Julie B. Beck and her Talk "Mothers Who Know"

[WillowTheWhisp]

I never said anything about not staying at home with your children. Its exactly what Elphaba said-It was the lack of choices she gave women with that talk. What is wrong with having a career?? I know plenty of women who work with the children. I will more than likely work part time when/if I have children. That way everyone is fulfilled and happy. The children get me to look after them, I am fulfilled with a rewarding career, we can afford to put a roof over our heads-everyone wins. How is this wrong????

Thats a typical response to people who question or disagree-'there must be something wrong with them'. So, explain to me willow, how working part time as a nurse, bringing up your children, and doing the best by your family is a shortcoming?

There is nothing wrong with having a career. I know women who have careers. I also know women who stay at home full time and look after home and children.

I saw the talk as more of an uplifting encouragement to those 'stay at home mums' who put their careers on hold whilst they devote time and energy to bringing up their children. There has been a tendency for women to describe themselves as 'just a housewife' as if that somehow makes them a second class citizen when being a wife and mother is probably the most important thing a woman can do. It involves so many talents and women have long sold themselves short by not even realising their own worth.

I also know women who try to do everything, home, children, career ...... and try to fit 48 hours into a 24 hour day. If you can fit your working life around your children and your husband does the same and you share the housework between you then it can work. Unfortunately in many cases it doesn't because the mother ends up doing far more than she should and wearing herself to a frazzle, or the career takes precedence and someone else brings up her children for her. How sad when the one a child turns to for a hug when they have a scraped knee is the nanny and not the mother.

For me no amount of financial recompense can replace a child's cuddle.

How do working mothers cope with children's illnesses? Do they take time off when their child is ill or has an accident? My daughter was involved in a very serious accident a few years ago and I spent most of the day at her hospital bedside when the other daughter was at school. It was hard enough for me then that someone else collected my youngest daughter from school and fed her before I came home from hospital. I was torn between the two of them.

What about school holidays? Are there employers who accommodate their employees taking time off for school holidays?

You may have noticed that I only have 2 children. We were never fortunate enough to have more. I did lose some and I was an 'older mother' before my first daughter was born. Perhaps that's why they seem so precious to me. However I didn't take offence at any implication I may have perceived in Sister Beck's talk that I am somehow a failure for not having produced more children.

In fact I didn't see her talk as offensive at all and find it very sad how so many people seem to have done so. As I said, to me she was encouraging and praising mothers, mothers who know and understand the Gospel and who teach those principles to their children.

That's another point. If you hand your small children over to day care how do you know what they are being taught in their most formative years? It's bad enough having to send them out into the big bad world when they start school but at least by then they can have had a solid grounding in the gospel from a stable upbringing at home to give then an anchor.

[Elgama]

ok my own view is it was fine no problems with it but Iam a stay at home Mum who reads with her children, does Family Home Evening, my kids outside of a few choice words picked up at Grannys and their Uncles are doing really well. Few years ago with just Ellie I would have echoed many of the previous posts but I now have 2 kids under 5, Iam very isolated and understand why sisters have a problem

I think the problem is that there have been so many lessons in our branch RS lately that have taken the tone we are not doing enough and I have seen the heart ripped out of Mums with 3 or 4 children under the age of 5 who now feel guilty for that half hour they stuck the kids in front of the TV and sat and did nothing my point was they didn't do nothing they were saving their sanity so bedtime didn't descend into chaos and their husband didn't come into a frazzled wife and kids. I was ridiculed by some sisters who reckoned they should be doing Family History or reading scriptures nothing wasn't their best use of times. Its not just our RS I have seen it happen again, and again. This was contrasted two days later by a sermon at a mass I went to by the Bishop of Aberdeen which told Mums they could chill, he gave his congregation permission to not worry about a perfect christmas and to focus of the saviour, everyone walked out feeling good they knew they were either doing well or doing better than they needed to serve the Saviour. As a young Mum I find the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints very family unfriendly, we are encouraged to leave sacrament often, rather than older members of the branch offering to help, we very rarely get talks in general conference that deal with just how difficult it is to be fed of the spirit with a young family - personally I need practical suggestions.

