An Educational Invitation

[MorningStar]

So, some people in our ward invited us over to watch a documentary about the Federal Reserve, how it started, how it's unconstitutional, how our dollar is going to tank because of it, etc. Based on my knowledge of their opinions, I had some ideas of how this night was going to turn out and I was right. They expected me to believe it like gospel. Everything in it could've been correct, but I don't just take videos as fact. It also promoted Ron Paul as I expected.

So I took one for the team. Everyone received an invitation to come watch it and they are frustrated no one accepted it or were asking, "Is this political?" They wanted to warn everyone about how we're going to enter a depression. I don't really understand the point because what the heck do they expect us to do about it? I don't know. We've been told to be prepared for so many years and I don't see any point in panicking everyone. They lost $2000 in the stock market last week and they think this is a definite sign that the depression is coming and are about to withdraw everything from their 401K to pay off their debt. My view is: The market goes up, the market goes down, the market goes up again. That seems to be how it's gone for so long. I'm no financial expert.

I was going to blow this off, but my husband became morbidly curious and I went there with a sense of dread. I knew something would set me off and I had to tell this guy I was not going to discuss the Iraq war with him and other things. My brother served there a couple years ago. He asked, "Does your brother know how global politics works?" Something like that. I said, "Well, he was a policial science major, so I'm assuming he would know something about it." He kept asking questions. I said, "I do not want to discuss this. Change the subject." He recently told his wife that there are no terrorists, that the government was behind 9/11, etc. He states this as fact and that's just not something people can say to me without me getting upset.

Anyway, they asked for my opinion and I told them it is not a good idea to invite everyone over from the ward to watch this movie because not everyone is going to agree with it. I said, "It doesn't give any opposing views." He said, "Why would you need it? You're living it." I said, "No, I would like to hear from people who think the Federal Reserve is good and why. I don't take videos at face value, especially when they start with a close up of Alan Greenspan's mouth moving in slow motion. It's too Godmaker's style to me." I also explained that things aren't always as they seem. Look at the PBS documentary. It was stated that Brigham Young ordered the MMM and it went undisputed. I told him, "People thought that statement was fact just because someone who claimed to be an expert said it. This is why I don't accept videos as fact. I like to research both sides."

He said, "You can't argue with facts though. You can't argue with the truth." I said, "That's what anti-Mormons say to me. We come to different conclusions though and don't agree about what the "facts" are." I found it very arrogant of him to expect us to lap this up just because he showed it to us. We listened to his commentary the whole time and I bit my tongue. After I gave my opinion, he asked, "Did you listen to the whole thing?" UGH!

He looked annoyed. I don't care. He has his own perceptions and he can't expect everyone in the ward to agree with him or share the ways he interprets The Book of Mormon to support his theories.

I'm glad I said something instead of telling him what he wanted to hear. Hey, he might be 100% correct about the Federal Reserve, but I would like to be respected in my wishes to hear both sides. I get annoyed when people have conspiracy theories and THEY know better but other people don't. Well how do they know they know? They're called theories for a reason.

[FrankJL]

Was this guy in these videos by any chance?

[MorningStar]

Uh, I can't see the image. I see a red X. There might've been a red X in the video.

[FrankJL]

Its alex jones. He makes all sorts of movies that sound like what you saw.

[MorningStar]

Hmm. I don't remember an Alex Jones. I'll look it up.

[drjme]

H

ey, he might be 100% correct about the Federal Reserve, but I would like to be respected in my wishes to hear both sides. I get annoyed when people have conspiracy theories and THEY know better but other people don't. Well how do they know they know? They're called theories for a reason.

You do hear the other side of the story, everyday on the news, in the paper where you are taught what to believe by the media (owned by big business, acting in the interest of big business). this is why the internet is so awesome, it allows all views to be heard, it allows the 'little people' and 'the peasants' to communicate, the world over.

but remember, The difference is between 'conspiracy theory' and 'conspiracy fact', for instance it is fact that:

-the fed is a 'privately owned bank', acting in the interest of it's 'shareholders', not a govt institution.

-the fed creates money out of thin air and loans it to the govt at interest

-It is unconstitutional.

