Why do ANTIS attack the Church?

[prisonchaplain]

As one of a few evangelicals on this board, I often encounter this question: Why do you people oppose us so much? Yes, there are doctrinal differences, but we have faith the same Jesus, we have the same morality codes, and if you believe that faith in Christ is enough for salvation--well, we've got lots of that?

Indeed, a Barna poll recently revealed that more than a third of LDS adherents answered a series of religious questions in a way that would fit an evangelical definition of being born again.

So, why do the Tanners do what they do? Why did the late Walter Martin spend so much time "exposing Mormonism?" Why do Protestants and Catholics almost universally look upon your church with skepicism?

IMHO, a parallel can be drawn between what Joseph Smith did to Christianity and what Jesus did to Judaism. Jesus proclaimed that the religious establishment had gotten it wrong. There was too much focus on intricate ritual, doctrine, and the minutia of does and don'ts, and not enough on loving God and neighbor. Of course, he also declared that he was the Messiah.

The ruckus that developed lasted approximately two generations, and eventually the followers of Jesus were put out of the Temple. Branded heretics, the had to develop separately from "traditional Judaism." Rather than calling themselves a RESTORATION, they proclaimed themselves, through Christ, to be a FULFILLMENT.

To this day, the Jewish response is firm and unwavering. Check this site out:

The Challenge of Missionaries and Cults -- Jews for Judaism

Amongst the Orthodox, it is better, in the view of parents, that a child declares himself an atheist than a Christian. Christians, after all, worship a false god. An atheist might yet come to his senses, and return to the covenant.

Like "Anti" groups, there really aren't that many Jewish anti-missionary organizations. And while you might feel that there are many anti-LDS groups, in comparison to the Protestant and Catholic communities as a whole (over 2 billion strong), such groups are very small.

Either Jesus was the Messiah or he was a false prophet (as the Talmud declared in the 500s). Either Joseph Smith was a true prophet and restored the church, or he wasn't. And peoples responses have been rather similar to these two sets of questions, imho.

THOUGHTS?

[HiJolly]

As one of a few evangelicals on this board, I often encounter this question: Why do you people oppose us so much? Yes, there are doctrinal differences, but we have faith the same Jesus, we have the same morality codes, and if you believe that faith in Christ is enough for salvation--well, we've got lots of that?

Indeed, a Barna poll recently revealed that more than a third of LDS adherents answered a series of religious questions in a way that would fit an evangelical definition of being born again.

So, why do the Tanners do what they do? Why did the late Walter Martin spend so much time "exposing Mormonism?" Why do Protestants and Catholics almost universally look upon your church with skepicism?

IMHO, a parallel can be drawn between what Joseph Smith did to Christianity and what Jesus did to Judaism. Jesus proclaimed that the religious establishment had gotten it wrong. There was too much focus on intricate ritual, doctrine, and the minutia of does and don'ts, and not enough on loving God and neighbor. Of course, he also declared that he was the Messiah.

The ruckus that developed lasted approximately two generations, and eventually the followers of Jesus were put out of the Temple. Branded heretics, the had to develop separately from "traditional Judaism." Rather than calling themselves a RESTORATION, they proclaimed themselves, through Christ, to be a FULFILLMENT.

To this day, the Jewish response is firm and unwavering. Check this site out:

The Challenge of Missionaries and Cults -- Jews for Judaism

Amongst the Orthodox, it is better, in the view of parents, that a child declares himself an atheist than a Christian. Christians, after all, worship a false god. An atheist might yet come to his senses, and return to the covenant.

Like "Anti" groups, there really aren't that many Jewish anti-missionary organizations. And while you might feel that there are many anti-LDS groups, in comparison to the Protestant and Catholic communities as a whole (over 2 billion strong), such groups are very small.

Either Jesus was the Messiah or he was a false prophet (as the Talmud declared in the 500s). Either Joseph Smith was a true prophet and restored the church, or he wasn't. And peoples responses have been rather similar to these two sets of questions, imho.

THOUGHTS?

Very nice post. I agree.