Right now I work 12 hour days, 7 days a week, Sunday is the most difficult of the lot, I come out having battled with a very active tot feeling bruised and exhausted - noone offered to help throughout the full 3 hours. After church the older kids are great they take him off and play with him.

The only member of a General Relief Society Presidency who seemed to want to help the major problem with depression in the church was Chieko Okazaki she had a great balance I would listen to her know how to improve myself but also feel good about herself.

Times have changed - families are often further away from other family members, often in places where they don't know other people very well, and post natel depression is rising in scary proportions.

-Charley

[Elphaba]

Chorley, England Stake must not be in the Universe then because I haven't heard anyone here raising any objections to it at all.

No, it's here, though I did have to look it up on a star chart. I was hoping to find it near Kolob, but alas, no such luck. :)

Elphaba

[the_jason]

I never said anything about not staying at home with your children. Its exactly what Elphaba said-It was the lack of choices she gave women with that talk. What is wrong with having a career?? I know plenty of women who work with the children. I will more than likely work part time when/if I have children. That way everyone is fulfilled and happy. The children get me to look after them, I am fulfilled with a rewarding career, we can afford to put a roof over our heads-everyone wins. How is this wrong????

I just re-read the talk. Sister Beck did not say one time that working outside the home is wrong. She only said what the primary responsibilities of a mother are. If a career gets in the way of being an nurturer, a teacher, and a homemaker then it should be set aside. If it can be done along with being a nurturer, a teacher, and a homemaker, then go for it. She did not give a lack of choices. She did not say what a woman shouldn't do. She only said what a woman should do that is most important. A career is secondary to the role of mother.

[WillowTheWhisp]

I think the problem is that there have been so many lessons in our branch RS lately that have taken the tone we are not doing enough and I have seen the heart ripped out of Mums with 3 or 4 children under the age of 5 who now feel guilty for that half hour they stuck the kids in front of the TV and sat and did nothing my point was they didn't do nothing they were saving their sanity so bedtime didn't descend into chaos and their husband didn't come into a frazzled wife and kids. I was ridiculed by some sisters who reckoned they should be doing Family History or reading scriptures nothing wasn't their best use of times. Its not just our RS I have seen it happen again, and again. This was contrasted two days later by a sermon at a mass I went to by the Bishop of Aberdeen which told Mums they could chill, he gave his congregation permission to not worry about a perfect christmas and to focus of the saviour, everyone walked out feeling good they knew they were either doing well or doing better than they needed to serve the Saviour. As a young Mum I find the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints very family unfriendly, we are encouraged to leave sacrament often, rather than older members of the branch offering to help, we very rarely get talks in general conference that deal with just how difficult it is to be fed of the spirit with a young family - personally I need practical suggestions.

I would say you need more than practical suggestions - you need practical help and I'm quite saddened that you do not find it amongst your Relief Society sisters. Surely someone else could take your children for a little while and give you chance to relax and enjoy the lessons. I know it's difficult to be fed by the spirit when you are constantly concerned about keeping your children under control, amused and quiet. My eldest (now 16) was very difficult as a toddler and my lifesavers at the time were two older boys in the branch who kept her quietly amused during sacrament meeting.

I didn't see Sister Beck telling us to do more and work ourselves to a frazzle. What I heard was that she was telling us not to try to do the impossible but instead of trying to do everything, to choose the best things, the most important things. That was how it locked in so well with the talk by Dallin H Oaks.

Of course there is absolutely nothing wrong with sitting the kids down in front of the TV for half an hour whilst you just put your feet up. We are not supposed to work 24 hours a day. Joseph Smith told people that when he himself was ridiculed for relaxing.

I know some RS Presidencies (ours being one) still don't seem to have got the message and are organising MORE enrichment meetings and MORE activities rather than less as we have been instructed but I use my own common sense and choose to follow the direction of Elder Oaks by simply not going and if they don't like it it is their problem not mine.

