowls until I find a tolerable dishwasher detergent (if there is such a thing).  Pray for us! 

I've washed Strider's bowl in the dishwasher before.  He never shied away from it.

[zil2]

15 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I've washed Strider's bowl in the dishwasher before.  He never shied away from it.

Maybe your dishwasher detergent doesn't leave as much of a citrus scent behind.  Maybe his bowl is made of a different material (metal?) that doesn't hold the scent.  Maybe you feed strider dry food, which is basically candy to a cat, and they'll eat it out of anything.  Maybe Strider isn't as sensitive to citrus scents (it does vary from cat to cat how "repelled" they are by it).  Or any combination.

Of course, I have yet to use any of these freshly washed bowls, so right now, it's more a theory waiting to be tested than a certainty.  All I know is if I feed him straight from the can instead of putting it in the bowl, he eats more, and he eats foods that he won't eat out of the bowl - I'm thinking these are the flavors he doesn't like as well and isn't willing to put up with the scent just for the sake of kitty "Brussels sprouts" (so to speak).

[Carborendum]

26 minutes ago, zil2 said:

Maybe...

I use Cascade liquid.  The bowls are metal.  And I feed him both canned and dry.  He likes the canned.  He can't stand the dry.  As far as I could discern from his behavior around various scents, I don't think he has a keen sense of smell.

He will not eat brussels sprouts or cabbage.  He won't come near the table when we have kim chee.  So, he's obviously not a Korean cat .

He can't decide if he's an indoor or outdoor cat.  He can't decide if he's a pet or pest control.  He's apparently not too keen on identifying as anything that will pigeon hole him.  Not a woke cat.  He sleeps a lot.

Edited December 20, 2023 by Carborendum

[zil2]

23 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I use Cascade liquid.

Thank you, that's helpful!  Something like this?

24 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

The bowls are metal.

Yeah, Klaw's are all ceramic.  (And some Corelle dessert bowls that have nothing better to do.)

25 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

He can't stand the dry.

Wow!  That's unusual.  Good for him.  (Everything I've read on it says dry just doesn't have any advantages for the cat - only convenience for the humans.)

26 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I don't think he has a keen sense of smell.

Oh.  I guess that could be, or he's just indifferent.  The only smell Klaw has run from is Windex - the ammonia in it.   But he's all the time sniffing stuff.

27 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

He can't decide if he's an indoor or outdoor cat.  He can't decide if he's a pet or pest control.  He's apparently not too keen on identifying as anything that will pigeon hole him.  Not a woke cat.

28 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

He sleeps a lot.

Confirmed, he's a cat!   Klaw doesn't sleep enough - he's all the time insisting I come play with him - or feed him more...

[askandanswer]

This looks like an appeal to believe in Christ based on a fear of what will happen if you don't believe. I think it has been quite some time since that sort of appeal was regarded as an effective tool of missionary work.

Mormon 9:2

Behold, will ye believe in the day of your visitation—behold, when the Lord shall come, yea, even that great day when the earth shall be rolled together as a scroll, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, yea, in that great day when ye shall be brought to stand before the Lamb of God

 

Repentance can remove guilt but it is only available on certain conditions.

OR

Repentance can remove guilt and it is available to all who meet the conditions on which it is provided.

Mormon 9:3

 Do ye suppose that ye shall dwell with him under a consciousness of your guilt? Do ye suppose that ye could be happy to dwell with that holy Being, when your souls are racked with a consciousness of guilt that ye have ever abused his laws?

 

I think this plea to repent might be one of the most important things that Moroni wrote.

Mormon 9:6

O then ye unbelieving, turn ye unto the Lord; cry mightily unto the Father in the name of Jesus, that perhaps ye may be found spotless, pure, fair, and white, having been cleansed by the blood of the Lamb, at that great and last day.

 

I find it difficult to understand the mindset of people who say/believe this. Why would God do miracles before and then stop doing them?

On the other hand, the appearance of God's reduced involvement with His children during the dark ages, and the infrequency of reported miracles during that time might add support to the idea that sometimes, for the reasons given in verse 29, God does sometimes seem to cease doing miracles, or does fewer of them for a season.

Mormon 9:7

And again I speak unto you who deny the revelations of God, and say that they are done away, that there are no revelations, nor prophecies, nor gifts, nor healing, nor speaking with tongues, and the interpretation of tongues

 

Is the fall of man more correctly attributed to Adam, or to Eve? My understanding is that it was Eve who first committed the act which caused the fall.