If these facts are not enough to get you wanting to search further to learn for yourself (your aren't supposed to just believe in the video), then it is already lost, because already you have formed opinions on assumptions that aren't correct. Especially when the saints have been told to 'befriend the constitution' and uphold it.

I assume the movie you watched was 'America:from freedom to fascism'.

firstly these movies are made somewhat 'entertaining' because who, of the general population is going to be interested in it if isn't entertainment for the masses? movies like these are only glancing on a lot of real issues that will require further study, only there to create an awareness on the subject.

Unfortunately in conversation with many people on these issues, they dismiss the whole conversation with 'the tinfoil hat' line. but people only use that when they don't have a constructive argument to push their point.

My bet is though (and I don't mean to be rude) is that you will dismiss the info given to you in the video, and not go and research any information for either side of the argument for yourself. So it is with so many. Please prove me wrong.

Yep sure there is a LOAD of rubbish out there, crazy theories and stuff that is just nuts, which is why it requires time and effort to learn truths. But if you don't have time to study these things, then at least have your food storage and low or no debt. And trust that the prophets have urged you to be prepared, for when these 'conspiracy theories' come out in the open.

[NeuroTypical]

They lost $2000 in the stock market last week and they think this is a definite sign that the depression is coming and are about to withdraw everything from their 401K to pay off their debt.

By the way, their actions can be properly categorized as "buy hi, sell low". It's kind of like, well, the exact opposite of what you're supposed to do when investing in the market.

401K plans are not for short term investors. If you just get beside yourself with passion when a recession or depression takes a bite out of your stock, you shouldn't be in the stock market. Stick to a nice FDIC insured savings or money market account - you'll sleep better at night.

My view is: The market goes up, the market goes down, the market goes up again. That seems to be how it's gone for so long. I'm no financial expert.

I have a degree in finance and 20+ years experience in the stock market. You are correct. If you can't live with short term fluctuations, don't own stock.

He recently told his wife that there are no terrorists, that the government was behind 9/11, etc.

..

I said, "It doesn't give any opposing views." He said, "Why would you need it? You're living it."

...

He said, "You can't argue with facts though. You can't argue with the truth." I said, "That's what anti-Mormons say to me.

...

After I gave my opinion, he asked, "Did you listen to the whole thing?"

...

He looked annoyed.

Winston Churchill once defined A fanatic as "one who can’t change his mind and won’t change the subject." Sounds like you did very well standing up to one. If you enjoyed the experience, there's plenty of opportunities to have more. If you did not enjoy yourself, let me tell you - no matter how good you get at debate, no matter how well-read and researched you become about a subject, no matter how good your position and how weak theirs - a fanatic will always give you the exact same experience. And it usually ends up with them getting offended when you fail to jump on their bandwagon.

This amusing comic helps me be less frustrated with such people.

LM

[MorningStar]

I somewhat enjoyed it. I had no hopes of changing his mind, but I liked letting him know that his opinion is not superior to everyone else's. His wife is pretty naive and goes along with whatever he says. I wanted to give them a little preview of what would happen if other people from the ward came over. They think it would be a learning experience. I told them, no, it would cause controversy within the ward and the majority of people are not going to agree with you. I had to repress laughter when he said it wasn't promoting Ron Paul. It sure had a lot of Ron Paul for a movie that wasn't promoting Ron Paul. Oh, but the bit at the end stating he was running for president was added later. The movie was made in 2006. Uh huh. I'm sure Ron Paul had no idea he was running for president two years ago.

I did share my opinion about a certain politician who I saw in an interview the night before. I had't heard him before, but he made me very angry. I won't discuss it here though. :) Thanks for the funny comic!

Drjme,

Didn't I say I'm researching both sides? I am! I went home last night and started looking this stuff up. So their side is saying that the Federal Reserve is unconstitutional. The other side is saying that this went to court around four times and the Supreme Court ruled it was Constitutional. I'll keep reading. :) But, when he claims there are no terrorists and that the government was behind 9/11, that doesn't make one bit of sense to me. And I find it offensive.