I'm really baffled as to how the guidance to do less but do those things to our best ability rather than try to do everything and fail to do everything seems to have caused such an adverse reaction when I'd have expected to hear sisters saying 'thank goodness we don't have to try to be 3 different people all at the same time'

[Elgama]

I would say you need more than practical suggestions - you need practical help and I'm quite saddened that you do not find it amongst your Relief Society sisters. Surely someone else could take your children for a little while and give you chance to relax and enjoy the lessons. I know it's difficult to be fed by the spirit when you are constantly concerned about keeping your children under control, amused and quiet. My eldest (now 16) was very difficult as a toddler and my lifesavers at the time were two older boys in the branch who kept her quietly amused during sacrament meeting.

I didn't see Sister Beck telling us to do more and work ourselves to a frazzle. What I heard was that she was telling us not to try to do the impossible but instead of trying to do everything, to choose the best things, the most important things. That was how it locked in so well with the talk by Dallin H Oaks.

Of course there is absolutely nothing wrong with sitting the kids down in front of the TV for half an hour whilst you just put your feet up. We are not supposed to work 24 hours a day. Joseph Smith told people that when he himself was ridiculed for relaxing.

I know some RS Presidencies (ours being one) still don't seem to have got the message and are organising MORE enrichment meetings and MORE activities rather than less as we have been instructed but I use my own common sense and choose to follow the direction of Elder Oaks by simply not going and if they don't like it it is their problem not mine.

I'm really baffled as to how the guidance to do less but do those things to our best ability rather than try to do everything and fail to do everything seems to have caused such an adverse reaction when I'd have expected to hear sisters saying 'thank goodness we don't have to try to be 3 different people all at the same time'

This is all probably sounding more bitter than I actually am, I got the same message as you, but I understand why Mums are currently getting the wrong message, I am tired frazzled and just don't see how I can do any better than I am right now, but the church just seems to judge me and expect me to do more - I just know that I have several friends in the gospel we are all the same stage in life in various places around the world and they get no practical help during church or just after the birth of their babies. In my own case the novelty wore off my son since my friend had twin sons and noone offered to help me with him after that I also had a miserable little boy because everyone went from cuddling him and kissing him to ignoring him. I understand why it happened but he didn't understand why at nine months if Mummy needed help she could no longer get anyone to hold him whilst she nipped to the loo by herself. He cried his heart out one Sunday and I think it was because the Sunday before he had come in and everyone had passed him round.

Even when I was ill and dizzy a whole class of Relief Society sisters watched whilst I walked my large 1 year old up and down not one offered to help, whilst the sister teaching the lesson told people off for not responding to her questions whilst glaring at me for walking round (should add I need to walk through priesthood if I want to get out). Interestingly when I was at mass 6 people offered to hold my sleeping 4 year old if I wanted to go up to communion, and before she had gone to sleep she had been played with. A lot of it is simply many of our branch are old and too sick to help.... My faith is incredibly flat right now I know the church is true in my head and I know I don't want to let my Heavenly Father down but I just can't feel it in my heart. And when I have a talk that is all about me doing better but with no help to do that its hard to listen to. And I do know of the large group of YSA I was involved with many of us that Iam in touch with do struggle with similar feelings at some point,

-Charley

[WillowTheWhisp]

I may have got this wrong but I don't believe the church is asking you to do things better. The church is asking you to do 'the better things'. And in the particular illustration you gave the message isn't being directed towards you. In other words those people who were so busy concentrating on the lesson were doing a good thing, but if one or more of them had chosen to help you they would have been doing a better thing. Does that make any more sense to you?

It's not the church that's the problem it's just the way some people don't seem to understand what matters most. Like my late husband said, some people are so Heavenly minded they are no earthly use.

[WillowTheWhisp]

I was putting the final touches to my Relief Society lesson last night (based on the talk by Elder Oaks which in my mind is inextricably linked with Sister Beck's talk) when I had one of those 'lightbulb' moments.

Sister Beck said "mothers who know choose motherhood" and I recall somebody saying that didn't make sense because if they were mothers they had already chosen motherhood i.e they had chosen to be mothers. But motherhood isn't about being a mother and just producing as many children as physically possible. She wasn't saying to those women who for whatever reason are not mothers that they have failed because they are seen as not having chosen to be mothers. She wasn't even saying to those who have one child or two children that they have failed because they are not having more children. What she was saying was to mothers, to those who already have children, be it one or one dozen - that the most important part of their lives should be the relationship with that child or children. Mothers who know, know that the relationship with their offspring (alongside their relationship with their eternal partner) is the only eternal thing that matters.

