Thou shalt not kill

[Stephan]

Not sure if the title is brilliant or not but I hope you guys find this interesting.

On my mission I had a couple of times where people asked me how we can believe that God would tell Nephi to kill Laban http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_ne/4/10-18#10

My dad showed me then that the event is actually very biblical.

In Exodus it says Thou shalt not kill http://scriptures.lds.org/en/ex/20/13#13

but then in the next chapter it actually explains it a little better

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/ex/21/12-13#12

Here it clearly states that if God will tell someone to kill another that he also will prepare a place for him where he will be safe. Nephi did end up in a place where he was safe.

So we can see that the even of Nephi killing Laban follows the Bible and the Ten Commandments.

Hope this might help someone somehow someday. LOL

[a-train]

Not to mention the fact that the very prophet whom we thank for the reception of the decalogue killed a man as well.

'And it came to pass in those days, when Moses was grown, that he went out unto his brethren, and looked on their burdens: and he spied an Egyptian smiting an Hebrew, one of his brethren.

And he looked this way and that way, and when he saw that there was no man, he slew the Egyptian, and hid him in the sand.' (Exo. 2:11-12)

-a-train

[Traveler]

The commandment not to kill means that we should never have the desire in our heart to take another (or our own) life. It is not given to us to decide to take a life. But should G-d command - it is the resposibility of those that covenant with G-d to do as he commands.

Has G-d ever commanded that a life be taken? This is an interesting question because all life in under the control of G-d and if he wanted it ended he could do so without bothering any of us. But that misses the point of covenant. In the case of Laban - it is very likely that Laban made a covenant with G-d to protect the brass plates with his life. This means that according to the covenant he must die and Nephi was well impressed on the importance of taking that covenant upon himself concerning the plates.

The Traveler

[CrimsonKairos]

We are allowed to kill other people in a few situations.

1.) Defending ourselves and our families.

2.) Defending our country.

3.) Enforcing criminal laws that are adopted by our government.

The "Thou shalt not kill" command should really be rendered: "Thou shalt not murder." If Jehovah really didn't want anyone to ever kill another person, then why did He command Israel to butcher the inhabitants of the Promised Land after Israel's exodus from Egypt?

[Stampede]

We are allowed to kill other people in a few situations.

1.) Defending ourselves and our families.

2.) Defending our country.

3.) Enforcing criminal laws that are adopted by our government.

The "Thou shalt not kill" command should really be rendered: "Thou shalt not murder." If Jehovah really didn't want anyone to ever kill another person, then why did He command Israel to butcher the inhabitants of the Promised Land after Israel's exodus from Egypt?

Wrong about #3

those people who have comitted serious sins should be given time to fully repent of thier sins. the shedding of innocent blood is such a serious sin it is nearly unforgivable, But what if the prisoner found a Book of Mormon in prison, started reading it and accepted the restored Gospel? what if he was able to fully repent of his sins here on this earth? who are we to stop them from doing so?

We are to abide by the laws of the land, but as for myself i completely oppose the death penalty.

[Dr T]

Wrong about #3

those people who have comitted serious sins should be given time to fully repent of thier sins. the shedding of innocent blood is such a serious sin it is nearly unforgivable, But what if the prisoner found a Book of Mormon in prison, started reading it and accepted the restored Gospel? what if he was able to fully repent of his sins here on this earth? who are we to stop them from doing so?

We are to abide by the laws of the land, but as for myself i completely oppose the death penalty.

"...nearly unforgivable" is the part of the above quote where I do not agree. Jesus' sacrafice is able to cover the sin of murder.

[Stampede]

"...nearly unforgivable" is the part of the above quote where I do not agree. Jesus' sacrafice is able to cover the sin of murder.

I agree with your completely. the only sin that is onforgivable is that against the holy ghost.

The reason i said that is prophets and christ has stated that there is sort of a "rank" to how easy it is to gain forgiveness. and they are (including the unforgivable at the top

1) Denying the Holy ghost once it has had a place in you and you have had the heavens opened unto you.

2) Shedding of innocent blood.

3) Sexual sins -

a) homosexuality

b) adultery

c) masturbation

Ect.....

The interesting thing also is that.... an endowed member of the church who has been sealed in the temple for time and all eternity to a spouse, partaking of the everlasting covenant, Can NOT ever recieve forgiveness for the shedding of innocent blood.

D&C 132:

26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God.

27 The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord.

[Dr T]

Isn't that a contradiction Stampede? If Jesus can forgive all sin (but the one He said he would not) and there is something saying that He can't ever, there is an issue there.

[Stampede]

Isn't that a contradiction Stampede? If Jesus can forgive all sin (but the one He said he would not) and there is something saying that He can't ever, there is an issue there.

No it is not a contradiction.

Jesus Can, but he won't. because he has said so. because We as married, sealed, and endowed members of his church absolutely know better.

[Dr T]

So vs. 27 is saying that the "The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood..." I don't think that is the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit

[Stampede]

So vs. 27 is saying that the "The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood..." I don't think that is the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit

It is though, it says so in that scripture. It says in V26. it is a warning to those who comit murder whereby they shed innocent blood.

....yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be cdelivered unto the buffetings of dSatan unto the day of eredemption, saith the Lord God.