HiJolly

[WANDERER]

I have problems using a road map on what not to believe in..it makes me wonder what the destination is. I'd rather approach things from the other angle.

[the_jason]

Your comparison of Jesus Christ and Joseph Smith is right on. People felt that Jesus couldn't leave well enough alone. He came and did away with the law of Moses and instituted a higher law. Joseph Smith did virtually the same thing, saying that no church on the earth at that time was correct, and bringing forth a new "bible." The persecution continues today, albeit in less violent forms, but still just as hurtful. In my opinion, this persecution happens for two reasons. One, people are afraid of change. They don't want to hear that what they've been doing is now suddently wrong. Two, they know we're actually right, but don't want to change or take responsibility for their actions.

I like to think back to the lives of Christ and the Prophet Joseph and think of all they endured to fulfill their missions. Nobody will ever come close the the level of persecution that they endured, yet they did it willingly, with an eye single to the glory of God, and God only. Oh how I can't wait to meet them and thank them.

[Mountaingirl]

I have a hard time with the word, "attack."

I think people learn things about the past of the church that their leaders didn't teach them and they feel lied to. When you feel lied to you try to help others...

I certainly didn't see it coming when I learned of the real way Joseph translated the plates! It wasn't taught to me that way, and I had a hard time with it for a while. I discussed it with everyone to help my testimony, and people assumed I was trying to attack the church. Not true.

Its a matter of perception.

[the_jason]

I certainly didn't see it coming when I learned of the real way Joseph translated the plates!

The real way? Please enlighten me.

[Shell72]

Your comparison of Jesus Christ and Joseph Smith is right on. People felt that Jesus couldn't leave well enough alone. He came and did away with the law of Moses and instituted a higher law. Joseph Smith did virtually the same thing, saying that no church on the earth at that time was correct, and bringing forth a new "bible." The persecution continues today, albeit in less violent forms, but still just as hurtful. In my opinion, this persecution happens for two reasons. One, people are afraid of change. They don't want to hear that what they've been doing is now suddently wrong. Two, they know we're actually right, but don't want to change or take responsibility for their actions.

I like to think back to the lives of Christ and the Prophet Joseph and think of all they endured to fulfill their missions. Nobody will ever come close the the level of persecution that they endured, yet they did it willingly, with an eye single to the glory of God, and God only. Oh how I can't wait to meet them and thank them.

Do you not see a difference between Joseph Smith and Jesus? Jesus was the son of God. Joseph Smith was a normal man who spoke of a vision he had. There is a big difference there in my opinon...

[prisonchaplain]

I have a hard time with the word, "attack."

I think people learn things about the past of the church that their leaders didn't teach them and they feel lied to. When you feel lied to you try to help others...

I certainly didn't see it coming when I learned of the real way Joseph translated the plates! It wasn't taught to me that way, and I had a hard time with it for a while. I discussed it with everyone to help my testimony, and people assumed I was trying to attack the church. Not true.

Its a matter of perception.

I support a missionary couple that focusses on presenting the Messiah, Yeshua to the Jewish people of Saint Louis. They are not Anti-Jewish, and I do not see them as attacking Judaism.

See there site: About MESSIAH ST. LOUIS

The rabbis would beg to differ, though. Yes, it is a matter of perception.

[Mountaingirl]

The real way? Please enlighten me.

It sounds like you are implying that I don't know what I am talking about. I do. You don't know what I am talking about? A seer stone in a top hat?

[the_jason]

Do you not see a difference between Joseph Smith and Jesus? Jesus was the son of God. Joseph Smith was a normal man who spoke of a vision he had. There is a big difference there in my opinon...

Of course. I don't view them as equals. Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He's diety. He IS God. Joseph was just a man called to do God's work. John Taylor did say that Joseph Smith did more for mankind then anyone else on earth, save Jesus Christ. In doing more for manking he endured great persecution. Not as much as Christ, but persecution nonetheless. I'm sorry if you thought I viewed them as equals. They are both great men, but Christ was more than just a great man. He's God.