[CrimsonKairos]

Interesting nuance. Has some merit.

[KingDavid]

The week before Sister Beck gave her talk in General Conference, I gave a talk in Sacrament Meeting. I spoke then about the need we have in the Church to keep the commandment to "multiply and replenish (fill) the earth."

Important point. In 1982, the year our oldest daughter was born, there were about 126,000 children of record who were blessed in the Church. There were around 5 million members then. Last April in General Conference, the figure of just 94,000 children of record were named and blessed in the Church, which is a BIG drop from 1982. And yet we have OVER 13 MILLION MEMBERS WORLDWIDE!!!

When ZCMI was in business still, the joke was that that acronym meant Zion's Children Must Increase.

It is no joke anymore—it's the TRUTH!

We need Mormon mothers to bear more children than they are now doing on average. We're hardly one baby per woman per lifetime above gentiles. And their number is about 1.71 for white women in the U.S. AND DECLINING! LDS women are about 2.6 per women.

Satan is prevailing in persuading Saints not to have very many children. This must change. Worldwide, the population is higher than LDS birth rates overall!!

[CrimsonKairos]

A woman should only have a child when she and her husband have talked and agreed that they are equipped mentally and emotionally to handle it. A woman should not keep having babies until she feels she has met some ambiguous "quota" for LDS women.

All things must be done with the Lord's counsel and with mutual agreement within marriage.

That being said...the drop in births of record from 1982 to 2007 is indeed significant.

[sixpacktr]

Willow,

Your insights are fantastic and, IMO, spot on. What greater calling can a woman have? My greatest calling, even if I ever became President of the Church (which will only happen with HF has decided that the church is going so well that even I can hurt it!), will be that of 'father' to my daughters. My career, my hobbies, my contributions to the community, mean diddly squat when compared to how my kids think of me, and my HF's thoughts of my stewardship over them.

I agree with CK that it is up to the wife, husband, and the Lord as to how many kids you have. We had 5 or 6 miscarriages, for whatever reasons, so we wanted a bigger family but couldn't. That is fine, I'm proud and happy of the daughters I have. So none of us can judge the intent of another couple on whether or not they are doing what is right in HF's eyes.

But I do believe that the worship of mammon is taking over the lives and priorities of too many of the Saints, and this drop in birthrate when the membership has grown so much is just a reflection that Satan is blinding people of what is truly important.

[Elphaba]

Why is this issue of having more babies restricted to mothers? Mothers need fathers to have the babies, she can't do it without him. But, it is often the father, with two to three children already, who realizes he cannot handle any more children without exhausting himself. He realizes he would not be able to give a fourth child the love and devotion it would deserve, and he feels that is ultimately the most important thing he can give his children. So he is adamant about not having any more children. I know of three couples where they had two and three children and the father was adamant about not having any more. One ended in divorce over the issue.

So is it better for the children to go through a divorce? Of course this is only an anecdotal example, but it is an example of what can happen if the mother does what Sister Beck tells her to do.

So, my point is, this is not a "mother" issue. This is a "family" issue. The father has as much say as the mother does as to how many children the mother will bear. And that is his right.

And yes I realize Sister Beck made a nod toward those mothers who, for whatever reason, could not have more children. But we all know that was a courtesy nod. The truth is she, and the Church, believe women should be having children no matter what. They should find ways, no matter what. She should be sacrificing to be a mother, no matter what.

I don't have a problem with that, per se. But she is not the only person in the marriage. If she does not have her husband's support, then she should not have more children. She should not defy her husband, nor should she manipulate him into having more children.

And all of the talks insisting mothers have more children should always address the father's role as well.

Elphaba

Edit: I've just read CK's and Six's posts, and they say also stress the role of the father, so I am being redundant. However, my point is I don't hear the official talks about women having children including the father as having an important role within the same talks. What I hear are talks, like Sister Beck's putting the entire responsibility on the mother. That is what I am trying to stress.