[a-train]

Just so everyone is clear, Ezra Taft Benson openly endorsed a book that demonstrated the unconstitutionality of the Federal Reserve and the dangerous corporate interests that hold in contempt the welfare and freedom of the general public as they exert power in Washington.

Are we going to start putting a tin-foil hat on his head? Is he a fanatic?

The Book is:

None Dare Call It A Conspiracy

Of this book (published in 1971) he said: 'I wish that every citizen of every country in the free world and every slave behind the Iron Curtain might read this book.'

Also, go to LDS.org and search 'Secret Combination'. Among statements from Church leaders you can find that President Benson also said: 'A secret combination that seeks to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries is increasing its evil influence and control over America and the entire world.' This was in the Nov. 1988 Ensign. This is not some new secret conspiracy theory.

I actually have members in my ward who think the notions expressed in that book and by President Benson are radical and ridiculous.

What about Moroni's warning of these issues?

Now I can't speak for the family considering the paying off of debts with their savings, but if they are willing to make a sacrifice to be obedient to the commandment to avoid debt, then we should all refrain from any back-biting and honor their efforts to do the will of the LORD.

-a-train

P.S. I got into trouble for mentioning the candidate you guys are talking about and I didn't even mention his candidacy, so watch it.

[Moksha]

Are we going to start putting a tin-foil hat on his head? Is he a fanatic?

Yeah, I remember some of the nutty things my neighbors said when I was a kid based on this kind of thinking. They went door to door telling everybody that putting fluoride in the drinking water would render us into Communists. Obviously they themselves has overdosed on Ezra Taft!

As far as the economy goes, we have piled up a staggering debt due mostly to the War in Iraq. Can we recover or at least keep treading water? We would need to end the war ASAP and work on reducing our balance of trade deficit.

[MorningStar]

Oh, sorry. I thought we were allowed to mention politics as long as we weren't taking a position. :)

I don't doubt there are secret combinations, but I don't believe every theory that is presented to me, especially the really outlandish ones. I don't think it's wrong at all for them to want to get out of debt, but I don't like the fact that they are trying to call everyone over to their house to warn them that there is a depression coming based on a bad stock market experience. We all know about being prepared. Scaring everyone is not going to help. They sent out an invite with several possible evenings and want people to pick a night they can come, not really considering that some people aren't going to agree with the content of the video. They also said they were going to start it with an opening prayer. Prayers are good, but it's like they're trying to make this a non-official ward meeting. I don't think anyone would've appreciated his commentary throughout the movie instead of allowing people to come to their own conclusions. He said, "That there is Alan Greenspan. In my opinion, he is a puppet." It was hard to miss Alan Greenspan as they zoomed in on his mouth moving in slow motion. It was as if they were trying to make him look sinister. Afterwards they asked my opinion about inviting other people over and I had to be honest. This will put people off. Especially since they're telling people it's not political when it is. I don't like to mix this kind of stuff with ward members. We are all members, but we have different views. Some people believe in chiropractors, some don't. Some of us are Democrats and others are Republicans. There is a mix of beliefs within the church. We also have a guy who is trying to rope everyone into his real estate ventures. I don't even like being approached at church about buying Girl Scout cookies. Don't get me wrong. They are yummy.

I believe in conspiracies where companies get people addicted to products to make money, even if it costs them their lives or happiness. That's a pretty obvious one to me. Terrorist plots are conspiracies. Telling me that there are no terrorists makes no sense. I think our unity is strongest when we all have the same goal to be prepared. I don't think we can control what awaits us, but we don't have to be afraid if we are ready.

[a-train]

I could not agree with you more about the issues of a family using the ward roster as a finding pool for support in political or business areas. Amway, Insurance, Tupperware, you name it, members have had big ideas about using the Church as a way to spread some message other than the gospel. This is not only socially repugnant, but against the rules.

-a-train

[a-train]

They went door to door telling everybody that putting fluoride in the drinking water would render us into Communists. Obviously they themselves has overdosed on Ezra Taft!

But did Benson ever say anything about flouridated water leading to Communism? See, this is the trouble. We cannot focus on statements from people that are clearly not associated with President Benson and the issues he brought up.