Mormon 9:12

Behold, he created Adam, and by Adam came the fall of man. 

 

 

This endless sleep only refers to the condition of our body. Consciousness, self-awareness and identity never ceased.

Mormon 9:13

which bringeth to pass a redemption from an endless sleep, 

 

 

I think this could be more accurately expressed as "from which sleep the bodies of all people"

Mormon 9:13

from which sleep all men shall 

 

 A possible interpretation of this scripture is that after the time of judgement, our condition/position becomes fixed/frozen/incapable of further change. This does not fit well with the idea that a period in hell can lead to sins being paid for and that after the price is paid souls can eventually be released.

Mormon 9:14

 And then cometh the judgment of the Holy One upon them; and then cometh the time that he that is filthy shall be filthy still;

 

One man's miracles becomes another man's daily necessity. I guess we can see this clearly by reference to the example of electricity. One of the benefits of living in the latter days.

Mormon 9:16

Behold, are not the things that God hath wrought marvelous in our eyes? Yea, and who can comprehend the marvelous works of God?

 

And this is beginning to look like an appeal to believe based on miracles, which are a type of sign. This also is a less successful type of appeal to people to change their hearts. I think there is a lot of evidence to support the idea that people whose conversion is based on miracles develop shallow root systems that don't provide support during a storm.

I suspect that Moroni would have used what he believed to be the most effective types of appeals that he knew of when trying to encourage people to change their hearts and come unto God. If appeals based on fear and signs were the most successful type of appeal at that time, to those people, and if such approaches now are downplayed or minimised, it may suggest that there has been a fundamental change in what people today regard as most appealing about the gospel. The primary approach today seems to be to help people understand the nature of their relationship with God and to help them seek their own answers to prayer. This is quite a different approach than the two approaches Moroni is relying on here.

Mormon 9:18

And who shall say that Jesus Christ did not do many mighty miracles? And there were many mighty miracles wrought by the hands of the apostles.

 

This sort of raises a chicken or egg argument. Perhaps the reason why they began to dwindle in unbelief is that they did not see enough miracles to sustain their faith. If that were the case it would help to illustrate why signs, in the form of miracles, are not the best foundation on which to build a testimony.

Mormon 9:20

And the reason why he ceaseth to do miracles among the children of men is because that they dwindle in unbelief, and depart from the right way, and know not the God in whom they should trust.

 

I get a bit concerned/confused when I read this type of verse, of which there are many, many others, suggesting that all you need to do is believe and ask and you shall receive. I think they create a misleading impression about how easy it can be to get something by asking for it through prayer. There are so many more conditions that need to be met in order to receive what you ask of the Father.

In recent years I've heard a few conference talks that seem to discourage this idea of viewing God as a celestial vending machine.

Mormon 9:21

 whoso believeth in Christ, doubting nothing, whatsoever he shall ask the Father in the name of Christ it shall be granted him; and this promise is unto all, 

 

I have the same concerns about this type of verse, and for the same reasons, as I do for verse 21 - they seem to simplify requirements of what is involved in achieving a particular outcome and leave out many, many other necessary conditions.

Mormon 9:23

And he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believeth not shall be damned;

[zil2]

48 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

Is the fall of man more correctly attributed to Adam, or to Eve? My understanding is that it was Eve who first committed the act which caused the fall.

Didn't we go over this one before?  Eve's fall caused Eve to fall.  It wasn't until Adam chose to fall that mortal mankind became a possibility, and, of course, they would come into a fallen state.  Had Adam chosen to stay in his initial state, there would have been no "mankind".

Or, the snarky version: By Eve came the fall of woman and by Adam came the fall of man.

[zil2]

Mormon 8 (written by Moroni)

v1: I think at this point, Moroni doesn't think much of his survival chances and also doesn't expect to be doing much writing in this book.

v5: Poor Moroni.

v11: Be worthy, even if literally no one else is.

v14: Is "the record thereof" of great worth to you?  (It is to me.)

Clearly Moroni was shown and prepared for what would happen in the future.

v22: Trust this and roll with those purposes.

v25: How humbling it must have been to Joseph Smith to read these things about himself.

v27+: I always wonder whether "day" is Joseph Smith's day or from then through the Second Coming.  Whatever the case, the following descriptions of wickedness are lessons in reverse - don't do that stuff!  Be a humble follower of Christ.