I realize, however, that I may not be aware of official talks that do stress both roles equally. I just have never heard of one. E.

[Traela]

I know some RS Presidencies (ours being one) still don't seem to have got the message and are organising MORE enrichment meetings and MORE activities rather than less as we have been instructed but I use my own common sense and choose to follow the direction of Elder Oaks by simply not going and if they don't like it it is their problem not mine.

I hope I don't offend in saying that I don't think you understand how the new Enrichment program is supposed to work. The presidencies are supposed to help organize activities that fill the needs of the sisters. When the new program was announced, they were given the direction to have activities as often as needed.

I remember shortly after the program started, a Church News article showed how sisters in Africa were meeting every week to bake their bread in a communal oven, because that was what they needed. Likewise, if a group of sisters feel the need for a specific time to exercise every week, that's an activity. If some of the older (and maybe younger:)) sisters want to meet regularly to knit booties for the Humanitarian Center, that also counts as an activity. You are NOT expected to attend everything, only those activities that in some way bless your life.

[WillowTheWhisp]

Traela, I think you've missed my point, or perhaps I didn't explain it very well. It isn't me who doesn't understand how the new Enrichment program is supposed to work - it is those RS presidencies who are organising things for the sake of organising things rather than organising things which are needed such as in your example the bread baking.

They organise a whole array of things and then are dismayed when no-one attends some of them. Elder Oaks talked in October Conference about not spreading ourselves too thin, not doing 'good things' just because they are good things but realising that sometimes it's better not to do some good things so we don't miss out on the best things.

What point is there is scheduling a quilting bee if no-one in the Ward feels the need or desire to quilt?

[WANDERER]

Not everyone is going to be a mother. That ship has sailed. That fact isn't painful anymore...I accept it. Im not always sure how to handle social situations where it comes up, usually with the patience of someone who had to resolve it for themselves and is watching others respond to it and I've had just about all of those responses I'm sure. Responding to it as tragic is just not a personal option for the rest of my life as it wouldn't be very productive.

[mckbe]

Elgama, I am sorry you are suffering. One woman cannot do it all. We need help. I heard somebody say that "we can always do better", but I think it is dangerous to say that to women like us who tend toward over motivation, not under motivation. If we are already over focused that just pushes us over the edge. I heard what I needed to hear from Beck and Oaks talk. "Simplify", "Do Less".. Yeah!

“Don’t let things that matter most be at the mercy of things that matter, but least. “ ~Stephen R. Covey

[mckbe]

How do you deal with unsolicited criticism and pressure from fellow saints in the church?

For example: Our ward was having a fund run. A friend of mine is a marathon runner and dressed for the occasion. The problem occurred when everyone gathered at a small snack table. It was then she wished she had a t-shirt handy. Two sisters approached to inform her about ‘modesty’. I mean, were do we get off on policing each other?

My friend said: “I think I will host a new run.. the PR Thong Run. On a Sunday afternoon. With caffeinated cola beverages. Then my status as community exhibitionist will be an indisputable fact.” lol

I appreciate this subject and would like to compare notes with you here Mary, Martha & Me. My topics include setting boundaries, learning how to say 'no', perfectionism, relational aggression, pressure, the gentle art of verbal self defense.. How do you deal with unsolicited criticism from fellow saints in the church?

[KingDavid]

The point on having children is this—

The Lord grants to us according to our desires. While we are not to run faster than we have strength, yet we are encouraged to be diligent, that we therewith might win the prize.

Also, we are to do the works of Abraham. Consider these words the Lord spoke through Isaiah—

1 HEARKEN to me, ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek the LORD: look unto the rock whence ye are hewn, and to the hole of the pit whence ye are digged.

2 Look unto Abraham your father, and unto Sarah that bare you: for I called him alone, and blessed him, and increased him.

(Old Testament | Isaiah 51:1 - 2)

What are the works of Abraham (that include the works of Sarah—for they two had become one flesh)? When Abraham was 99, and Sarah 10 years younger, they were told that they would yet have a son.

9 And they said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent.

10 And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him.

11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women.

12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?

13 And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?

14 Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.