[the_jason]

It sounds like you are implying that I don't know what I am talking about. I do. You don't know what I am talking about? A seer stone in a top hat?

I didn't imply you didn't know what you were talking. I was merely asking you to clarify. Are you referring to the Urim and Thummin?

[PentiumInside]

The real way? Please enlighten me.

I certainly didn't see it coming when I learned of the real way Joseph translated the plates! It wasn't taught to me that way, and I had a hard time with it for a while. I discussed it with everyone to help my testimony, and people assumed I was trying to attack the church. Not true.

That kind of sentiment, in my experience usually means this:

If science can't explain it,it must be false ( unless its in the Bible, then any crazy explaination at all will suffice)

IMHO, a parallel can be drawn between what Joseph Smith did to Christianity and what Jesus did to Judaism.

I use that as well, its very applicable.

However I also like to stress that just as Jesus didn't come to destroy the law but to fulfill it, Joseph being called as a prophet and start the Church in the latter days was in no means an assault on the Christians of the day. To the contrary, the apostasy was foretold for thousands of years and the time for the correction had come. Christians as individuals were doing "all they could" with what gospel they had been givin. And in most cases that view would apply today as well, IMO

[Canuck Mormon]

It sounds like you are implying that I don't know what I am talking about. I do. You don't know what I am talking about? A seer stone in a top hat?

Does the way he translated it change the translation somehow? It doesn't make it any less true, in my opinion.

I think the term attack is more in how some information is presented (standing on a street corner yelling at us). As to why they do it, I have no idea. Some, I'm sure, think they are trying to "save" us. I've been lucky, I haven't had to deal with any real "Mormon Bashers". I have clarified some misconceptions that some people had, but it was always in a discussion, no yelling.

[PentiumInside]

I didn't imply you didn't know what you were talking. I was merely asking you to clarify. Are you referring to the Urim and Thummin?

No she is referring to the seer stone. It was used as a replacement to the U&T when it became to bulky and dangerous to translate with during the times of intense persecution. I can see God allowing such things, after all, the Bible has some outlandish sounding stuff that blows that away in terms of "craziness" that we all buy as true. :)

[HiJolly]

No she is referring to the seer stone. It was used as a replacement to the U&T when it became to bulky and dangerous to translate with during the times of intense persecution. I can see God allowing such things, after all, the Bible has some outlandish sounding stuff that blows that away in terms of "craziness" that we all buy as true. :)

Brigham Young stated:

"Dec. 27 1841: I met with the Twelve at Brother Joseph's. He conversed with

us in a familiar manner on a variety of subjects, and explained to us the

Urim and Thummim which he found with the plates, called in the Book of

Mormon the Interpreters. He said that every man who lived on the earth was

entitled to a seer stone, and should have one, but they are kept from them

in consequence of their wickedness, and most of those who do find one make

an evil use of it; he showed us his seer stone."

HiJolly

[PentiumInside]

he showed us his seer stone."

If I recall correctly, the church still has it too :)

This is where I would normally insert a comment about seeing MY seer stone but people might get offended :lol:

[Elphaba]

The persecution continues today, albeit in less violent forms, but still just as hurtful. In my opinion, this persecution happens for two reasons.

What persecution? Are you or your family in danger of being put out into the bitter cold? Are you in danger of being tied to a tree and being whipped so hard you almost die from it? Are you still tied up to that tree, in agony, while your best friend does die, tied to the tree next to you?

Are your children in danger of being called “nits “ before being murdered in cold blood? Have you ever been put out of your house by mobbers, while they torch it, realizing every single thing you own is in that house?

That is true persecution. In my opinion, to call what is happening today "persecution" is a mockery of what the early members of the Church suffered during the early days of the Church. I can’t begin to tell you how much I admire these early members of TCOJCOLDS, and their commitment to their god, to his commandments, to their leader Brigham Young, and to their astonishing accomplishment of "turning the desert into a rose."