Mormon 9 (still Moroni)

v3: Work hard to not abuse God's laws.  Repent after you do. (v6)

v7+: Believe in the gifts and power of God.  Believe in Jesus Christ.

v20+: Don't dwindle.  Believe!

v21, 25: "doubting nothing" is a high standard.  Learn the will of the Lord so that you can then ask for it, nothing doubting.

v27-29: Just do / be this!

[askandanswer]

I should compare this with parts of 1st and 2nd Nephi to see if they use the promised land or a promised land.

Ether 2

The Jaredites prepare for their journey to a promised land

 

The promised land is a very conditional gift.

Ether 2

It is a choice land whereon men must serve Christ or be swept off

 

A one-on-one audience for 50% longer than the duration of a General Conference session. There is a huge amount that can be conveyed in that amount of time. I suspect Joseph Smith's lessons with Moroni might have been of similar duration, and from what I recall, without checking, Moses was on Mount Sinai for many days and nights.

Ether 2

The Lord talks to the brother of Jared for three hours—

 

barges, not arks like Noah, or ships like Nephi

Ether 2

The Jaredites build barges—

 

I'm guessing that this is a subject area in which the brother did not have a lot of expertise or experience.

Ether 2

The Lord asks the brother of Jared to propose how the barges will be lighted.

 

This sounds like a larger group than the group that went with Lehi but its speculative because we don't have a number.

Ether 2:1

And it came to pass that Jared and his brother, and their families, and also the friends of Jared and his brother and their families, went 

 

 

`This group sounds much better prepared than Lehi's group, or perhaps Nephi simply didn't record such things on the plates that Mormon abridged.

Ether 2:3

and thus they did carry with them swarms of bees, and all manner of that which was upon the face of the land, seeds of every kind.

 

For reasons that are not clear, the Lord chooses to stay hidden from His children.

The manner of almost appearing sounds very similar to the experience of Moses.

Ether 2:4

the Lord came down and talked with the brother of Jared; and he was in a cloud, and the brother of Jared saw him not.

 

Sounds very similar to the Israelies post Egypt and pre-Israel.

Ether 2:5

And it came to pass that the Lord did go before them, and did talk with them as he stood in a cloud, and gave directions whither they should travel.

 

Personal directions rather than through a Liahona. There's likely to be a reason for the difference. 

Ether 2:5

And it came to pass that the Lord did go before them, and did talk with them as he stood in a cloud, and gave directions whither they should travel.

 

It's not clear whether this refers to many different bodies of water or one or a few larger bodies of water. I wonder how many sets of barges they ended up building.

Ether 2:6

 and did build barges, in which they did cross many waters

 

Which land in particular is being referred to here? What land was covered by the decree, and what land wasn't? Even today, we see a lack of precision about the exact extent of a decree about a promised land continuing to drive conflict between the Israelis and the Palestinians.

Ether 2:9

And now, we can behold the decrees of God concerning this land

 

This suggests a yes/no sort of approach, that only once a particular condition has been met does it then trigger a particular consequence. It does not seem to be a gradual approach with the consequence beginning to occur gradually as the conditions are gradually met.

Ether 2:9

And the fulness of his wrath cometh upon them when they are ripened in iniquity.

 

There are only limited parts of north or south America that have not been under political bondage of some sort. Even the components of what became the US was under bondage until about 1776. And you could make a reasonable argument that even today, the US is under the bondage of debt. 

 

Ether 2:12

Behold, this is a choice land, and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall be free from bondage

 

I suspect this is an incomplete account. I can't seee how or why it would take the Lord 3 hours to rebuke the brother of Jared for this failure to pray.

Instead of calling another person to be his spokesperson, the Lord corrected the spokesperson he already had.

I wonder if not praying sufficiently often could be considered as a type of deserting, or walking away, from God. Is that what the brother of Jared did? If so, it''s interesting that God continued to deal with him.

Ether 2:14

And for the space of three hours did the Lord talk with the brother of Jared, and chastened him because he remembered not to call upon the name of the Lord.

 

Noah had a window but I kind of doubt that one window would have been enough to adequately illuminate the whole ark.

God could have prevented the winds and the waves from dashing a window to pieces but instead He chose to prevent them from having a window and invited suggestions as to how the ark should be lit. There are reasons for choices.