There are looney members of the Church who may believe in all sorts of wild things. I had a family on my mission try to convince me that a special image of Joseph Smith was in a tree in their front yard. Now, this could have very well been true, but I cannot say that I witnessed it and I therefore don't push the notion.

None of that is important. What IS important is that if there is a real danger spoken of by Church leaders or our governmental leaders we need to take note of it and take appropriate precautions.

On the subject of the FED we have warnings coming from good men throughout our government, including even men who are also leaders of this Church including even Ezra Taft Benson.

Now, we don't know all the details of this secret combination or combinations. If we did, it wouldn't be secret.

So what are we supposed to do about all this? We are supposed to live the gospel and seek out good men of principle and faith to be in our goverment. We are even prompted to run for public office. We are to uphold and follow the constitution and the constitutional law of the land. We must use our political influence to make sure the laws of the land aren't changed to the point of a departure from the spirit of the constitution.

This current election has people glad to hear things brought to the surface that have been blacked out for some time. We Mormons are glad to see new coverage and talk about the Church. Some of it will be skewed and incorrect coverage, but we take it just the same.

The issue of the single-party system of our country and the actual powers that be comes up to the delight of those of us who have known of these things for years, regardless of the misrepresentation and radicalization of it.

There really is a Counsel on Foreign Relations made up of wealthy elites effecting policy and public persuasion toward globalization. They really do have candidates in both parties with seemingly different views who once in office enact the suggested policies of the group. The past three Presidents of the U.S. and many current candidates are indeed members.

There really is an effort in this group to build a North American Union and to create the Amero, a North American currency usable in Canada, the US, and Mexico. They further advocate a policy that would cause these three nations to share a single economy and labor market and to share the issues of continental security rather than focusing on independent national security.

They do not see this as anti-American or unpatriotic. They do not see a North American Parliament as a threat to the powers of the governing bodies of the member nations or the people, but a blessing. They want to paint nationalists who oppose these views as 'tin-foil hat wearers' and those that support them as humanitarian advocates of freedom and general common good throughout all the world.

These are NOT theories, these are the facts.

What we are faced with is the question whether we are happy to endorse the suggestions of the wealthy international elite or do we want this nation to follow a course more traditional. We further have to ask ourselves if we trust the motives of this group.

As someone who has been aware of this group and their efforts for many years, I was downright shocked to see the sudden discussion of these things in the mainstream media and within the election coverage. When I first discovered all this, I was bummed. I was crushed. Many people feel depressed when they realize just how corrupt and bad things are. I think a lot of people hearing about this for the first time are feeling that way and are hoping it is all false.

It is sad, but it is true.

-a-train

[MorningStar]

I could not agree with you more about the issues of a family using the ward roster as a finding pool for support in political or business areas. Amway, Insurance, Tupperware, you name it, members have had big ideas about using the Church as a way to spread some message other than the gospel. This is not only socially repugnant, but against the rules.

-a-train

When I was new in our ward and not even on the ward list yet, I flipped out when the Living Scriptures guy came to our door because someone sent him here. I chewed him out. My second son was less than a week old and I was really, really mad that someone would send him to my door. I think they eventually heard how mad I was, whoever did it. I am not a fan. My sister was in a mall in Utah when someone tried to sell them to her and they asked, "Don't you want to feel the Spirit in your home?"

Funny thing about this last salesman, he didn't have his Mormon lingo down. He said he went to "B University". I think he meant to say "the Y". Imposter Mormon. He went to my friend's house too and said, "I see you have Disney cartoons and computer manuals. Wouldn't you rather have the Living Scriptures?"

Oh yeah, so the guy who showed us the movie last night, he believes that sunscreen causes skin cancer. I have never heard that one before.

[a-train]

When I was new in our ward and not even on the ward list yet, I flipped out when the Living Scriptures guy came to our door because someone sent him here. I chewed him out.

Now now. You know that contention is of the devil.

Funny thing about this last salesman, he didn't have his Mormon lingo down. He said he went to "B University". I think he meant to say "the Y".

You haven't heard of the B? That is where people go who can't get into the Y. You know, its plan B.

Oh yeah, so the guy who showed us the movie last night, he believes that sunscreen causes skin cancer. I have never heard that one before.