15 Then Sarah denied, saying, I laughed not; for she was afraid. And he said, Nay; but thou didst laugh.

(Old Testament | Genesis 18:9 - 15)

Ironically, "Isaac" means both "to laugh" and "to rejoice", as I understand Hebrew.

I can't help but thinking that Sarah having a baby at 90 must be the equivalent of a much younger woman having many more children.

I can't help but wonder that though, yes, indeed, the decision as to how many children a woman will conceive and bear is up to the woman, her husband and the Lord.

But, I can't help but think that if the Lord were involved in this decision, that many more children would be born to many, if not to most, LDS couples!

As President Kimball pointed out more than once, the commandment given by the Lord in the Garden of Eden, again to Noah and his wife and sons and daughters-in-law, as well as to every couple sealed in the House of the Lord, to multiply and 'replenish' (fill) the earth has never been rescinded.

I would recommend reading President Kimball's story given in "Faith Precedes the Miracle" (if I remember correctly) how that whenever the Lord has a continent to be discovered, a wrong to be righted, a church to be restored, he does so by sending a baby into the world.

If Pharoah was a wicked man for killing the newborn sons of Israel, and if Herod the Great was so wicked for trying to kill the infant Jesus, by slaughtering children under two years of age in Judea, how 'righteous' can couples be who try to prevent the Lord's work from going on by selfishly and unwisely limiting the number of children they allow into their family?

Furthermore, for a religion that teaches that our highest achievable attainment would be to become gods and goddesses, where we can have an infinite number of children through eternity, do you really think that couples who unduly limit the number of children they have in mortality will be blessed with an infinite number of children in immortality? (I don't think so)!

The health, physical and mental, of both mother and father, of course, always need to be taken into consideration. But my wife and I had most of our children in the 1980's and 1990's (one more in 2000), and we even had pre-adolescent girls asking my wife when she was pregnant when she was going to have her "tubes tied"!?!

Why? Their parents had taught them by their own practice. We heard over and over and over and over in our ward and in neighboring wards— I don't want to be changing diapers at 40! I can't wait to get the kids out of the house. I'm not having anymore children after 30! I want to start enjoying life before I turn 50, etc, etc, etc.

Then and now, after one, two or maybe three, (occasionnally four) children, we heard/hear, "This is the caboose. This is the last one. I can't take this anymore." Etc, ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

I condemn no one for having any or more children. Their desires, their words, their actions will either justify them or condemn them at the judgement day. They will receive back again according to their desires. They shall reap either reward or punishment for what they did, or for what they did not do.

However, I will say that I am grateful for those who go the extra mile. While both of my parents were each the first of five children in their parents' families, my dad's parents were each the 9th of 9 and 13th of 13 children respectively (grandfather and grandmother). My paternal grandmother's mother died of a brain tumor before she turned one.

On my mother's side, her father was the 6th of 8 children. My maternal grandmother was the first of five, but was conceived out of wedlock. Her parents did the right thing and were married (though her father had a bad attitude toward her all of her life).

I am the 6th of 8 children in my parents' family. My wife the 11th of 12 (of her father), and the 9th of 10 of her mother's children. My mother-in-law (who is still alive), married my father-in-law when she was 27 or 28. She had 10 children in 13 years!

My wife and I, from before we got married, were determined to return the favor. We talked about having maybe 10, 12 or even 14 children. I grew up on a street where there was a family of 14 children. Were there issues like overworked parents, messy home, etc? You betcha. The husband died in 94. His wife is still alive. She said that she was able to bear having children more easily than most women. So, certainly, such numbers aren't expected of everyone—not necessarily of ANY one!!!

Again, God grants unto us according to our desires. The rich get richer, in either children or money. And money you "can't take with you!"

I recommend seeking for that which does not perish. My wife and I hope to achieve exaltation. And, we hope and work to encourage our nine children to work toward that themselves. We like being together as a family. We joy and rejoice in each other's company.

Do I think one must have a large family to obtain exaltation? Not necessarily. I tend to suppose it may help increase my chances, however. I have found that the "wisdom of the world" indeed does perish. And the "wisdom of the prudent" shall be hid. I have found that the Lord has blessed me, even been merciful to me, because I was cheerfully willing to bring into our family and support and raise more of his choice children.