I'm not sure what sort of lighting Lehi and his people had on their trip.

I'm not sure what the Lord has against fire. He prevented Lehi's group in the wildnerness from having fire right up until the time that Nephi needed fire to make tools. On the other hand, the Lord appeared as a firey, cloudy pillar in the wilderness to guide the Israelites. He was quite happy to let them go by fire as long as He was the fire. 

 

Ether 2:23

 For behold, ye cannot have windows, for they will be dashed in pieces; neither shall ye take fire with you, for ye shall not go by the light of fire.

 

 

 

 

[zil2]

34 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

`This group sounds much better prepared than Lehi's group, or perhaps Nephi simply didn't record such things on the plates that Mormon abridged.

Ether 2:3

and thus they did carry with them swarms of bees, and all manner of that which was upon the face of the land, seeds of every kind.

Quote

1 Nephi 18:6 And it came to pass that on the morrow, after we had prepared all things, much fruits and meat from the wilderness, and honey in abundance, and provisions according to that which the Lord had commanded us, we did go down into the ship, with all our loading and our seeds, and whatsoever thing we had brought with us, every one according to his age; wherefore, we did all go down into the ship, with our wives and our children.

..

8 And it came to pass after we had all gone down into the ship, and had taken with us our provisions and things which had been commanded us, we did put forth into the sea and were driven forth before the wind towards the promised land.

..

24 And it came to pass that we did begin to till the earth, and we began to plant seeds; yea, we did put all our seeds into the earth, which we had brought from the land of Jerusalem. And it came to pass that they did grow exceedingly; wherefore, we were blessed in abundance.

The Nephite journey doesn't seem to have taken as long as the Jaredite journey:

Quote

23 And it came to pass that after we had sailed for the space of many days we did arrive at the promised land; and we went forth upon the land, and did pitch our tents; and we did call it the promised land.

 

41 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

I'm not sure what the Lord has against fire. He prevented Lehi's group in the wildnerness from having fire right up until the time that Nephi needed fire to make tools. On the other hand, the Lord appeared as a firey, cloudy pillar in the wilderness to guide the Israelites. He was quite happy to let them go by fire as long as He was the fire. 

Nibley speculated that the route Lehi and his family traveled would have been dangerous (for outsiders) and fire would have given away the fact that there were people there.  No fire in the barges seems obvious.

[Jamie123]

I've been lagging behind, but I'm finally up to date again. This is all very grim stuff. Sorry if someone explained this already and I missed it ( i will go over the comments again more thoroughly tomorrow), but why is the latter part of Mormon, written by Morono, still called the "Book of Mormon" and not part of the book of Moroni?

[zil2]

6 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

I've been lagging behind, but I'm finally up to date again. This is all very grim stuff. Sorry if someone explained this already and I missed it ( i will go over the comments again more thoroughly tomorrow), but why is the latter part of Mormon, written by Morono, still called the "Book of Mormon" and not part of the book of Moroni?

My opinion, Moroni wasn't expecting to do anything except finish writing a few things his father told him to write.  But he survived longer than he thought, and the Lord instructed him to do more (and / or he just decided to add some more).  So I think Mormon 8 and 9 are Moroni's "well, I'll just wrap this up and we're done."  But then Ether and Moroni are Moroni's "huh, well, I'm still alive, so I guess I should do something useful."

But that's totally my opinion.  (You'll discover that Moroni includes in the book of Moroni some letters from his father.  So just as we have two Moroni chapters in Mormon, we'll have some Mormon chapters in Moroni. )

Alternate answer: Life is messy and unexpected.

[zil2]

Long ago, I used a "mind mapping" application (X-Mind) to chart the leaders mentioned in the book of Ether.  I'm attaching a PDF - it's huge - to print it would require 11x17 paper (A3 for @Jamie123).  Looking at it, it's not going to make a lot of sense until I start reading.   The stars are people said to be righteous.  The angry red faces are those said to be wicked.  I forget what the lock icon was, but I expect it's people involved in secret combinations. The notes (represented by note icons) didn't transfer and I'm not inclined to manually add them (they mention things like "poisonous serpents disappeared during his reign").  Anywho, I thought it might be interesting to others - or not - you can decide.