Now I am no scientist, but there are quite a few people saying this lately. Google it and you will find that there are actually scientists saying this. Who knows, but I don't see what that has to do with the FED or the CFR. Perhaps your friend thinks that it is part of a conspiracy to make everyone have cancer or something.

Understand that this would be akin to those who say that Mormons believe in flying underwear. There are really Mormons, they do have underwear, they do not have underwear that flies on its own. There is a CFR, they do push international business interests, are one of these interests to give the world cancer through agents in sunscreen? I guess anything is possible, but not that I know of.

-a-train

[MorningStar]

He believes it is an FDA conspiracy. The drug companies make too much money off of cancer treatments and they pay off the FDA and others, so they will tell lies about the sun causing skin cancer. Well one thing I know. It burns me to a crisp. What am I supposed to do about that when I have to be in the sun longer than I should?

I was also reading about it and they said people have drawn that conclusion because fair skinned people with freckles use the most sunscreen. But they are also more likely to be burned by the sun. The people I have met who had skin cancer were the ones who were in the sun unprotected. I haven't met anyone who uses sunblock all the time and got skin cancer. Some people I know even put oil on to make themselves burn faster so they could get the "burn that turns into a tan" to give them a "base coat". Makes me think of Seinfeld when Kramer buttered himself.

Plan B.

[a-train]

Such a conspiracy isn't beyond possiblity, but I certainly don't know. The FDA has definitely approved dangerous products before. What we must do to be humble and teachable is to be honest about what we know and don't know. If someone makes an assumption we cannot verify, a quick roll of the eyes and a sigh based strictly on feasibility is a sign of our pride, not our knowledge.

Who knows, scientists believed cigarettes caused cancer in the middle 1500's. It took 450 years for the public to be convinced. Eyes were rolled and cigarettes were puffed with disgust at the idea.

It is now more than evident that the tobacco industry did all it could to keep the public in denial. The U.S. army gave cigarettes with the rations to our troops in WWII. A soaring smoking trend resulted. My grandfather started smoking in the war. He quit in 1985 when his doctor told him he had lung cancer. He lived another 5 years and then it killed him.

I haven't the slightest idea if sunscreen causes cancer. Perhaps those circulating the idea are wacko, only scientific studies will tell. For now, I doubt there are many studies going on.

Of course, we could just wear long-sleeve shirts and good hats like our grandparents and great-grandparents did. It least that way we will avoid that nasty taste on the back of our tongues that takes a day to go away.

-a-train

[MorningStar]

I think it's more likely that people are terrified of cancer and it makes them feel better to think that they know the way not to get it.

Here's another conspiracy theory another guy in my ward told me, which he absolutely believes. He says that there is asbestos in tampons to make women bleed more so they will need more tampons, spending more on them. I know from experience that this is not true. In fact, just the opposite. And I read they are regulated by the FDA, but of course that means nothing if people are paying them to look the other way .....

I feel like inventing my own conspiracy theory now. Let's see here ...

[Fiannan]

Yeah, I remember some of the nutty things my neighbors said when I was a kid based on this kind of thinking. They went door to door telling everybody that putting fluoride in the drinking water would render us into Communists. Obviously they themselves has overdosed on Ezra Taft!

As far as the economy goes, we have piled up a staggering debt due mostly to the War in Iraq. Can we recover or at least keep treading water? We would need to end the war ASAP and work on reducing our balance of trade deficit.

Not going to happen as long as people buy "made in China".

[NeuroTypical]

Just so everyone is clear, Ezra Taft Benson openly endorsed a book that demonstrated the unconstitutionality of the Federal Reserve and the dangerous corporate interests that hold in contempt the welfare and freedom of the general public as they exert power in Washington.

Just out of curiosity, exactly <when> did ETB endorse this book?

He became an apostle in 1943, president of the 12 in 1973, and president of the church in 1985. None Dare Call it Conspiracy was published in 1971. So I figure it's important to know when ETB endorsed the book. As I google it, it appears that he made his endorsement on the back cover - and his name appeared as "Secretary of Agriculture" - NOT "Apostle of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

I'm aware of President Benson's political notions, as they're often sent to me by people of a particular set of religious and political beliefs. But as far as I can tell, the vast majority of his politically extreme statements came BEFORE he bacame prohphet, and many of them came before he became president of the 12. In other words, the more of a church leader President Benson became, the less and less he talked about this stuff.