A man told me when I was still in high school— It is not the cost of living that is so high, as it is the cost of high living. We have relatively little in comparison to many others. But, their stocks, their bonds, their 401K's and retirement plans, etc, won't go with them.

In fact, if our economy collapses because we don't have enough workers (supposing we don't allow in any more illegal immigrants, and no where near enough legal ones), the 1.71 children per white woman per lifetime in the U.S. will either result in a massive downturn in our economy (and then no one will "prosper in the land") or in the children of Lamanite and Nephite seeds (mostly Latino) who will keep God's first commandment given to mankind, and indeed "the meek will inherit the earth" (land).

No one is more meek than a baby. And those who have more of them than others, will, thereby, I believe "inherit the earth", for their children, by sheer numbers, shall possess and hold it!

[Elgama]

Traela, I think you've missed my point, or perhaps I didn't explain it very well. It isn't me who doesn't understand how the new Enrichment program is supposed to work - it is those RS presidencies who are organising things for the sake of organising things rather than organising things which are needed such as in your example the bread baking.

They organise a whole array of things and then are dismayed when no-one attends some of them. Elder Oaks talked in October Conference about not spreading ourselves too thin, not doing 'good things' just because they are good things but realising that sometimes it's better not to do some good things so we don't miss out on the best things.

What point is there is scheduling a quilting bee if no-one in the Ward feels the need or desire to quilt?

actually we have a quilting group only 2 attend I also attended before I had Gabey last year - it was a fantastic time I got to know those two sisters really well, and it gave us 3 what we need. Personally as a Stay At Home Mom I need more not less time to socialise at church - time to be with other adults. I struggle with just the one meeting a quarter it was my only night out - now I have to look outside of church to replace it.

-Charley

[WANDERER]

Liked the Mary, Martha and Me blog. I think that's exactly it.

[Traela]

actually we have a quilting group only 2 attend I also attended before I had Gabey last year - it was a fantastic time I got to know those two sisters really well, and it gave us 3 what we need. Personally as a Stay At Home Mom I need more not less time to socialise at church - time to be with other adults. I struggle with just the one meeting a quarter it was my only night out - now I have to look outside of church to replace it.

-Charley

I think it takes a RS presidency a while to figure out what people are truly interested in, rather than what the sisters SAY they are interested in. Our ward goes keeps going thru a cycle where the RS tries to organize a whole bunch of things, most of which fall apart, then they step back for a while.

Perhaps a better plan would be for more individual sisters to step up and say, "I'm planning to do *this* on *this day*. Anyone who is interested is welcome to join me."

[MorningStar]

Since this talk was given to everyone, I saw it as being addressed to everyone and not just the women. It wasn't given in Women's Conference.

I have some friends and relatives whose husbands don't value what they do unless they make money. Keeping a nice home and raising the kids just doesn't seem that important to them. My mom stayed home with us kids until we were all in school, then she worked at our school full time. She made our lunches every day, kept a very tidy house that people loved to come to, made us wonderful meals every night, and when it became difficult for her to work later, my dad would get very grumpy with her when she wasn't bringing money in because he wanted the extra things in life like vacations. There were times I wished my mom would go on strike so my dad would realize how much she does. No. When she's mad at him, she crushes the chips in his lunch. I said, "How about this? DON'T MAKE HIS LUNCH!"

A friend's husband said to her, "I wish I could stay home and play all day" when they had their son. He doesn't seem to respect what a challenge it is to stay home and raise children. Oddly enough, he complains if he has to watch their son for an hour. She worked full time and put him through law school and he had the nerve to complain when the house wasn't perfect. He would come home, find the one thing that wasn't done and say, "I can't believe you didn't vacuum. So and so's wife keeps a clean house and she works." Well so and so helped his wife around the house.

Another friend wanted to stop doing daycare. She felt like she didn't get to spend quality time with her own kids and she couldn't ever take them places during the day. She spent the summers in her hot, stuffy house when she wanted to take them to the beach. When she said she wanted to quit, her husband said, "You don't want to contribute to the family???" She is an awesome mom and wife! She ran their home very well, she always had the laundry folded and put away, she made his lunches and dinners, canned food from their garden, gave service to others, etc., and he just didn't see enough value in that. Then when she wanted more children, he said he only wanted two so they could go on vacations, he wouldn't discuss it, wouldn't pray about it, and then he went and got a vasectomy when their second child was not even a year old.