The Mormons, however, are not entirely blameless. They often gave as good as they got, when they could, though their participation in these confrontations was never taught in my Sunday School lessons. Taking the more literal history lessons taught me the issues were not so black and white as I had been taught, and were not even that gray. Rather, the colors ranged from bright, rich purple, to red, white and blue, to a vast blue with gold borders, with the words "UTAH," and "INDUSTRY" on it. What could be more perfect?"

The persecution continues today, albeit in less violent forms, but still just as hurtful. In my opinion, this persecution happens for two reasons.

Again, the Church has not been persecuted for over 100 years, and this “persecution complex” is embarrassing. It’s as if a grown man keep blaming his parents because he can’t keep hold down a job. The Church is so far beyond that, and there is no persecution in this story whatsoever. If anything, the people who take advantage of the Church are the ones who cause the Church the problems.

Are publications the enemy." I've heard some say so, and I don't agree. But I won't go into that here. Does it plant a seed? Yes it does.

But the horrific persecution the early pioneers experienced is so beyond horrifying that I bristle when I see modern generations try to compare the two --there is no comparison.

One, people are afraid of change. They don't want to hear that what they've been doing is now suddenly wrong. Two, they know we're actually right, but don't want to change or take responsibility for their actions.

I’m not sure who you’re talking about here. Who are the “people” afraid of change, and who is the 73 two who think this is true, but I’m not sure blaming the member is appropriate. My mother, at 73, still believes so many of the folkloric beliefs that are only “prophets expressing their own opinion.” For example, she emphatically believes African American should not have received the priesthood yet. There is a reason for this--this is what she was taught for approximately 71 years! Yet she’s supposed to suddenly know it is not doctrine and understand it’s not doctrine and never was.

Is this an example of what you’re talking about, or have I totally misread you?

Thank you for reading my "dissertation" if you have made it this far.

Elphaba

[PentiumInside]

That is true persecution. In my opinion, to call what is happening today persecution is, in a mockery of what the early members of the Church suffered during the early days of the Church. I can’t begin to tell you how much I admire these people their commitment to their god, to his commandments, to their leader in Brigham Young, and to their industrious. It always there. I seriously doubt that I could have done what they did.

Absolutely right IMO. I would have shot you in your face and fed you to my livestock if I was alive in those days. Maybe the Lord DOES put us where we need to be :) But then again, I probly would have done the "right thing" and done nothing like 99% of early saints did as well, who knows.

My mother, at 73, still believes so many of the folkloric beliefs that are only “prophets expressing their own opinion.” For example, she emphatically believes African American should not have received the priesthood yet. There is a reason for this--this is what she was taught for approximately 71 years! Yet she’s supposed to suddenly know it is not doctrine and understand it’s not doctrine and never was.

Tell your Grandma to follow her prophet when he says Things are different. And yes, the reason is...the prophet prayed and the Lord said "change it" good enough for me, and should be good enough for EVERY other LDS, whether they like it or not.

[Shell72]

Why was the_jason banned? What did he do?

[WillowTheWhisp]

I was just wondering that too. I find myself agreeing with his posts and so wonder if that means I'm due to be banned.

I'm also a little puzzled about the reference to what Joseph really did with the gold plates. Is there something I'm missing here?

[Canuck Mormon]

Why was the_jason banned? What did he do?

He's on a 24hr "time-out" for using inappropriate language, and no, it wasn't me that did it.

[Shell72]

He's on a 24hr "time-out" for using inappropriate language, and no, it wasn't me that did it.

It wasn't the Joseph stuff was it? I just don't want to get in trouble..

[Canuck Mormon]

NO, it was in a different thread. Don't worry, your fine, for now!!!!

[Shell72]

NO, it was in a different thread. Don't worry, your fine, for now!!!!

Phew!!! :)

[Guest Malcolm]

"Well beloved; I encourage you to place all your energy and the portion of intelligence the Lord has so freely given you onto His service". (my grand mother) Speculation is the mother of disenchantment since unless it is categorically sated by the prophets it could very well be the contrary of what we expect or want.

There is enough in the the current written revelations to study ponder and apply to try and emulate our Savior in our quest for perfection. I would caution against wandering into theologically uncharted territory.

Cheers!!