[CrimsonKairos]

Wrong about #3

those people who have comitted serious sins should be given time to fully repent of thier sins.

It is not the job of civil governments to administer salvation. The job of government is to protect the equal rights of its citizens.

...the shedding of innocent blood is such a serious sin it is nearly unforgivable, But what if the prisoner found a Book of Mormon in prison, started reading it and accepted the restored Gospel?

Everyone but sons of perdition will at least go to the Telestial Kingdom. That's where murderers go (see D&C 76). Once someone has murdered, they cannot inherit a degree of glory greater than the lowest degree. Hence there is no reason to reward their evil act by letting them "read scriptures in jail" or mooch off the taxpayers.

what if he was able to fully repent of his sins here on this earth? who are we to stop them from doing so?

Citizens who affirm the value of life by enforcing the execution of murderers.

...prophets and christ has stated that there is sort of a "rank" to how easy it is to gain forgiveness...

1) Denying the Holy ghost once it has had a place in you and you have had the heavens opened unto you.

2) Shedding of innocent blood.

You have this slightly wrong.

In the verses from D&C 132 that you quoted, verse 27 defines "shedding of blood" as blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. In D&C 132:26-27, "shedding innocent blood" does not refer to murdering another mortal.

It refers to the fact that if you deny Jesus even after he appears to you and the Father reveals him to you by the Holy Ghost's power (the surest witness of truth there is), then you would have called for his crucifixion had you lived during New Testament times and hence, are considered guilty of "shedding innocent blood," meaning Christ's, as if you were "crucifiying Christ afresh," or as Jesus says in verse 27, as if you were to "assent unto my death."

The interesting thing also is that.... an endowed member of the church who has been sealed in the temple for time and all eternity to a spouse, partaking of the everlasting covenant, Can NOT ever recieve forgiveness for the shedding of innocent blood.

Again, in this context "shedding innocent blood" refers to denying Christ after the Spirit has revealed him to us. After all, there is only one child of God who was innocent of any sin premortally and mortally, and that is Jesus Christ. Almost everywhere else in scripture, killing in general is referred to as simply "shedding blood."

It is important to note that D&C 132:26-27 defines "shedding innocent blood" as blashpemy against the Holy Ghost.

The unpardonable sin is not murdering our fellow mortals. Murderers go to the Telestial Kingdom (see D&C 76).

[Stampede]

It is not the job of civil governments to administer salvation. The job of government is to protect the equal rights of its citizens.

Everyone but sons of perdition will at least go to the Telestial Kingdom. That's where murderers go (see D&C 76). Once someone has murdered, they cannot inherit a degree of glory greater than the lowest degree. Hence there is no reason to reward their evil act by letting them "read scriptures in jail" or mooch off the taxpayers.

Citizens who affirm the value of life by enforcing the execution of murderers.

You have this slightly wrong.

In the verses from D&C 132 that you quoted, verse 27 defines "shedding of blood" as blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. In D&C 132:26-27, "shedding innocent blood" does not refer to murdering another mortal.

It refers to the fact that if you deny Jesus even after he appears to you and the Father reveals him to you by the Holy Ghost's power (the surest witness of truth there is), then you would have called for his crucifixion had you lived during New Testament times and hence, are considered guilty of "shedding innocent blood," meaning Christ's, as if you were "crucifiying Christ afresh," or as Jesus says in verse 27, as if you were to "assent unto my death."

Again, in this context "shedding innocent blood" refers to denying Christ after the Spirit has revealed him to us. After all, there is only one child of God who was innocent of any sin premortally and mortally, and that is Jesus Christ. Almost everywhere else in scripture, killing in general is referred to as simply "shedding blood."

It is important to note that D&C 132:26-27 defines "shedding innocent blood" as blashpemy against the Holy Ghost.

The unpardonable sin is not murdering our fellow mortals. Murderers go to the Telestial Kingdom (see D&C 76).

about the death penalty, we will have to just agree to disagree. I don't believe that they can only inherit the telestial kingdom.

I get at what you are saying but I would need to do further research before agreeing with you completely.

As for the rest, the context in which 132 regards is after you have entered into the New and Everlasting Covenant. I do have this question. what about infants and abortions? those children are not accountable for their sins so technically they are "innocent blood" because little children are "alive in Christ"

I know the church does deem abortion acceptable in extreme cases such as Rape, Incest, or when the baby and/or Mother's life is at risk of dying. and even then they are told to fast and pray, and council with their bishop about what to do personally

[CrimsonKairos]

Abortion is "like unto" murder, though not considered equivalent as far as I know. Yes, infants can be considered "innocent" in that they haven't done anything because they haven't even been born yet, but my point was that premortally, Jesus was the only child of God who obeyed God perfectly in all things and was innocent in every sense of the word.

As for the death penalty, sure, we can disagree. No prob.

D&C 76 is pretty clear though, that murderers go to the Telestial Kingdom. They cannot inherit exaltation.

[Dr T]

CK,

I'd agree that '...in this context "shedding innocent blood" refers to denying Christ after the Spirit has revealed him to us." is the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit talked about, not the shedding of innocent blood.

[a-train]

The shedding of blood spoken of in D&C 132:26-27 refers to the setting of Christ to an open shame and crucifying Him afresh. Our good man CK is right on the money here.

-a-train