Now, you can interpret that in various ways, and I'm not claiming his opinions are wrong. I just want to clarify - No, a prophet has NOT told us to read this book. An apostle has not told us to read this book. The Seceretary of Agriculture in 1971 told us to read it. He happened to be an apostle at the time, but he seemed to make it quite clear he was lending his government credentials to the book, not his apostolic credentials.

Are we going to start putting a tin-foil hat on his head? Is he a fanatic?

If I read correctly, I introduced you to the term 'tinfoil hat'. Glad it's giving you as much fun as it gives me.

But no - there's a big difference between a tinfoil hat fanatic, and someone who has firm, passionate opinions about stuff and expresses them. The latter can change his mind, temper his passions, and talk about other things. The latter doesn't categorize people based on how closely they agree with him.

President Benson also said: 'A secret combination that seeks to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries is increasing its evil influence and control over America and the entire world.' This was in the Nov. 1988 Ensign. This is not some new secret conspiracy theory.

Well, since he declined in that talk to tell us what that SC was, aren't you assuming that you and he are talking about the same thing? (The talk is here, by the way.)

I actually have members in my ward who think the notions expressed in that book and by President Benson are radical and ridiculous.

I haven't read the book, but it's entirely possible that I might agree with that member. Because again, "President Benson" never expressed those notions. "Secretary of Agriculture" Benson did.

If you want to post quotes like the one above, spoken across the pulpit at General Conference - go for it. Let's see how much luck you have. I think most of his political beliefs never found utterance across the podium. And in absence of stuff we can find on lds.org, I would suggest you re-think the tactic of claiming an inspired prophet of God is telling us what you're telling us.

LM

[MorningStar]

To add to that, LM, I would expect emphasis from later prophets on this subject, but I don't recall President Hinckley ever identifying the Federal Reserve as a secret combination. He has told us to be prepared, to vote our conscience, etc. If we need to be warned about something specific, I expect it will come from the prophet instead of someone in my ward who is in a panic.

[a-train]

OK, so then you acknowledge that 'a secret combination that seeks to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries is increasing its evil influence and control over America and the entire world.'

If I understand correctly, you are saying that President Benson could have been mistaken in 1971 and the secret combination he mentioned in his talk could have been a different secret combination than the one outlined in that book. Does it matter?

Does this make the CFR all good? Perhaps President Benson wasn't talking about a South American drug cartel, but does that make them OK? Are we not going to resist a group of people who are leading us away from the principles of the constitution and from our own personal liberty simply because the President of the Church doesn't point them out specifically?

Are we really going to wait for the First Presidency to outline the specifics of our domestic enemies to freedom while our liberty is legislated away with bills like the Patriot Act?

-a-train

[a-train]

You know what,

Watch President Benson here:

The transcription of this talk is: HERE

This is a fantastic talk for members of the Church to read in an election season.

As you can see, he recommended None Dare Call It Conspiracy within his talk, but the endorsement was omitted in the Ensign. I'm not interested in speculating why it was omitted, President Benson said it from the pulpit in General Conference. Now, I know he was not yet an an apostle, but does that matter?

-a-train

[ztodd]

I know he was not yet an an apostle yet, but does that matter?

-a-train

Yes.

[a-train]

Yes.

OK, so since he was not yet an apostle: we shouldn't take his counsel and seek out good men who support the constitution and vote for them and support them? Because he was not an apostle: there is no corruption in Washington for us to avoid supporting? Because he was not yet in the twelve: his quotes of scripture and previous church leaders are incorrect?

What is everyone's apprehension here? Has anyone read that book he mentioned? Does anyone even know what is in it or what advice it carries?

Tell me precisely what it is about President Benson's talk or the statements he quoted from past leaders that should be discounted. I can find nothing in his statements that contradict other leaders or the scriptures. What am I missing here?

-a-train