Let me know if you don't see the PDF (and want to).  I'm just attaching it to the post, not inserting it anywhere in the text, so I think it will show up at the bottom of this post - not sure until I actually submit it...

Ether 1

v2-3: Either those were big plates, or the language was very efficient, or it was the "Cliff Notes" version of events.

v6-32: See PDF.   "(d)" after a name means they were a "descendant of" the person before rather than "son of".

v33: @Jamie123, according to Joseph Smith, the name of the brother of Jared (which is never given in the book of Ether) is Mahonri Moriancumer.  (See this old post from my former self for more interesting stuff about the name.)

The whole sequence of events here suggests that at least some people knew ahead of time that the Lord would confound their language, otherwise, the requests from Jared to his brother would have been different ("unconfound us" rather than "don't confound us"; and "where will we go" rather than "now that we've been scattered, where to next").

v34: This is interesting.  I think the general idea is that the tower of Babel is the origin point of the many languages on earth, but the exact wording, even in the Bible is interesting:

Quote

Genesis 11:6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.

And in Ether, "not understand our words" - as if the confounding made it so a person couldn't even understand their own words.  I think Jordan Peterson paralleled this with the present day where people are so divided and use the same words so differently that they don't understand each other - the hearer understands the words used to mean something different than the speaker.

Also, in Genesis, it's the language that's confounded, but in Ether, it's the people who are confounded (which makes more sense to me).  Anywho, it's interesting.  As I recall, the Book of Jasher has more (and interesting) details about the tower of Babel events.  Finally, I had an institute teacher who said that according to some non-scriptural source (that I can't remember anymore), the people could still see the city of Enoch at this point, and were building the tower to reach that.  Which seems even more plausible than that they were trying to get to a heaven they couldn't even see.

v35: This suggests that whatever language the Jaredites spoke was likely more "pure" than other languages.

v38: Alma 37:37 "Counsel with the Lord in all thy doings, and he will direct thee for good; ..."  Be faithful, go where the Lord wants you to go, and you will be blessed in your efforts.

This relationship where Jared comes up with the ideas and sends his brother to go ask the Lord is interesting and strange to me.  Regardless, we can abstract at least one lesson - when your "brother" is nudging you to counsel with the Lord (or otherwise be faithful), accept his suggestions.

v41-43: Just because the Lord has great blessings in store for you, don't expect him to wave a magic wand, fire up the transporter and the replicator and do all the work for you while you sit back and play a video game (or whatever).

v42: "there I will meet thee, and I will go before thee".  Christ always goes before us, in every way.  He is there for us to follow. He was the first-born. He was the first resurrected.  He was the first to keep all God's commands.  He shows the way for all willing to follow.  He goes before.  So follow him and he will lead you to that which is "choice above all".

v43: "And thus I will do unto thee because this long time ye have cried unto me."  Don't give up.  Continue praying, continue following.

Ether 2

v1-3: This is quite the expedition!

v4-7: When the Lord is leading you, don't worry about how long or difficult the journey is.  Trust him to be leading you aright.

v8: Whether or not you're on the land of promise, serve God.

v9-12: Moroni, talking to us.  Repent!

v13-14: A little rest after a long journey might be acceptable to the Lord, but apparently a 4-year vacation and failing to pray the whole time will get you a long lecture (if you're lucky).

v15: Repent early and often.

v18-19: Before you ask for more, make sure you've done / are doing the things the Lord has already instructed.

v19: They clearly understood that you could run out of air, even if they didn't understand more.

v20: The Lord gives them the solution to problem #1 (air).

v23-25: But for problem #2, the Lord asks the brother of Jared to puzzle out some possibilities, and helps him along by ruling out some of them.

Lesson for us: Sometimes the Lord solves our problems.  Sometimes he explains what won't work.  Sometimes he expects us to propose solutions.

Book of Ether.pdf

[zil2]

7 minutes ago, zil2 said:

The whole sequence of events here suggests that at least some people knew ahead of time that the Lord would confound their language

Well, this should not surprise me.  The Lord always warns people and pleads for them to repent before the negative consequences come.  There must have been prophets calling folks to repentance, we just don't have records of that.

[zil2]

24 minutes ago, zil2 said:

Christ always goes before

...We should also put him before all else.  (First great commandment...)

[zil2]

I've just made next week's thread so I can't forget.

 

It's our last thread!  Given the holidays, you might want to rearrange chapters or read ahead some this week, or something...