I liked that Sis. Beck reminded us all that having a family is part of our beliefs. Trying to get rich and not have expensive children is not. Keeping up with the Jones is not supposed to be something we want either. Our family is our greatest treasure. My in-laws had 9 children and they love being with them more than anything else in this world. My father-in-law says the best part of his life is watching his grandchildren. We had a family reunion at a campsite and he said it was a wonderful time for him just to watch the kids play. They lost their first baby right after birth. My mother-in-law was in so much grief, her body just shut down and she didn't have a period for 8 years. They adopted their daughter and a few years later they adopted my husband. They were told they would never be able to have anymore babies. Then she went in for gall bladder surgery and they massaged her uterus while she was under. Ten months later they had their daughter, a year later another daughter, a year later a son, another year later another son. They thought they were done. Oops. Years later another son and then another son years later when she was 45. Of course, they got a lot of negative feedback, but what a wonderful family they are. They could never wish away one of their children. My sister-in-law thinks her mom never got to fulfill her dreams, but my mother-in-law said all she ever wanted was to be a wife and mom. It's what she loves. My sister-in-law is career oriented, wants to be a millionaire, and she didn't want the one daughter she had by accident. It's sad because she doesn't really hide that from her. They have a very strained relationship. At Christmas, she asked us all in front of her daughter, "What makes people want to reproduce? I don't get it." Whenever anyone in the family announces they are pregnant, she becomes furious and says, "You can't afford that!" or "You have to live your life first!" My brother-in-law said, "That's what I want to do with my life." She is also an incredibly generous person and the kind of person you want on your side if someone has wronged you. She just doesn't have a testimony of multiplying and replenshing the earth. We still love her though. It was funny the last time we announced we were pregnant. My husband called his parents and he didn't know his sister was there visiting (from out of state). He started panicking because he didn't want to talk to her. I played an April Fool's joke right after we had our third. I made it pretty obvious that it was a joke when I sent out this mass e-mail telling everyone I was pregnant again, but she still called my mother-in-law and "went ballistic". She asked, "What day is it?" "Uhhhhhh ..." "April 1st." Sucker!!!!!

I think some people took from this talk, "Women should clean, have babies, and stay home." That's not how it spoke to me. What I heard was, "Children are important. Someone has to be around to meet all of their needs and teach them the gospel or else no one else will. Houses don't clean themselves, laundry doesn't fold itself, and meals don't cook themselves. It is a sacrifice to raise a family and it is worth it. It is a happier home when we don't live in chaos."

I have my own struggles keeping an organized home and it's a constant battle. I know that we are all happier when it's not a total mess. I don't think it has to be perfect, but it leads to contention when no one can find the things they need. To me, clutter is like visual noise. I love to sit in the temple. It's quiet, peaceful, and there is no clutter, nothing to trip over, etc. If it looked like my living room, I don't think I would have the same experience. :) Obviously our home can't be like the temple in every way though.

When Sis. Beck said that LDS women should be the best homemakers in the world, I didn't think that meant that we should be in a clean house competition, but our homes should look nice and be a place where the spirit can dwell. I just had this funny memory of this guy I dated years ago. One day he told me, "I have to clean my room. I don't feel the Spirit in there anymore." I thought that was interesting that it affected him like that. Also, I think part of being a good homemaker is getting your whole family to help! I know women today whose mothers did everything and they just don't like to clean. They had it sooooo good growing up and now they're faced with the ugly reality that their house is going to be a mess unless they clean it. My cousins have admitted this openly. Their mom didn't make them to anything. My cousin said to her brother, "I think that's why you're so lazy." He said, "Yeah, you're probably right." I was cracking-up that he wasn't offended by that.

All right. End of ramble.

[sixpacktr]

Morning Star,

very good 'ramble'. I appreciated your comments.

[MorningStar]

Thanks, Sixpacktr!